OpenArena Message Boards

In this thread we discuss the 0.8.0 roadmap.

(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Roadmap#0.8

i do not agree that removing vertex lighting is a good idea at all.

Team Arena UI:
Is the new menu system already supported in OA ?

Missionpack entities.
- This is already done for a lot of the maps
- I don't think you _have_ to place the new weapons in all maps. Only if it makes sense.

Vertex lightning
- Remove it from menu, but keep in engine
- Stop official support. It is annoying having to test multiple lightsettings when you map.
- If Vertex can be used as a cheat then it is not Vertex lights fault. Go through the maps and ensure that all player models are visisble anyware on lightmap+gamme 1.0. I have noticed that there is a problem with dm17wrack there I have to boost the gamme quite extreme to see the other players on some backgrounds.

Gametypes:
- The hardest thing in making new gametypes is the bot support. I am still working on Standard Domination bot support. Perhaps we should create things like catch the chicken as a mod and just include it?

I'd like to see Threewave emulated CTF...  The most important things being the grappling hook and holdable/droppable/always-in-play runes. I can modify the source to allow for these things, but I don't know how to make it part of a specific game mode.

I didn't notice that the map suffers lightning issues. If we create some kind of floating lights I put my hands on wrackdm17 again, adding more rust and cracks and more spotlights.

@Overkill: How about not doing a completely new gametype but having a cvar that enables/disables runes and grappling hook? Runes are needed for missionpack anyway.

Missionpack does have runes so all that would be missing is a grappling hook which believe it or not is HALF-implemented in the source already, LOL
The hook would have to be remodeled and use a different beam shader, maybe some sort of chain

use sticky hands (http://prosites-lottofun9.homestead.com/stickyhands.html) instead of grappling hooks :P

Portable jump pads!

Those are really fun in Shifter Tribes, but we don't have any tall wide maps for such use of those yet :(

Sorry everyone if this is the wrong place for this.
i recently read a post about using Open Arena in an environment where some sort of censoring mode could be activated. You know like general public access, class rooms, etc. It got me thinking about that and the direction the game appears to be taking.
From the enormous effort that contributors have given over time the game has become more than the sum total of it's parts, developing an identity of it's own and emerging as ?
Right here at the ? i think implementing a kiosk mode or whatever would be a good thing.
It would give developers the chance to take a breath and not have to worry about suitability, rating, ugh things like that. The General rated kiosk mode could be honed for that specific audience while the regular mode could explore the possibilities and limitations of the game engine.

Some additional suggestions (only if time permits or someone is willing):

Some large DM maps for 12-20 players. Quake 3 only had two really big maps, but Open Arena has none.

Start using the engines build in pk3 ban function to prevent old pak7-patches from being loaded. (The engine has such a function to restrict the demo-version from loading the retail pak0)

Allow the new gametypes (overload, one flag etc.) and weapons (Mine layer etc.) to be used in base.

:D this is how we like it :D

I agree.  I usually play Open Arena a lot on a computer that can't even display the game (with a decent frame rate) at 1024 by 768.  Removing vertex lighting will likely cost me valuable frames.  One of the cool things I like about Open Arena is that you do not need a powerful computer to play it.  This way we can put our older computers and budget laptops to good use.  Hopefully the minimum system requirements for Open Arena will remain constant.

If you still want to remove vertex lighting, only remove the menu option.  That way those of us who know what we are doing can turn it on.

Thanks.

If vertex lighting is to be retained, it should stay on the menu. Hiding advantageous game options in the console doesn't feel sporting to me. Please, won't someone think of the noobs!!! ;)

I'm not a person who has lots of money (as a student the opposite is the case *gg) but I used to run the original q3 on a P233 with a voodoo card. This was about 8 years ago. Considering that there are (at least in germany) computers for 120€(/$) in stores which can run oa on vista *gg I don't think considering systems which are so low-end that they can only run vertex lighting is such a good idea for the advance of oa. IMHO you can run oa with every computer built since 2000 which should be enough.
Just my 2 cents ;)

Vertex is not advantageous. I agree with the points made above but vertex maybe useful sometimes although I cant remember the last time I used it. When your  a noob or have a poor system then vertex is probably better because you dont realise is that you are a glowing target and much easier to see when you are using default settings and other  people are using pm models which you dont know about. And yea, vertex is simply another shortcut in changing the display detatails so people would have to do it the hard way with all the other r_ settings. noobs wont have a clue about these little tweaks and it maybe just a solution to see slighter better so I guess it should stay. I would suggest using an 800 display, if you want to have an advantage and have higher detail.

Hi!

I don't know where to post requests for OA.

I suggest two ideas : the support for widescreens 1920x1200 resolution, and refresh more than 60Hz for CRT screen (60Hz--> eyes say "ouch !")

