OpenArena Message Boards

Hey all!

First off, congrats on a successful 0.7 (and 0.7.1) launch! It really looks like you're turning OA into an even better game than it already was, and that's quite impressive. :)

I had some questions about the content in the latest version.


What happened between then and now? (specifically referring to this (http://mods.moddb.com/gallery/image/65174/) and this (http://mods.moddb.com/gallery/image/65168/) and this (http://mods.moddb.com/gallery/image/65166/)) I understand the nearly-topless anime chick was an April fools joke, but as I was preparing to send a horde of early-teen kids to download the latest OA release for our upcoming LAN party, I was a little surprised to see how things had seemingly so drastically changed.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate that the build process (http://openarena.ws/svn/Build-pieced.bat) separates these models out into pak2-players-mature.pk3 -- I think that's fantastic. :) But I think I'm just most surprised that these seem to be included (and enabled) by default. It's also disappointing that images from them dominate much of the current image gallery. I suggest that it would be wiser to make such content available as a downloadable or enable-able extra rather than include it in the default base package.

This is not an issue of cg_forcemodels=1 (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=878.msg6241#msg6241) so much as it's an issue of distributing this content to youth groups, when parents are already leery of video games and concerned with the content that their kids are playing. Me telling them to download the game for the next party and seeing the image gallery plastered with topless women does not go over well.

This is just one opinion, take it for what it's worth. I've been a big fan of OA since I first tried it out, and I'm really quite amazed and impressed to see how much excellent work has been done in the past year -- you guys are amazing, and I am one of the many who really appreciate your hard work.

I would love to see this game continue to grow in seeing even wider popularity. If you are trying to get more people playing OA, having such content included in the game by default will prevent people like me from continuing to recommend the game to others. I'm not offended in any way -- I really appreciate all of the help that you all have been in the past. I'm just letting you know that you've lost a big part of what originally attracted users such as myself to the game.

I'm very open to suggestions.

Thanks again!

Respectfully,
clint

the readme states you can delete the players-mature.pk3 file and that's why it's separated into that. Also isn't it kind of redundant bandwidth killing to have them all out to go get that big 250mb file? You could probably pass around a version without this pk3. It wasn't supposed to be surprising as we did already warn about such character being created months before it happened.

They don't really dominate the gallery. You'd have turn to page 4 or 5 to see most of them. Tony and Beret were rushed under the release date (the meshes are fine though, skins could use polish)

Be grateful I don't bundle the 'uncut' pack by default, nor is that really available right now :P

also another note, ayumi/neko isn't in the mature pk3, as i'm unsure on what a fur covered person would be in

yeah i didnt get the titty ball thing either... is it for ratings? bad publicity is good publicity? :P

it has nothing to do with publicity honestly (we have plenty of that before the girl already), it's because q3a has a similar character to 'match' on

when it comes to publicity in games, people are more interested in seeing a bloom/water filled screenshot (defining 'next gen') rather than a pair of mammaries.

Hey fromhell -- thanks for the reply!


I think that's a great step in the right direction -- I just don't think that it's a good idea to have it on by default. It seems to me that people who try to avoid such visuals appreciate it when they are respectfully turned off ahead of time, and people who want to have inflated bouncing breasts are quite happy to jump through a hoop or two in order to get them (maybe it would even let them appreciate it more when they got it). If it's already partitioned out this far (with the separate pk3), it seems to make more sense (from my admittedly biased standpoint) to put it in the readme.txt as far as what to do in order to turn it on.


Sorry, my first post was misleading. Yes, I normally create a custom ISO of everything for distribution at the LAN party, but it's tradition for us to send out the names of the games that we're going to be playing with the invite so that people can check them out and warm up on them if they so choose. As it stands at the moment, I'm a wee bit leery of promoting the OA url in the invites.


I do indeed remember some of the warnings (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=329.msg1966#msg1966) that you gave -- I admit that I didn't think that the aforementioned "busty women" would go quite as far as topless women (though I'm sure I missed some of the more specific foreshadowings that you made).


You're right -- the new models primarily flood pages 4 and 5. Pages 1 and 2 each have a screenshot of topless/string-covering-nipples near the top, with this image (http://mods.moddb.com/gallery/image/66988/) showing up for me as the first screenshot seen when entering the gallery section.


heh. :)


Interesting question. Yeah, furries are a bit odd duck. Thanks for the heads up -- I'll keep that in mind if I make my own distro of OA for a party, so that I can take it out of the normal pk3.


Anyways, I feel bad for being such a prude -- that really isn't my intention. This is your show, your game, and I'm thankful to you all for providing it -- you've done an excellent job. :) I'm just trying to give you feedback, and let you know why I haven't promoted OA since the 0.7 release.

Thankyou for your time.

Cheers!

--clint

You, of course, are aware that the ESRB gave Quake 3: Arena an M rating (17+) for its re-release in Ultimate Quake and that the point of the game is to run around and blow people up, which isn't really family friendly (unless maybe you are the Manson family, but that's a different topic :P ).  That being said, I don't think anyone is going to be corrupted by seeing half naked women run around blowing people up and accusing people that blow them up of misogyny.

Also, while I can't speak for lei, I am less willing to do anything to fix this non-problem when the only people complaining about it are male.

yeah but what if ESRB steps in ya knows? cuz kids need parents permission to buy, but not for this, any one can download this game...   if anything, i kinda liked how it was like a kids q3a before : P

Do you hide National Geographic from kids because they show photographs of topless women from cultures that respect the female form and have no puritanical hang ups of women being topless?

Well, I suppose I'll go ahead and complain, then.  :)  (I'm female)

I like LAN parties.  I like running around and shooting stuff.  I was really happy with OpenArena when I first found it a while ago, when the only female model was that creepy Asian chick.  I liked that she was completely clothed, yet very creepy.

So, when I was thinking about what games to bring to the next LAN party the other day, I was incredibly put off by all the nude models.  Hair != clothing (hair is not equal to clothing).  I will not download this and promote it.  The scene in my mind goes like this: "Hey (insert name of friend), there's a really cool game - it's multiplayer, there are some good maps, and it's a lot of fun to play.  Oh, and, um, delete that players-mature.pk3 file.  Don't look at it."  So let's say that my friend doesn't delete it.  His/her parents see him/her playing the game with those unsightly models running around.  "Whoa, son/daughter.  Where'd you get that game?"  "Uh, Mrs. ------ sent me the link."  Yeah.  Let's see me squirm out of that one.

