Suggestion - Option to disable trickjumping

[xkvtztvkx]

I'd like to see a server option that disabled trickjumping. Obviously trickjumping is a large part of the quake3 culture so this option shouldn't be turned on by default. This would be just be an option for server admins who would like to have a server sutiable for players who haven't learned trickjumping.

Now I'm guessing there are going to be a lot of angry posts about this so I'll just stress this point again... this option should be off by default.

Anyone have any idea how this would be implemented?

[PopeJo]

what do you mean by "trickjumping" ?

- strafing to gain speed
- rocket jumps
- plasma climbing
- plasma jumps
- wallwalking
- using overbounces
- teamtricking (or support teammembers escaping in ctf by spamming their back) with
 --lg
 --plasma
 --gauntlet
 --rocket
 --rail

or do you mean by "trickjumping" simply movements. like the bridge to rail jump on dm6?

or do you esentially want a different game xkvtztvkx?

[MIOW]

Did you get inspired by this post?

Anyway, I have to disappoint you, this is something complicated to do, not as simple as removing vertex.

This would be just be an option for server admins who would like to have a server sutiable for players who haven't learned trickjumping.

And will never learn.

or do you esentially want a different game xkvtztvkx?

Nexuiz, where you gain speed by simply jumping forward instead of strafe jumping... or Sauerbraten.

[andrewj]

Anyway, I have to disappoint you, this is something complicated to do

Actually it is easy to disable strafe jumping.  The PM_Accelerate() code in bg_pmove.c has Carmack's "fixed" version commented out.

[MIOW]

Uber fail.

[Bane]

Actually there is a server where there is usually not any trick jumping but it can be done there ( meaning nothing is turned off by default)this it is a beginner server for CTF called ROFL For Beginners Players. Also trick jumping is very helpful in CTF games like in Sago’s Castle hiding on that upper part until your flag is returned.

[sago007]

It would make no sense. The current maps expects the player to be able to use accelerated jumps. I have tried to disable it and play on ordinary maps and the jump pads broke in most maps and all the maps felt large and empty.

With jumping disabled players would be never discover strafejumping. It is not an on/off thing it comes gradually.

The exceptions was the Quake 1 maps because they where created before strafejumping was discovered and actually works better without.

It is easy to disable in the code for one very good reason: mods. Realism mods would just not work or mods that required the map layout to make a difference (assault is an example, see earlier thread). Mods that used the realistic physics option would need to make that permanent or there maps would break if the setting was flipped the other way.

[Falkland]

what do you mean by "trickjumping" ?
[...]
- teamtricking (or support teammembers escaping in ctf by spamming their back) with
 --lg
 --plasma
 --gauntlet
 --rocket
 --rail

This is easy and it doesn't need a bug fix . Simply set g_friendlyfire to 1

I'd like to see a server option that disabled trickjumping. Obviously trickjumping is a large part of the quake3 culture so this option shouldn't be turned on by default. This would be just be an option for server admins who would like to have a server sutiable for players who haven't learned trickjumping.

Now I'm guessing there are going to be a lot of angry posts about this so I'll just stress this point again... this option should be off by default.

Anyone have any idea how this would be implemented?

Removing trickjumping means also saying "adios" to almost the Q3 3rd part maps are all designed for making use of trickjumping techniques which are almost accepted as a feature instead of beeing considered bugs.

It implies also to change the procedure for designing new maps , renewing measures , jumppads .... in few words ... breaking maps and the procedures to build them ( eg you MUST patch also GtkRadiant ) .

I proposed a better solution that should make all happy but it was ignored as most of the good suggestion posted here by many others : the introduction of new or modified gameplays ( VQ3 , UT2k , CPM , VQ3_WITHOUT_TRICKJUMPING ... ) and to have them selectable by a server cvar and eventually votable (eg .... /callvote mode VQ3_WITHOUT_TRICKJUMPING )

or do you esentially want a different game xkvtztvkx?

Bingo !!!

[HITMAN]

I proposed a better solution that should make all happy

How about learning strafejumping? Its not hard at all.

[kernel panic]

Heh, yeah. There's nothing technical to discuss. It's an absurd idea. A solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist, never existed and will only exist if something like this was implemented.

This "OMG will nobody think of the noobs!!!" bulls.h.i.t is getting REALLY boring already.

[xkvtztvkx]

or do you esentially want a different game xkvtztvkx?