Thanks to consider these features.

r_mode -1
r_customwidth 1920
r_customheight 1200
r_displayrefresh 75

and with widescreen try cg_fov 120

OK thanks. It should be better if a menu allows players to choose this options. :)

That works. I prefer cg_fov 90.

Well if you use 90 fov on a normal monitor you should use 108 on your current monitor as:

standard aspect ratio = 4:3

1920x1200 = 16:10

3/4 = 0.75

10 / 16 = 0.625

(90 * 0.75)/0.625 = 108


fyi fov means field of view, a.k.a. your viewing angle - which obviosuly would be a bit wider on a wide screen. All personal prefernce though obviously :).

yeah nerfing the shadows to the point where there isn't any isn't advantageous alright

if you want to screw up old hardware users- disable r_picmip (its possible to set it to 15, but then it looks really pale)
what i would like to be changed is the brightness of the shaft- for me its too bright, i dont see the enemy when i shoot (no official brightskins). and there is no disabling lightningimpact- at least that would help to aim a bit too (the animation at end of lightn bolt when it touches something)

Thank you. I will try. :)

That equation is not quite correct, you can't multiply angles like that.

Assuming the monitor itself physically has a 16:10 aspect (= 1.6) instead of the standard 4:3 (= 1.333) then the "normal" FOV for such a monitor would be:

tan(fov / 2) = 1.6 / 1.333

hence fov = 2 * atan(1.6 / 1.333) = 100.4 degrees

Yeah, you're right. Cheers for correction.

It could possibly improve the performance of someone playing on a low end set up but the option is not an advantage overall, more like a restriction. I probably read the post differently

Then dont post if you are not sure....!

But I was absolutely sure at the time of post :D If anything you may want to reconsider nit picking my posts unless your are killing time and getting paid for it. I don't think your advice has enough substance I'm afraid - unless you could elaborate on some suggestions which I may be unaware of to prevent future quality issues regarding content.  :( 

Missbehaving, could you say more on how vertex lighting is like a restriction? I'm pretty new to Quake3 based games so I'm still ignorant of a lot of the nuances.

Below are two pics of OA_DM2, a pretty dark level. Both have my normal brightness setting and the only difference between them is the r_vertexlight cvar. I've haven't experimented with the brightness settings too much on my current monitor, but on my old one I couldn't get it anywhere near that bright. Is there some disadvantage (other than general ugliness ) to seeing the game world this way?

It's just too bad displays don't all have the same brightness. It would be nice to have everyone seeing the same thing. Until then, I think I'll stick with seeing shadows.

and that, there, is the reason vertex light is saying sayonara

Noo..!!! :(  Plz, dont take it away..

UPGRADE TO A DAMN VOODOO2 YOU SONOFA i mean how hard is it not not have a 2+ TMU card in 2008!? That's all that's needed for lossless fps for lightmap play.

oh! Do not change the vertex light stuff in your config.. use the options for that. It can screw things up :D

btw.. i dont have a great gfx card, it's not so important if you use 800 display resolution, it also feels alot smoother.

Lightmap is far superior quality and you get all the strobe effects and such that makes it more atmospheric. There are also shadows spread round the map, shadows is one of the things I use to use as guides when jumping around.

Some areas are lit up by map lighting and others intentionally darker. Some of the glow from the floors and stuff adds realism. The usual issue is that you have to mess with your config a little by setting things like

r_gamma (try increasing a little)
r_intensity (try increasing a little)
r_mapoverbrightbits (0 - 3 ) I think i have this at 1
seta r_overBrightBits (0 - 3)

and maybe a couple of other things.. these will illuminate areas and there is another overbrightbits setting which lightend up the item stuff. The bloom stuff is crap, keep that at 0


here is my conf settings, i dunno how old it is..

seta r_lastValidRenderer ""
seta r_bloom_fast_sample "0"
seta r_bloom_sample_size "128"
seta r_bloom_darken "4"
seta r_bloom_intensity "1.3"
seta r_bloom_diamond_size "8"
seta r_bloom_alpha "0.3"
seta r_bloom "0"
seta r_GLlibCoolDownMsec "0"
seta r_primitives "0"
seta r_railSegmentLength "62"
seta r_railCoreWidth "4"
seta r_railWidth "6"
seta r_facePlaneCull "1"
seta r_gamma "1.6"
seta r_swapInterval "0"
seta r_textureMode "GL_LINEAR_MIPMAP_NEAREST"
seta r_finish "0"
seta r_dlightBacks "1"
seta r_dynamiclight "1"
seta r_drawSun "0"
seta r_fastsky "0"
seta r_ignoreGLErrors "1"
seta r_flares "0"
seta r_lodbias "1"
seta r_lodCurveError "250"
seta r_ignoreFastPath "1"
seta r_smp "0"
seta r_subdivisions "12"
seta r_vertexLight "0"
seta r_simpleMipMaps "1"
seta r_customPixelAspect "1"
seta r_customheight "1024"
seta r_customwidth "1600"
seta r_fullscreen "1"
seta r_mode "4"
seta r_ignorehwgamma "0"
seta r_overBrightBits "0"
seta r_depthbits "0"
seta r_stencilbits "0"
seta r_stereo "0"
seta r_colorbits "0"
seta r_texturebits "0"
seta r_detailtextures "0"
seta r_roundImagesDown "1"
seta r_picmip "1"