Let's see, on the other hand, the situation I would prefer: "Hey (insert name of friend), there's a really cool game - it's multiplayer, there are some good maps, and it's a lot of fun to play.  Here's the download link."  I would likely, at this point, warn him/her that there are some unsightly models in some of the other packages that I don't recommend.  So, someone who decides to go against my advice would have to actively go against it, rather than passively forgetting to do something I asked them to do.  So, let's say in scenario #2, that the parents come in and see the unsightly models.  "Whoa, son/daughter.  Where'd you get that game?"  "Uh, Mrs. ------ sent me the link."  So, they come beating their way to my door with the torches and sickles, and they say, "What are you doing giving my kids these immoral games?"  And I can honestly say, "Well, Mr. and Mrs. -----, if that's what you saw in the game, then your child went and downloaded that himself.  I had nothing to do with it."

I think I saw somewhere that the proposed solution is to package it up myself and distribute that.  While that's perhaps a short-term fix, I'm not going to bother.  I respected OpenArena quite a bit when I first found it, because, not only was it open source, and looked like it was well on the way for developing good gameplay, maps, etc., it also was something I could heartily recommend to any family who wanted to get together for a fun little LAN party, with no qualms, no alteration.  Just, "hey, download this," and away we go.  If OpenArena is no different than any other FPS, then I might as well go and play the more polished, professionally developed Unreal, etc.  So, at this point, I'm not going to promote OpenArena, as it stands now, among friends, for the aforementioned reasons.

I won't go into as much depth as far as distortion of women (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U).  Don't get me started on the insidious effects of changing men's expectations of women.

Thanks!

I'm for titties, it's nothing wrong.

Then you have a right to complain about representations of the feminine body in the game. 


What is family friendly about running around and blowing people up?  Also you are aware that Unreal has a far less family friendly aspect to it, or have you never bothered with the "sexy" announcer? 

Anyway, there is a content system in the works that will (hopefully) make this entire argument a non-issue and it doesn't involve deleting content.  However there is no guarantee that some kid won't just check the box in the menu and have his/her parents blow up and torch your house in puritanical fury.  Yet there is nothing stopping children from doing that in Unreal Tournament, either.


Can't be any worse than convincing people of the need for full equality across the spectrum (GLBT equality, Gender equality, Racial equality, Class equality, etc.) ;)

I have to agree with HanClinto and tonnyx. I'd also add that it simply seems tasteless, and for me it's really takes away from the game. I understand you wanted to parody the Q3A character (which I don't think was this ridiculous) but I think you could've chosen something different.

It doesn't really offend me so much as it makes me roll my eyes and want to give up on hoping to see some style here.

So why not post a list of everything that you don't like and offer suggestions on how to improve them?

Don't forget the bot chat language too.   

This reminds me of a thought to replace all the blood with water and impacts with foam darts.

also don't confuse 'scantily clad' with 'topless', shes not naked  :( this kind of 'nudity' is actually acceptable in like a T rated game (see DarkStalkers). They have as much bits as Barbie(r) dolls. As for the animation she's a bit bouncy but not as exaggerated as anything in Dead or Alive.       Not really made for 'exploitation of women' in mind actually. I'm female and I like the character myself and do prefer using it (angelyss/dark in particular)

Maybe I should put a warning on the site or something, but not enforce it

(http://www.rudcrustage.com/metroid.gif)

maybe (http://openarena.ws/17plus.gif) sticking these around should be enough for now

Hey all -- thanks for the responses.

I don't want to raise a huge row over this issue -- this isn't my show, I'm just a fan and promoter of the game. One of the primary reasons that I promoted OA was because it was considerably better than Unreal Tournament in the area of sexuality.

I don't know about Tonnyx or others, but when I was talking about characters being "topless", I was referring to the spider woman. I would tend to agree with Tonnyx, that "hair != clothes" -- and so in that regard, I contend that the spider lady is topless.

The two-pieces-of-string-for-a-shirt is another matter, as a fairly minimalistic sort of dominatrix outfit.

I initially was promoting OA because I was really happy with how good of a game it was, and how it didn't need to reduce itself to a booth-babed E3 to sell itself.

A sexual model need not have camel toe (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=781.0) in order to be effective. This is why so much of pornography is not full nudity -- the veiled allure is generally more provocative than the exposed reality.



I suppose I'm just wondering what the design guidelines for the project are. fromhell, you said:
I agree -- a topless spider chick is not quite the same thing as a triple-breasted angel. But it seems fairly similar -- how close to the line are you hoping to go?

You've said that there isn't going to be any nudity in OA. Whether or not it is *technically* nudity is always up for nauseatingly-pedantic debate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy). "Nudity" is not the issue, as dmn_clown's signature rhetoric so deftly alludes. Of course Mikey's David is not pornography! Still, could someone use it as such? They certainly could. Conversely, could someone use a nude pinup as something other than pornography? They certainly could -- it could be used as anatomy reference for biology or some such thing.

I think a lot of this comes back to the question of intent --  "Why is such content included in the game?"

If I were to say "there will be no nudity in this game" -- I would mean that the game is not going to have any images that blatantly try to sexually arouse through immodest use of the human form.

However, it sounds like the standard that OA is following up until this point says "there will be no nudity in this game" to mean "this game will technically be able to be PG-13 with regards to sexuality". At least, that's the only way that I can gel past OA guidelines I've read with the new 0.7 content.

If that is what you mean, then that's not saying much at all. PG-13 movies stereotypically push the line as far as they can go without technically crossing it. They're the annoying little brother who holds their finger as close to you as possible without actually making contact saying "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!" This says things like, "She's not actually nude -- her nipple is never seen!" or "Sure you can see her nipple through her wet t-shirt, but it's not showing!" or "She's wearing latex paint (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/08/MystiqueinX3.jpg)! It's not technically nudity!"

Give me a break. It's not the issue of nudity -- the issue is of intent.

I think that skin and nakedness can be powerful images from an artistic standpoint, but I haven't seen too many uses that I felt did that well (28 Days Later is one of the few recent good example usages that I can think of right now). The majority of the time, it feels like it's used as shameless fanservice using butts and boobs to try and appeal to our baser instincts and popularize something that otherwise wouldn't stand on its own. It's like hiring a busty bikini-clad woman to advertise a restaurant -- you wouldn't do that for a quality family-friendly sports pub if it's already doing well, but it's what we would expect from places like Hooters. We already know that OA is a great game without relying on sex to sell it -- why cheapen what is already here? As other users have pointed out in this thread and in the last one (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=329.0), OA has a chance to really stand out in this area as a good multiplayer FPS, and be a fun game that people of many ages can enjoy together -- I think that's part of the power of games, and it's one reason why I promote these as good friendship-building activities.

(I'm going to try and nip the violence issue in the bud, since it has been mentioned a few times. I'd kindly ask that if you want to talk about that issue (which is an important one), that we start a new thread -- I'd please prefer to stay on the topic of sexuality here.)