Well, the option of a different game. Sometimes I like to play deatmatch or ctf and I find trickjumping very useful for those types of games and maps. However I've also played tactical shooters like counterstrike and it would be nice to have that kind of experience in an open source game like OA. It wouldn't need an entire mod, just the right kind of maps. In this case I think trickjumping wouldn't really fit the gametype. Tactical planning would work better when all players on the maps were moving at the same speed. I reckon a server with trickjumping disabled and the right kind of maps could provide an interesting variation on the game.

Also trick jumping is very helpful in CTF games like in Sago’s Castle hiding on that upper part until your flag is returned.

I wouldn't recommend using it on ctf servers.

It would make no sense. The current maps expects the player to be able to use accelerated jumps.

This is simply an option for server admins to choose, if they do so then they should pick maps that it suits.

It is easy to disable in the code for one very good reason: mods. Realism mods would just not work or mods that required the map layout to make a difference

That's pretty much what I was thinking. Not a realism mod, but maps that are designed for that kind of gameplay.

Removing trickjumping means also saying "adios" to almost the Q3 3rd part maps are all designed for making use of trickjumping techniques which are almost accepted as a feature instead of beeing considered bugs.
)

This setting wouldn't be for general use. That's why I said it should be off by default.

It implies also to change the procedure for designing new maps , renewing measures , jumppads .... in few words ... breaking maps and the procedures to build them ( eg you MUST patch also GtkRadiant ) .

I think you are exaggerating here. Sure, jumps distances would need to be a bit short, but to suggest that gtkradiant would need to be patched to do so is very strange.

And will never learn.

Not everyone wants too. That's their choice to make.

Uber fail.

Someone wants to the option to play a slightly different game from you and this is your response? Do you realise how narrow minded and judgemental you sound?

Heh, yeah. There's nothing technical to discuss. It's an absurd idea. A solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist, never existed and will only exist if something like this was implemented.

I simply asked for an option to customize gameplay. Something that was off by default. If someone chooses to host a server then why shouldn't they be allowed to set the game up how they like. I think this is a pretty innoffensive idea and you seem to be overreacting.

Actually it is easy to disable strafe jumping.  The PM_Accelerate() code in bg_pmove.c has Carmack's "fixed" version commented out.

Thanks for that andrewj. I'll have a look at that.

[kernel panic]

or do you esentially want a different game xkvtztvkx?

Well, the option of a different game. Sometimes I like to play deatmatch or ctf and I find trickjumping very useful for those types of games and maps. However I've also played tactical shooters like counterstrike and it would be nice to have that kind of experience in an open source game like OA. It wouldn't need an entire mod, just the right kind of maps. In this case I think trickjumping wouldn't really fit the gametype. Tactical planning would work better when all players on the maps were moving at the same speed. I reckon a server with trickjumping disabled and the right kind of maps could provide an interesting variation on the game.

But that's not how you sold it in the first place:

This would be just be an option for server admins who would like to have a server sutiable for players who haven't learned trickjumping.

See, in recent times (although this is not at all new) there was quite a bit of controversy regarding 'pro' features in OA, with the developer in chief himself trolling in her own forums about this issue. And seriously, we are really burned by now. I remember somebody joking about disabling strafe jumping in one of these threads. It's no surprise that you got the answers you got.

Regarding your CS OA mod, go for it, although I doubt it will be simple given the weapon set of OA. Also, maps would obviously need to be created ad hoc. But you are a bit of a mapper, so...

[MIOW]

And will never learn.

Not everyone wants too. That's their choice to make.

New players might go for a wrong choice and such things will have a negative impact on their learning curve in the future.

Uber fail.

Someone wants to the option to play a slightly different game from you and this is your response? Do you realise how narrow minded and judgemental you sound?

You feel offended?

That was in response to andrewj's post, meaning I didn't know of existence of easy way of removing sj.

EDIT: fixed typo.

[RMF]

Well of course an admin should be able to make the server as he likes, but I would never play this server and many many with me. It is more something for a new game, or at least a mod instead of an option.