Ok u son of a bitch!!! :D
I have an ATI radeon Xpress 200 series in my PC and a NVidia in my MAC...!!!!!
I DO have a good video card, I have 2..! and thats not the bussiness here, I hope you to open ur tiny mind and sit only one day and being an OA player, and u will notice that a lot of maps are better using vertex light...
Try to understand thats its not only about the god damn video card, its a freaking game style and performance we are talking about, and when I say WE I mean all the ppl is going to hate you, and give a shit about you and this project if u keep doing some "dumb-ass-things"
I got really exited when I came here, and Im still exited about this, I love OA, but you are not thinking clearly the things..

Just be a gamer one fucking day and you will understand US. I claim for ur time and your understanding...
Its not onle <<ME>> its a lot of ppl who think in the same way.


And you should try to be a bit polite, I know this is not easy to do, but its not worth to be a DICK like you do sometimes... and notice that I say SOMETIMES.


Thx a lot.
And sorry to the other gamers for my bad language, Im not like this usually and you know <<ME>>

omg.. i thought <ME> man was a moderator here :)

Have you tried jack thompsons config? I think he's went to extreme lengths to improve his game play.

I am a gamer, i've been gaming for over 20 years
i just don't game to absolutely-have-to-win motives for such cheats not letting the game look how it should look
i'll never understand the need to break fairness in a game with an obsolete feature for obsolete video hardware intended for hardware like Voodoo1/Banshee and RagePro no one really uses anymore.
Wake up people, it's 2008 and even onboard video can do enough good to not need vertex light!
Keeping Vertex Light... is like keeping Windows 3.1 installed... on your dual core 4ghz super computer!

I say goodbye to vertex lighting. It's a feature not required anymore.

The reason vertex was supported in the old days was because as fromhell said to allow lower end machines to run q3. Nowadays where a low end machine can play q3 on high setting & not break a sweat. Vertex lighting is not required anymore.

The only reason where you would want vertex lighting, is so you can visual see the other players clearer. Unlike the q3 where shadows didn't take a large part in the style of map, many OA maps do.

I dont see any reason why it should be removed, although I prefer lightmap. Even on low graphics I have dark maps which look good as any map on OA, most people use bright skins as it's the only way it's fair.

The people who dont use bright skins are usually on vertex, like I was, just to actually see things. However, sound is the most important thing. You are usually heard before you are seen so you know exactly where the enemy is. They all sound the same, you know your own team on TDM so it's more tactical. This is how I usually have it, http://q3eu.com/flash/wtf/  - as I believe it should be.

As had been pointed out, new people wont know how to create settings suitable that most others will have already set and gain more advantage.

It's not all about graphic cards, some monitors dont have the same brightness or LCD as many others. They may have drivers which are more likely to be low in gamma and brightness. If people are using high res they might find that vertex suits them better.

To say its more unfair is not true whatsoever. All you do is push up intensity and gamma and turn off effects and you have something even more awful than vertex.

So now we will have more glowing lights and effects but a player with that dark suit thing is messing around some dark spot and a player spawns or ends up under a light is not going to be comfortable stressing their eyes to get a closer look and have an equal chance as the guy who is looking up ready to kill. Colored crosshairs and the potential to hit an enemy with skill and precision were two things that gives people the option to use the atmospheric effects. Gameplay became fair and even, especially on TDM as it was all about two different teams, and defence and attack were much more important. I dont think many people would enjoy being hit in the back of the head by someone hiding in a dark spot behind boxes.

I also think this is a health and safety issue for people who react to strobes and ends up causing a fit. Anyone can have a map on a server with stuff like that which maybe completely unexpected. Cant there just be additional options to select brightbits or have a few default options that people can try and have vertex disabled on startup.... I find some maps have the same kind of visibility changing one or two options  because some are too dark and some have too much darkness or light from one area to another. I remember first playing and always found lightmap annoying because all the flashy stuff and distances were difficult to view while you were just trying to learn the map a little for the first time.