Dmn_clown -- to answer your call for helpful suggestions, I would propose that OA adopt a clear set of standards and stick to them as a rallying point to quell further discussions. I don't enjoy bringing this topic up repeatedly, and I imagine it's one that others get tired of as well. I thought there was a standard with the "there will be no nudity" thing, but apparently I misunderstood how that would be played out. Given that other people were disappointingly surprised at the turn of direction in 0.7, it seems that I'm not the only one who misunderstood the intent of the project's "standards".

I would propose that OA adopts a standard that says something like "base-pack humanoid forms will be modeled and textured in attire that is not blatantly sexual". Content that is otherwise should be available as a downloadable expansion that must be intentionally obtained and installed.

While that's what I would like to see, I can't say I wouldn't be surprised if others didn't go for that set of standards, but I think that adopting such a wide-appealing standard for the base install could really help OA see wider adoption.

Thanks for your time and your attention -- it is appreciated.

Respectfully,
clint

I do not want to make a user account for myself so I write with W1ZrD's account since I am his girlfriend.

I don't play the game very much but I do play occasionally so that gives me the right to give my opinion. I like the people who play the Open Arena game and I play because it is nice people here and that is also the reason that I play the game. I simply play because it is fun, nothing else. And I want to keep playing the game as long as it stays fun. Of course I can only speak for myself when I say this, but I feel ridiculed by some of the models in the game. Not because I am a woman, not because I am over 17 and not because I am blond with breasts, but because I simply do not understand the whole idea why people want to use, or even have, these models that are obviously designed with some boys deepest and darkest fantasies coming true, in mind. I thought the purpose of the game was to be running around in an arena where you are supposed to disintegrate your opponents with an arsenal of weapons. What I see is people discussing who has the biggest breasts on their model, while all I want to do is to play the game. I was following some players while waiting for my turn to play and they were standing comparing their models exaggerated proportions with each other. When that was done and over with, then it went on to try and take a peek under the skirt of the Kyonshi model, after that it was time to find some holes in the Jenna models jeans and t-shirt. What is wrong with you people?

I do realize that this is individual stupidity but I really do not see the argument, or logic, behind having some completely random models all pushed in to a game that simply makes it look like an unorganized distortion of teenage boys wet dreams. I would doubt that we would ever have muscular firemen dressed in nothing but skimpy shorts in the same place as the Angelyss model.
/Linda

When Arachna was being skinned I had a couple (http://openarena.ws/crap/arach-top1.jpg) of ideas (http://openarena.ws/crap/arach-top2.jpg) for her top, but no one (in IRC) liked them as they 'break the character' and such.

She was also made within one week before the release (a rushed model in a bit less than 2 days) so there wasn't much time for secondary decisions to make that promised 7/7 date.

The intent wasn't to get anyone riled up honestly. Her character is an outlandish elf with an intent to kill like everyone else, plus there's nothing the hair is hiding anyway. Most of my focus actually went onto the face, trying to make it NOT look like Angelyss.

Unreal on the other hand had actual nudity in it, there's even a breast gib. UT2003/4 is a lot more clean however. There's nothing in the ESRB content descriptor of that game that warn of this. Ditto for RTCW, in which has a female zombie with an exposed breast for example.

EDIT: lol, i think you just ran into a bunch of random pervs on a server. Not all players are like that really. Most don't care and have forcemodel on anyway :(

There's the Beret character, which is pretty man enough though he appears kind of small heh. I also almost forgot about Gargoyle as well, especially for the fact that the original model had a penis.

Ok, I'll redo the chat language so that everything is life affirming, no one's feelings will be hurt, and there will be no suggestion of sex violence or rock and roll, the gibs will be replaced with confetti, and gargoyle will be given pants.  Cause dammit someone needs to think of the children.

*sigh*

Hey, it was no problem for doom3
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/kramwartap/DM3_vagaryREF.jpg)

(My two cents -- yeah I know "go back to GTKRadiant" ^^)

I don't believe it's relevant to compare OA with commercial productions as the ESRB (the S.E.L.L. or PEGI) are (weirdly) rating video games content before they hit stores. I also believe Doom3's spider women is closer to demon than human and that's why no one cares -- like having naked IMP in Doom never bothered anyone -- that's my point of view, I never said it was the only reason (plus Doom3 model isn't attractive at all -- attraction may be another reason, like "28 days later" example)
Meanwhile, I can understand both parts. However, it makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable because it's a religious/cultural matter: why can't you see some parts of the skin while no one bother to see what's UNDER the skin? And... Wait ! Those women don't have their hair covered?!
I agree with Linda about this:

I don't mind nudity, I don't mind breasts, but I hardly see the connection with the arena.
I'd like to propose something: let's make screenshots of "inconvenient models" and try to paint over a little bit to find a good compromise (although, I know there are "more important" things to care about). It's just a proposition.



(;))

Yes, give the girls a fireman, and give us something like this

http://www.kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=2916

She is practicing strafe jumping.

no way am i giving oa ff7's Tifa. Besides, she's already available for quake3

rough sketch for you supermatic.
(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9200/newlookzy4.th.png) (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newlookzy4.png)
i did the new clothes, hair and eyes, but the model is openarena's anglelyss, pretty much unmodified apart from the subsurf.

the tifa model that leileilol mentioned is available on ioquake3's site. here's the link for the model page...
http://ioquake3.org/?page=models
...and here's a direct link for tifa...
http://ioquake3.org/files/models2/q3mdl-tifa.zip

Thank you very much.

[off-topic]
Would I be allowed to say what I think about this, or are there certain forum rules preventing me to do so, causing posts to become deleted?
[/off-topic]

Mystical forces mate. ;)

Excuse me for going off topic.

I'm waiting for someone to animate a video staring Angelyss and Sergei along the lines of Fritz the Cat...

I'm waiting for someone to respond to the unaddressed on-topic comments.

Remove the mature pak and then you won't be scarred for life by modeled flesh.  If you don't like that solution, sorry.

It has been said before that OA would never include nudity in its games, and that it wouldn't go so far as to include bizarre sexual stuff. That was stated as clear OA policy.

That's all I wanted to know -- if the OA team was officially changing this previous policy to include nudity (and blatantly sexually-driven content) as modus operandi.

--clint

Question is, is there even a stated policy for OA any longer?
The reason why 0.6 didn't have any controversy in regards to nudity could be because the previous female model was not directly created as an OA project.
http://virtualworlds.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Jkm_female_1_redirect.png (http://virtualworlds.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Jkm_female_1_redirect.png)
This is the only official policy/standard I can find about this project but surely there must be more, I simply can't find it.

It has been made clear that the models in question are not nude, but I have yet to see anything that is sexually driven, you are going to have to spell that one out.