What you are talking about pretty much exists btw, it is called CoD2. (that game is actually a modified q3 engine, and there is no trickjumping or whatsoever). If you like to play like that, play cod. Oh and you can take some campers with you, they are better with slow moving and not trickjumping targets, and we don't like em here so the perfect solution ^^

(no offence, it's not that i want you or anyone away, but openarena and the more quakelike games are just played for this and can't without it - and because of that as you may have noticed ppl don't like the idea)

[Bane]

Xkvtztvkx you bring up tactical planning and people going the same speed to me this sounds like an army type game and maybe you should play those because they seem like more of what you are looking for in a game.  Also as RMF said movement in this game is why people like it. Unlike some shooters it has not been watered down and made slower or changed to be easier to learn it is one where it requires you to put at least some time into to get better unlike some where it just requires an afternoon or a quick flip throught a manual.

[Udi]

I think Falkland's idea is the closest to ideal. But there's already such a mod: oaplusplus and you can play it on Meowfest. Just callvote the physics you want. It even has the Painkiller(?) physics which I am not that familiar with, but it seemed that strafing is not possible with that.

Also you can find an OA+True Combat server again, it's the closest to realism out there. Too bad the source was lost before it could gone standalone with ioquake3...

[xkvtztvkx]

But that's not how you sold it in the first place.

Yeah, bad move on my part. I thought that if I made a post about how I need this feature so that I could make tactical shooter type maps then it would get derailed by people arguing about how openarena isn't that kind of game. I just wanted to keep my post simple. If I'd been aware of the previous controversy I would have known better.

See, in recent times (although this is not at all new) there was quite a bit of controversy regarding 'pro' features in OA, with the developer in chief himself trolling in her own forums about this issue. And seriously, we are really burned by now. I remember somebody joking about disabling strafe jumping in one of these threads. It's no surprise that you got the answers you got.

I actually think my suggestion would alleviate this situation. People who like trickjumping would run standard servers, people who had a problem with it would run servers with it turned off. It would be up to personal choice and everyone is happy. A nice touch would be to have an icon in the server browser that shows how this is set, to avoid people joining servers that didn't suit them.

You feel offended?

I feel stupid, more like. I failed to realise that you were replying to andrewj pointing out how easy it is to "fix" trickjumping. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

New players might go for a wrong choice and such things will have a negative impact on their learning curve in the future.

I really think this option would be a minority choice, but I agree that it could cause confusion. Do you think my idea about having an icon on the server browser would help avoid this problem?

Well of course an admin should be able to make the server as he likes, but I would never play this server and many many with me.

Definitely. The vast majority of people would prefer standard quake3 physics. This would be an option for the minority that didn't.

It is more something for a new game, or at least a mod instead of an option.

Maybe in the future a mod would be an option, but for now a server cvar is all I'm looking for. (Preferably with an icon in the server browser as a warning).

Xkvtztvkx you bring up tactical planning and people going the same speed to me this sounds like an army type game and maybe you should play those because they seem like more of what you are looking for in a game.

I do play those games, but they aren't open source. Urban terror is one I play a bit, which is based on the quake3 engine, but the game code is proprietry and you aren't allowed to modify the players or weapons.

I think Falkland's idea is the closest to ideal. But there's already such a mod: oaplusplus and you can play it on Meowfest. Just callvote the physics you want.

I like the idea of being able to callvote physics. Nice to have stuff like that integrated into the game instead of relying on mods.

Also you can find an OA+True Combat server again, it's the closest to realism out there. Too bad the source was lost before it could gone standalone with ioquake3...

Might be fun to play, but it's closed/lost source, which is of no interest to me. I only want to work with open source projects, which is why I like openarena. A lot of people may complain about various aspects of it, but noone can deny it's strong stance on GPL compatibility.

[Cacatoes]

I think variety is the way to go. The more a free software project can deal with it the better.
In our case I think a decent server browser would solve one of the most important issue, with appropriate filters people could easily identify the game type they are looking for.
Meanwhile, the core of Openarena can stick to its direction of being a game similar to Quake 3 without being altered.

[MIOW]

New players might go for a wrong choice and such things will have a negative impact on their learning curve in the future.

I really think this option would be a minority choice, but I agree that it could cause confusion. Do you think my idea about having an icon on the server browser would help avoid this problem?

Maybe, still my point is valid. New players might not know what to choose.

Also, if it would be at least nexuiz-alike more noob-friendly jump-forward-to-gain-speed thing it could make some sense...
But  I doubt it's worth to split already small community into two different gameplays for a such questionable benefit.

If it would be like tactical and/or realistic fps game in game, it might be worth, but then it will also require to change weapons.