I'm afraid you can't say what you really thinking, she is watching you.

..but the question is really, who is she?
If we talk about main developers forum posts (read a few posts up) then it would be a correct statement, but if we refer to the official Open Arena IRC channel and it's discussions, then we don't know if he is she, or she is he.
If we talk about my mother, then I know she is a she and I listen carefully to her since I respect her.

Fine. Topless. fromhell agreed that the model was topless, he merely said that it was a rushed model and they didn't find anything they liked in time for the release, so instead of pulling the model out of the release, they broke policy and published a model with nudity. fromhell confirmed this in his earlier post in this thread, do you need a quote?

Okay, I'll spell it out.
1) Lingerie is sexually driven. Yes? Everyone agree on this?

2) Outfits with nipple-to-labia clamps are sold exclusively as lingerie / sextoys in real-life stores. Yes? Have you bought them anywhere else?

3) A character is modeled/textured to wear such a lingerie outfit in a game. We all know which model we're talking about here.

4) Therefore, the model is sexually-driven.

I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

Did you seriously not understand this chain of thought, or are you just harassing me?

--clint

It's not nudity. There are no offensive parts. She's as clean as a Barbie doll. She is also tasteful, and I shouldn't even have to stick her in the mature pak. No policy is broken.



What a silly argument. Also, where can you buy q3 Hunter's 'breast belt'? OH I guess that must be a sex toy too because it is not a conventional swimsuit.

damnit, what do you really want me to do about it, pull the 0.7.0 release off the page and point fingers on who and why?

That's not going to happen.  I like my releases complete and I don't have time nor bandwidth to pull up a cut 240mb release just for a few select people.

Some people like their sex-doll porn without nipples. Just because they wear flesh-colored latex nipple stickers doesn't mean it's not pornography or nudity.

This is what I was asking about in my last big post:

I think that the women who have posted in this thread have made it clear that "nipples" != "offensive parts" -- the offensive part is the intent with which this content is put into an otherwise excellent team deathmatch game.


When dmn_clown put out a call for suggestions, noone suggested that we pull the 0.7 release -- everything we've been talking about is looking forward to policy for the future.


Like I said before, this isn't my show. I'm just one of a myriad of other users. It's been asked before how to get more people playing OA, I'm just trying to give you feedback from this one customer's point of view. Please don't feel pressured by me -- I'm not trying to strongarm my way into control of this project. I am just one data point of customer feedback -- take it for what it's worth.

--clint

Edit: Sorry, you were revising your post while I was typing mine. To address your comment to me:
*sigh* Whether or not you can technically buy an in-game item in real life (or where it's bought) was not the point I was trying to convey. I was saying that nipple-to-labia clamps are generally understood to be lingerie. Yes?

As far as Barbie nudity goes it is a choice that the kids can make, they can choose to undress the dolls and watch them "nude". A Barbie doll does not come packaged without any, or less than minimal, clothing. If you are curious enough to undress a barbie doll you wouldn't find nipples, camel-toes or any other extremely enlarged body-parts. Here is how a nude Barbie look (http://www.zug.com/daily/journal/graphics/061306_barbie02_naked.jpg) like.

Why not, for 0.8, if enough people oppose as to having what some cultures would call nudity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudity), make a separate add-on with the mature contents (that you can download if you provide your age), instead of having it pre-packed and embedded with the release.

That way we get:

• less complaints
• more respect as a serious community
• happy boys
• happy girls
• smaller downloads (if not using 'mature' content

If the spirit of Open Arena is to live on, it needs more players and a larger community, not the other way around.
Personally, if I want to see large breast while playing, I could play Leisure Suit Larry (http://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/large/1109220901-00.jpg).

[edit: added a link to our DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Angelyss]Angelyss wiki (http://([b) - where do we draw the nudity line?]

It was originally supposed to be nipple-to-waist, but there would be severe clipping issues from that idea.

What about the angelyss/tanisha skin? Surely that could be worse issue.

Ok, if I understand what you're talking about Clint, you don't have anything against the nudity matter, but more about "sexual driven content", like urging people to fantasy on models?
I mean, (that's an example, cover your eyes children... I can see you !) some completely clothed nurse sucking (in a very indecent manner) a lollypop or an ice cream must be considered as "sexual driven content" while DaVinci's David shouldn't. Because one is trying to turn people on while the other... not.

Yes -- thanks for wording it so well. Both of your examples could be used in ways other than that which the author intended, but trying to control that falls outside of the realm of prudent responsibility. Whether or not something is "clean" or "wholesome" comes down to trying to honestly know the intent behind it.

--clint

A request from my girlfriend, she was wondering if you could model something like this to: :)
(http://www.undiesdrawer.com/undiesdrawer/images/post11231159993249_1.jpg)

interesting challenge, i might just try that.

I'm talking about your gf, it's obvious. Or it is not? Nevermind.

I was confused by the he who was a she until she became a he, but we still don't know if he is she or she is he. So no, wasn't that obvious to me :)

*sigh*

If you want to believe I am harassing you, feel free.  If you want to continue a silly and unfounded argument, feel free.  However, if you want the answer to what is going to happen with content in future releases I suggest you re-read the entire thread, I do not have the patience to repeat myself for one person that has a hangup over one model.

I'm sorry dmn_clown -- I shouldn't have used the word "harassing." I got overly frustrated and for that I apologize. Sorry for publicly suggesting that of you. I'll try to not let it happen again.

For the record, this is hyperbole that is ignoring the breadth of the issue. It wasn't just me, and it wasn't just one model. It's a larger issue than that -- I respectfully hope that you can see that.

For whatever my small opinion may be worth, I'm impressed with this and find it a very good suggestion.

Respectfully,
clint

tonnyx, i was interested by your comments,

i've got a question for you, linda and any other women reading this. there are unrealistic portrayals of women in this and many other games, but i think it should be possible to provide attractive female characters that appeal to male gamers without alienating female players. could you give me suggestions to what you feel would strike a good balance between the two camps. maybe you could name celebrities that you think fit the part.

Thanks for opening up some dialog!  I appreciate it.  I'll do my best to give constructive input.

One of the biggest issues for me is the underlying model.  You can't drape any clothes on top of an absurdly disproportionate model and come out with anything reasonable and attractive.  The biggest thing that comes to mind is breast size (pun intended).  Completely absurd these days.  I mean, come on, in combat? you don't want those getting in the way.

Here's one particular outfit I like: http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MG/201171~The-Matrix-Reloaded-Posters.jpg
And this one: http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/TRND/FP2765~Matrix-Trinity-Posters.jpg

It's not like these women are totally flat; but they're not just globular breasts with a body attached.

Have you seen the movie Serenity?  While I don't like how much cleavage Summer Glau is showing as her character River Tam, I really like her character's persona.  And I really like her face and hair.  Her character has a lot of depth, and everything about her reinforces who she is.  Her clothing is not merely lingerie, even though it is on the loose flowy side; it's there to reinforce her gracefulness.  But that's not all she is; she is graceful, feminine, vulnerable (as you find out through character development in the movie), and very very deadly (http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/images/summerglau.jpg).  That's my kind of girl.  :)

So all this to say that some of the best heroines in sci-fi action films are those who women find something that they can or want to identify with, but as you said, are still appealing to males.  It's wonderful when female characters have more personality traits than just sex appeal.  That by itself gets old, and any reasonable woman with decent self-esteem realizes quickly that identifying with such a character is unrewarding.

As I mentioned before, I liked the Kyonshi model because she's creepy; her full-coverage clothing and her creepy facial expression create more of a mystique than if she were letting it all hang out.  One need not know exactly what a Kyonshi is to realize that this chick is creepy.  So I hope that explains what I mean - a female character with an actual set of traits in mind helps to drive what she looks like, and even the "aura" that she has, and communicates to people, perhaps on a subconscious level, what kind of person she is.

If you look at the pictures above, you can kind of see what kind of women I like to identify with; there are other good female characters in movies, though.
Sigourney Weaver as Ripley in Aliens, for example:
http://www.planetout.com/images/slides/2003/kickass/sigourney.jpg

And then there's Vasquez in Aliens, if you go for that kind of thing (I don't, personally, but it's another example of a female character who, although she's still filling a stereotype, it's a different one from what we've been talking about):
http://imdb.com/gallery/ss/0090605/Ss/0090605/IMG0008.jpg.html

Oh yeah, and Eowyn in Lord of the Rings (http://www.kingelessar.nl/eowyn3.jpg)

So I hope that helps!  Thanks for soliciting input!

You mean Major, Ayumi and Kyonshi don't exist?

Not when you are on a witchhunt.

tonnyx - thanks for the feedback. some useful ideas there.

fromhell - no, i think major, ayumi and kyonshi are definitely characters that don't alienate female characters and that's a good thing. what i'm thinking about is a model that's more glamorous than those characters, but a bit more restrained than angelyss.

dmn_clown - i hope the witchhunt comment wasn't directed at me.

It wasn't, it was directed at people who seem to think that visible flesh == sexually driven content.  The fact that there is a content system being worked on for future releases has obviously escaped their notice.

Hi

I felt compelled to give my opinion since I think this is an important issue that affects the game from different angles, and nothing but positive ideas can be the outcome of debate.

a) Any consumable product should be free, to the maximum extent, of offensive and/or humiliating content, within the boundaries and standards expected by the intended audience.

OA, may I assume, it's developed by (and logically for) occidental people embracing the occidental culture. That's why nobody here is questioning whether the female characters should wear a veil, for instance. In western culture, nudity is not a tabu item as it used to be (thanks given), but countless times it is misused, usually quite intentionally, to add some appeal to a given product. Yes, there is something wrong with that if we care anything about the representation of women in society (which, in turn, defines the representation of man, by the way). Thus, a girl dressing a bikini next to a motorbike or car, or in the first page of a computer magazine, etc, has clearly nothing to do with the product but everything with marketing strategy.

Since I have no clue about what on earth a half-naked amazon-like character with a shotgun on one hand and a rocket launcher on the other may have to do with the game itself, I'm inclined to see this model as a misuse of the feminine body. This I hate from the mainstream culture; when it comes from independent and cooperative projects it just makes me feel sad. Please note that no content system can possibly amend this.

b) I believe the quality of the game is impaired with what it seems to be a random inclusion of different models no matter what. 0.7 is an excellent release, but some of the models (regardless of the sexual content now) look out of place, as if taken from different games. Perhaps a more thorough and sensible approach at the modelling stage (or whatever it's called) would make more people happier and improve the general feeling of the game, possibly saving complaints/suggestions like the ones originated in this thread.

Obviously, I'm not trying to annoy anybody with my opinions about the game and its contents. As the OP stated, this is not my party, I'm just a happy user who's made the choice to play this product for I enjoy it. Keep up with the good work.

Thankfully Running With Scissors, makers of Postal 2:  Share the Pain (see attached screen shots) and Postal 2:  Apocalypse Weekend and Rockstar Games, makers of  GTA: Vice City, and GTA: San Andreas*, do not share your belief that everything must be free of offensive content.  These games are very fun to play and removing what you deem to be offensive content would ruin the games.


You obviously have never played Quake 3.  Hunter fits your description of a half-naked amazon-like character.  Is iD Software then so bad?

•   Apparently it is perfectly alright to beat down cops with a double-headed dildo but the moment you use a memory hacker and/or download a third party product that opens a mini-game that simulates fully-clothed sex, the game is anathema and lawsuits ensue.

i'm not occidental, i was a planned pregnancy.

;-)

I don't think he was saying everything needs to be free of offensive content -- I think he's saying that games intended for general audience should follow those guidelines.

Are you hoping to make a socio-political statement with OA to garner a specific niche shock-value interest, like Postal did? Or are you hoping for it to see wider appeal?

Noone is saying that you can't have bouncing bare boobies in your copy of the game -- we're all just saying that if the game is going to be for general Western-culture consumption, then a mere "content system" checkbox isn't going to help.

Thanks for the discussion!

Respectfully,
clint

I suggest you re-read what was posted.


No, it's about giving free artistic rein to whoever wishes to contribute.  If you don't like the Angelyss skins, then redo them and submit them, or is this just about voicing your dislike for a model?


Yet, you have no problem with UT2004 which is for "general Western-culture consumption" and has more offensive content than OpenArena...


Your welcome.

Misuse how? It's not used in the front page, or about page, or even all over the game menus; just only some few pics in the gallery. It's not exploitation or 'misuse'.

If you really want to see 'misuse' may I suggest World of Padman (http://worldofpadman.com), however since that is non-Free for media, you don't have a choice of having the 'misuse of female' removed. The game also has audible swearing too and is somewhat actually more offensive than OA in western culture, I think

Sure thing!

He said:
"Any consumable product should be free, to the maximum extent, of offensive and/or humiliating content, within the boundaries and standards expected by the intended audience."
Basically, this is to say that if you intend to publish a game to appeal to a certain audience, that it probably shouldn't go against that audience's general culture.

He then went on to say:
"OA, may I assume, it's developed by (and logically for) occidental people embracing the occidental culture."
Basically, he's saying that he assumed that OA was trying to appeal to general western culture (I.E. average western males and females). He's saying that if your audience is general western culture, then he doesn't think you're going about the right way of appealing to that culture. Democratically (based on the number of other posters in this thread), it seems that the consensus would tend to agree with him on this point.

Based on your response to him, I asked you as to who you intended OA to be played by, and was wondering if you were content with a niche market (such as Postal), or if you were hoping to see the game played by a wider audience.


So, like an artistic free-for-all?

Generally, I've seen that the best and longest-lived community projects have an agreed-upon vision and purpose statement of the project that drives all of the decisions and helps everyone move forward towards a common agreed-upon goal. Volunteers sign up to contribute to a vision, not to make a statement of their own.

I understood the OA vision to be something different than the direction that it went in 0.7, and I am just asking that we be honest, intentional, and clear about what the goals of OA are, and clearly stating who we are trying to make the game appeal to. If we hash out the answer to that overarching purpose and audience statement, I think that will help resolve a lot of this conflict, because parties that don't agree with it can find other projects that line up with their personal ideals. Noone wants to leave OA -- we all want to see this project move forward with concentrated effort, but there's a conflict here, and I'm trying to see it resolved as effectively and respectfully as we can.

It's true that I don't like pornography, and as Tonnyx said so well, I think that distorted images of what femininity is quite damaging to the young women of a culture. That's not what this thread is about -- I'm just asking for the development community to be honest and up-front about what they've agreed upon as a team to pursue and clean up some of the conflicting double-talk surrounding the project's goals.

It seems that most people are in agreement that removing the offensive content from the base distribution would be a good idea, but that's by no means a unanimous opinion, and I don't know who holds how much sway in the project. Like I said before, I'm just a customer, I'm not a developer -- please only take my opinion for the data point that it is.

FWIW, I own UT and UT2004, and I actually do have issues with it. Like I've said, we used to play Unreal Tournament at our LAN parties, but then switched away for a number of reasons (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=1006.msg7367#msg7367).

fromhell: You're right about WoP -- Padman is fairly counter-culture to Americans, and while I love the lilliputian perspective of the game, it sadly comes with that content by default, and so has remained on my list of rejected evaluated games. FWIW (in case you want to know why), the sexuality of the project is much more of a turn-off than the swearing (which goes over surprisingly smoothly as long as it's used in moderation). You said that Angelyss is not yet on the front page or used in any of the menus -- is it intended to stay that way? She has a fair bit of prominence in the galleries, and seems to be a popular model for feature screenshots. If she's everyone's favorite model (as she is yours), then I would guess it's only a matter of time before she starts replacing Kyonshi as the "face of OA." Even so, it seems that the women who have posted in this thread have agreed that they feel Angelyss is a misuse of the female form as is (for their aforementioned reasons).


Again, I feel bad for being such a pain in the neck, but for the sake of community cohesion, I think this is an important (albeit difficult) discussion. Thanks again for bearing with me!

Respectfully,
clint

(I just have a quick note about GTA, Postal and other games like Kingpin and Soldier of Fortune : The purpose of these games ARE to be violent and gross. I had the bad idea to buy Kingpin to find out it was a censored version, with violence striping, the game was jusst borring -- When I buy violent games, I WANT to have blood and guts. I'm afraid the problem is more about chosing a side of the fence and stick to it)

OA is a "niche market."  It doesn't matter what we add, remove, or how great the game looks or doesn't look.  It will always be a "niche market."  Software Libre games and hobbiest freeware games cannot expect to be anything but a "niche market."

As an exercise start q3:a multiplayer, if you have a legal copy, and check the number of servers that are available for a seven year old game, 1549 servers (on my end at least) are shown running protocol 68.   OA currently has 66 total servers, an increase from 0.6, but still nothing when compared to 1549. 

OA will never have the fan base that q3:a has, no matter what lei, myself, or any of our contributers want.  Be realistic, at least...


Postings in this thread, and this thread alone, hardly rate a majority of the users.  I count 5 people being vocal against this model, 6 if you include w1zrd's alter-ego/better-half that may or may not be w1zrd posting as a woman (its a judgement call).


Are you saying the angelyss model is pornography?


What conflicting double-talk?  Those of us that contribute to this project have been honest and straight-forward about this.

I do not understand. Can you explain why is it so important to you how one
model look like. Don't like girls?

Hi, never ment to enter this discussion, but since you are after numbers I can be counted in that bunch. And for your information w1zrd's alter-ego/better-half is quite the nicest peson I've ever met. And she is a separate entity (i.e. she does very much exist). :)

Hi Supermatic!

I'm not sure how many times I can rehash the problem -- I feel like I've explained it so many times in this thread.

"one model"
First off, it's not one model. There are issues with 4 of the new 0.7 models, and more of this genre seem to be "in the pipe" so to speak. I'm asking about a larger issue, that of the guidelines for content, and the goals of the project.

Secondly, the problem is multi-fold, but the long and short of it is that many people (myself included) originally came to OA because it was one of the few games that was actually respectful of women in its content. A number of female gamers who I introduced to OA really appreciated this, and it was a huge breath of fresh air for many of them who had been so tired of the disrespect that they felt by being regarded as pieces of meat for adolescent male gamer's sex-doll fantasies. This is not a new issue -- the representation of women in games has been a subject of discussion in game development for a number of years, especially in recent years as video games are becoming more culturally accepted, and more girls are spending their time gaming. The market is changing, if we're going to stay on top of the wave, we need to be aware of this.

So yes -- I do happen to like girls. I also happen to respect them, which is something that I feel the latest content is failing to do.


There's a difference between audience and customers -- let's not confuse the two.

I was talking about appeal -- who is the general market that you're appealing to? What is their demographic? 18-26 y/o males? Are you trying to make the game appeal to females? Are you trying to make it appeal to younger teens? Are you trying to make it appeal to older gamers? How many base customers do you want to start with? What are their values? What are their interests? What do they like?

What you were talking about is actual market share -- how much of the market do you actually acquire. When I used the phrase "niche market", I used it in the sense that a "niche market" means that your target customers are a very small pie, but you can have a larger piece (percentage-wise) because there aren't as many other products competing with you. A "general market" means that there are many more people fighting for pie, but it's a much bigger pie, so there's more to go around. In that sense, Just because OA is unpopular compared to Q3A doesn't mean that you're in a "niche market" -- it means that you've just currently got a smaller "market share."


It's true -- it's not an exhaustive sampling. It's just a handful of statistical data points -- take them for what they're worth.


It all depends on your definition of the word. So I'll answer your question in that it seems to me that the Angelyss model's primary intent is to provide sexual arousal through visual stimulation. Some people (such as myself) use that definition for pornography (note that nudity is not necessarily required). In this sense, pictures of women wearing revealing lingerie or latex body paint (when no skin is technically visible) may be considered "pornography". You likely have a different definition -- that's fine, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.



I was just referencing the inconsistency that I explained in my first post (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=1006.msg7297#msg7297).


Thanks for bearing with me -- take care.

--clint

Please edit this BLATANTLY pornographic image out of your post immediately.

Don't be an idiot, you have an issue with two models and various skins because you feel they are disrespectful/pornography/whatever. Now, if these models ran around shoving weapons into their vulva or simulated coitus with other models I could see this argument holding weight, BUT THEY DON'T, they are not disrespectful, they are not pornography any more so than Michelangelo's David (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/visualarts/david_big.html) is pornography.

The disrespect and porn aspect that you continually iterate exist ONLY IN YOUR MIND.

Post a decent solution agreeable to all and/or submit better models and skins, or we'll ignore your request.  It is as simple as that.

I made one (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=1006.msg7367#msg7367) suggested course of action back when you originally asked for this, but I think that I like w1zrd's proposal (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=1006.msg7506#msg7506) the best.

I'd vote that we follow that one.

--clint

This thread is depressing. It makes me feel I can't do what I want to do anymore. Isn't that what Free Software is about?

It's not like anybody is stopping you to make a 'safe' fork release. I shouldn't have to do anything about it, really. Guess those flashing (http://openarena.ws/17plus.gif)'s and a split into a mature pak isn't working out after all.

You want be free? Isn't gonna work.

:)

btw, nice game, i'm addicted to it

I feel bad for depressing you, fromhell. :-\

I'm a big fan of game development as a hobby -- it's one of my favorite things to do for fun. It's a great way to keep oneself educating, and I love the freedom to create -- programming is like playing with digital Lego blocks.


So I understand what a wet blanket like regulations does to one's creativity, and I don't want to stifle you with your favorite hobby. I'm just saying that if you continue to push content like this that is offensive to players, you're going to drive them away from your game. If you want more people to play your game, then you have to be aware of their interests and create accordingly. If you're more interested in making a game that is fun for you and you don't care if other people play it or help you make it, then by all means create whatever you want.


It's true -- schism is sometimes a necessary (but painful) part of open-source development. I don't think anyone wants to leave OA -- it has a ton of support and momentum behind it, and I'm sure that everyone would like to see this concerted effort continue. Two coals burn brighter together than either one does alone.

We're trying to think of an acceptable solution that would continue to help it appeal to a general audience (so as to attract more players and developers), but also not stifle others. We're trying to find a good middle ground that everyone can in sign their name to and push forward as a community on a common project.

I think there's a lot of wisdom in W1zrd's suggestion -- you still keep your models, it's just a small separate download, it increases your potential fan base, and the cleanliness of the project makes hosting sites more willing to promote it to their ever-younger-audience. Do you see any plusses/minusses that you feel I missed?

Again, I don't want to manage this project -- this is y'alls show. If y'all honestly want me to leave you alone and just let you do your thing, if you tell me to shut up and just go away, then no problem. I'll pack up my pogs and go home.

I'm not a developer on this project, I'm just a fan.

--clint

I'll do that if it helps to resolve the issue. I understand both sides of the issue and would be more than happy to do the fork release if it makes everyone happy and allows everyone to get on with the future of the product.

The reasons to why Quake III grew as it did is due to some very simple facts:

• A) The game already had supporters from the Quake series.
• B) Tournaments and other competitions ensured that more players got intrested.
• C) They use QuakeNet for IRC, where thousands of players meet daily.
• D) Heavy advertisement and media coverage made sure it got publicity.

For Open Arena it might be that people that are used to FPS games find it that some of the maps may not be visually attractive nor playable to some extent, some models might be out of place or of offending nature to some, especially us parents or the community itself might be less talkative and open than others. But the people who love and support the Open Arena project are embracing the entire project and it's members with open arms, that's something that you won't see in Q3 for example as it is commercial and competitive.

 Myself, I don't see the reason behind having a gangster/amazon/lizard/spiderwoman/penguinman/merman/soldier/hopping corpse packed in as a single package, since there is no storyboard as to why nor a consistent theme behind them; but that is only my opinion, it is not an attempt to try and discard the entire project as I support this project and try to help in what matters I can. Things like this though, can make older/serious players and younger ones, male or female, want to leave the game, or not being allowed by parents to play it, maybe not even try it in the first place. If we keep adding random models and hundreds of maps we will end up with a 10.8 Gb download filled with completely random, but artistic contents, in version 1.0 of Open Arena. In my world it is generally quality before quantity when it comes to game, and game-related objects.

 So, a few questions out of interest:
Q: What is the target audience for Open Arena? Are they 8-14, 17-25 or are they 25-35 maybe even older?
Q: What is the concept behind Open Arena? Is it to make an replica of Q3 but which is built under GPL license, or am I wrong?
Q: What is the art-direction concept behind Open Arena really?

On the last question the answer would be: Anime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime) (which people thought was an aprils joke implementation for OA (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=646.0)) but does the characters in the game follow anime style as of 0.7? Mind me for my ignorance but I come from the western culture and my knowledge of Anime and Manga is very limited, obviously. This is however what I found from a wiki:

 As far as the completely random, but very artistic, content of models goes, that's a different issue and reading DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/PlayerMDLs]the ideas (http://([b) here almost scares the h**l out of me, even if it's supposed to be a parody of Q3's characters (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=805.msg5340#msg5340). It tells me that if I want to make my own non-copyrighted version of these (http://images.entertainmentearth.com/%5CAUTOIMAGES%5CHP22653AAlg.jpg), they could be included since it shows a genuine and unique style as never seen before in OA, anime or not? There are characters like this (http://leileilol.mancubus.net/crap/imvu/omghot.png), this (http://gaarabis.free.fr/_acc/gallery/021_NoRazor.jpg), this (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=648.msg4209#msg4209) and this (http://moddb.com/images/cache/mods/12/1234/gallery/water_11315.jpg) and they would, again in my opinion, fit the game fine if now the Open Arena project is based on a Anime theme style.

They are opinions and should be taken for what they are worth nevertheless.

If you like witch-hunts you may want to suspect every member of the OA community to be of multiple sexes, by all means. Someone could indeed be a man, or a 18 year old woman posing as the other; it all comes down to your own beliefs (and forum-backlogs on other forums pre-dated 2005). But look -- there ARE women playing Open Arena (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=356.0), so they do exist.

 But dmn_clown, for your information so that you can sleep at night: I am a 30 year old man engaged with a wonderful woman and I intend to keep it that way.

This thread has nothing to do with what you (or the contributors) can do, or not. This thread has voiced the opinions of less than a handful players of the game who praises the game, but does not agree with the mature content being exposed in the manner that it currently is. The first post included this:


It is a matter of constructive criticism and attempts to improve the game in ways to make it friendlier to the kids playing the game and people who feel that some contents may be unsuitable. It is therefore a discussion and it should not prevent you from working on it.

I wouldn't sell my company because some of my employees doesn't like the wallpaper, I would find a solution for it instead.

The reason for so few "votes" against some of the content in the game, or other "issues", is because people generally are afraid of getting involved in these types discussions because they get hammered down if they open their mouth, hence the I-dont-want-to-get-involved attitude from many. Also many of OA's users are non-native english speakers (myself included) and comments made are easily misunderstood.

The forums are not heavily used for discussions, they are usually channelled through IRC (not on the official #openarena though) or in the game itself. Many Open Arena players do not even know that this forum, or the IRC channels exist, and that is a fact, a fact that we need to change.

Comments like:
and:
Are pure stupid and add nothing of value to the discussion. It's like insinuating that the previous poster would be a homosexual for having an opinion or saying openly that tits corrupt our youth out of sarcasm, but that's another chapter.

I've had enough of this pissing contents and random sarcasm, wake me up when something constructive comes along.
After all, we all want what's best for the community and the project unless I'm mistaken.

And the models that iD packaged with their game fit into Quake how?  With the exception of Bitterman, none can be found in any of the other games, so I am sorry but this argument of yours does not hold any weight, and can be summed up with the phrase "I don't like the current models in OA."


It is open source software, you are free to contribute better looking models as long as they are licensed under the GPLv2 and include source, how many times does this need to be said?


Thanks, I was loosing so much sleep over that...

My opinion does not need to 'hold any weight' as it just my opinion and it is already added to the "I don't like ALL the current models in OA" phrase. But I guess everyone in the world doesn't like chocolate either, believe it or not.
So because the game is licensed under GPLv2 are you saying that everyone who contributes to the project with a picture, a model, a map or a texture, that they all will be added to the upcoming releases, or do they still need to be commited/verified/checked by someone first before they are included?

I'd also like to note that I really do like the Kyonshi character -- she's really quite good as well. I think the default inclusion of the offensive ones are more of the issue.

--clint

You are saying that being a homosexual is bad, right? :) So, yes, i'm sarcastic all
the time becouse is funny to me how those tits bother peoples. But im ok with
everything, this game is fun as hell.

I am not saying being a homosexual is a bad thing nor is it an issue that belongs on this forum. I am saying that your comment implied that the previous poster was a homosexual and that could offend some people. Breasts are nice, but they are not to be enjoyed by a 12-year old sitting in front of the computer playing a game, in my opinion. Search engines like Google have SafeSearch and software programs like NannyFilter exist to prevent mature material being shown to kids, maybe if you were a parent you could understand the whole point of sexually driven contents a little bit better.
[edit: and yes, the game itself is very enjoyable]

If that is how you want to take it, take it that way.  All I'm saying is that I see a lot of people complaining and no one is submitting anything better, which they are free to do. 

I'm just doing a media pack. I consider the playable standalone game and a following as nice side effects. Popularity was and still is not my goal here. It's entirely experimental. I could care less if 0 people or 10060404556408337 people played the game

I am in full support of the current models and I actually use the Angelyss/Dark models quite often during bot matches -- one of my favorites! As "bad" or selfish as this sounds, if it was me (which it obviously isn't), I'd just let the people that don't like the game go somewhere else if they don't like it. Want an extremely violent gun game without showing skin? Hmmm, I think Star Wars Battlefront II is a pretty good multiplayer FPS game that the character models are mostly robots or people wearing robes and armor. It is actually an amazing game and one of my favorites, but it's commercial and not free.

There's that saying "no matter what you do there's someone that won't like it," and this most definitely seems like one of those cases. There will always be that small percentage of people that disagree with how things are being run, and they're usually the most vocal, while those that are content and happy with the game are just sitting back and *gasp* playing the game.

Good luck with whatever your decision is fromhell, but whatever you choose I am in full support of it and I think that the way things are now are wonderful. I can't ask for anything more (especially since it's free) and thank you for the time you've spent in bringing this game to my desktop and the masses -- especially the great changes made in 0.7.1

-Coconut

Groovy. Thanks, fromhell! I had thought that popularity was a goal (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=329.0), but I'm honestly glad to have the updated clarification.

I think Anyone was right-on when he said:

That's exactly what I was wanting to know.

Thanks again for the discussion -- thanks for working this out with me.

Respectfully,
clint

That's a relief.. I was worried that you would care if I take your "media pack" and split it into the single maps for use with a real Q3 server in the 1500+ players Q3 network...

I asked you about automatic downloading in the past and you locked and deleted those topics including my account. Remember?

My plan is to use the maps from OpenArena on a Q3 server I would call "OpenArena" because Q3 players seem to be more used to downloading than OA players for some reason that you don't want to change.

The advantage for you would be that you can finally remove all cvars that allow to tweak the engine (you call it cheating as I've heard) and nobody, who would care, will waste your precious time because they can play all the OpenArena maps "somewhere" else.

It's a win/win situation, isn't it?

:D

Thankfully enough, not everybody displays the same lack of sensibility to critics as you blatantly do. The people you would let go somewhere else--I'm already free to do whatever I please, thanks--have reiteratively stated their liking of the game and have also been extremely polite, I should say. Too easy to hold a debate when everything you are prepared to hear are your own ideas.

Now, same proposals have actually been made:

-not to enable by default what can be perceived as edgy content. (post #1)
-to try to agree on which models may need some redoing. (post #21)
-to pack that content as an additional download. (posts #1 and 39)
-to create a "safe" fork release. (post #73)
-an invitation to propose/create alternative models. (posts #75, 81 and possibly more)
-forget about the nutters. (post #83)

Before even considering any of these suggestions (or forthcoming ones), the questions posed earlier in the thread should have an answer, ortherwise we are uselessly increasing the entropy of the universe to no avail:


After all, it may well be that we are an isolated group of fanatics that happen to enjoy the game but don't understand/share some points of it. I believe, though, that the following assertion is shared by us all:

As I have been reading up on the history of Open Arena since I fell in love with the project itself, and the idea behind it, I found that in the past you have been wanting people to contribute and help in making this idea come true. But now you are saying that the community supporting you and the project, everything behind it is not important to you? You are saying, as the main developer and creator of the game, that you don't care if people play the game and that because a handful of people have options you feel restricted in performing your work? There is a great difference in being open-minded and being naive, but maybe I am both if I think that this project was meant for the people just as much for yourself.

Sure, go for it.  Just don't violate the terms of the license.

Thanks for misinterpreting my post everybody. Now how about i lock this thread and no one wins