 

 

Being a sucker for eyecandy i personaly couldnt care less about this setting but its sure one of those things 'experienced' players totaly love and completly removing it is going to bring you alot of whine. Maybe its worth a thought giving server admins a way to force/restrict client cvars if they feel its too much or simply want to unify the way players see stuff and thereby redirecting the whining theyr way? :P

Even a thought of servers restricting cvars kicking out players harmlessly brings a lot of whine to the table
This is one of the reasons the project died in March because I really can't win on trying to get the game I intend to look since everyone plays it flat
annoying for someone pumping the detail 2x/3x.

hmm i forgot about intensity, there is a chance that might go too.

Well, as I said, of course you can do whatever you want fromhell, but you know that a lot of players wont agree with ur decisions... Oh, wait, one moment... who cares really?
And Mr. Oho, "experienced" players wont whine cause of this, we will find just another way to fight against THIS (http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/8083/tonyoadm2vs1.jpg), can you see the damn bot? Nooooo you cant!

Its ok if you are playing games like Hitman Blood Money or maybe if u play Doom3 but OA game style is completly different...
Anyways, as I said, I hope you are taking the best choice my friend, cause you should think in the whole community.

Ohoh what did i do :P

fromhell:

Agreed thered still be whining but it wouldnt be you (or the project) who is the bad boy but the evil admin who restricted it. Also it would leave the descission to the player to join a server that deprives them of theyr beloved 'nightsight' or simply looking somewhere else. And i also agree kicking people for violations 'punkbuster style' is bad but restrictions wouldnt have to be enforced by kicking people. Forcing cvars to the nearest 'legal' value would work just fine. I dont say its perfect but maybe worth a thought.

<< ME >>:

Well i can. Its hard but i see him and no not just because he has a chat sprite above his head. Anyways it wouldnt matter much if i didnt. I call it whining because people dont want the setting for what its intended to be but to make areas visible that arent supposed to. If you just want fair play thats fine with me but then the best solution would possibly be giving everyone the same (dis-)advantage (read as: forced models/skins - yes its not that easy in team based gametypes) than removing the problematic areas. Btw: I dont think it matters much what game you play. Seeing targets as early as possibly is always an advantage.

It would help to see him if you didn't delete his textures.

Problem is, that the cvars in question require a renderer restart.

it's not my loss since popularity is not really my goal (expecting for this sentence to be taken completely out of context like OMG I HATE THE PLAYERS). OA is experiemental and if I do something that happens to piss off the 'pros' then so be it.
See the screenshots in this post to see why keeping vertex lighting would mean anti-advancement.
0.8.0 will be the missionpack version and missionpack will definitely call for terrain maps like that, so I can't let this stupid crap happen.

Haha this is kinda cruel xD Didnt know it could have effects this drastic. The poor guy would possibly spend half his time running into invisible walls :P

Editwar:


Nothing stopping the client from doing this ;) But with this kinda screenshots its possibly not worth it.

I didnt delete any texture..!

And you are right, there are SOME maps, only a few.. mainly water maps where vertex is completly a disadvantage, but in some others like the pic I posted its useful, and a lot.!


And I would like to ask you fromhell to put a message so every ASSHOLE can read, something like "if you are not going to apport anything and just talking shit and making fun of something serious, then dude, shut ur mouth and go watch some p0rn or something"
Is that possible??
Mr Oho can make a good use of that.. :D

Thanks for ur time fromhell

Haha what does apport mean? I have a feeling your trying to flame me but im not sure as i dont understand what you say :P

I REPEAT

"if you are not going to --contribute-- and just talking shit and making fun of something serious, then dude, shut ur mouth and go watch some p0rn or something"

And yes, sorry, In my rush I wrote shit.
Its not my intention to fight with anyone, so plz, dont post a reply to this.

Thanks

ROFL you crack me up! I contribute some SERIOUS thoughts (that actualy argue at least a bit in YOUR FAVOR) then accuse me of talking shit without commenting on anything i sayd and request me not to reply xD Haha your funny...

P.S.: Dont reply to that not because i dont wanna fight but because i just love having the last word xD

hehe.. ok, This became funny, yes u did some nice posts, but you are not doing it now.! haha
PERIOD.! :D

Ok ok, lets go back to the main topic and wait for fromhell's answer.

Agreed :P

PERIOD:! :D

That picture you posted is mainly down to poor lighting. Unless the map was deliberately designed to have such dark shadows.

I myself don't deliberately create shadows that dark, unless I want a specifically dark area, for hiding etc. Proper lighting should enhance a maps visuals but not restrict in a serious way the ability to see.

Luckily the map is Open Source. ;)

Yes I understand that, I can make it "brighter" but my eyes say OUCH! even if its a dark place it should be possible to see everything, like u do in Doom 3 for example..!

My apologies for not making it clearer. But what I said was in-reference as the map developer, & not just a gamer. The mapper can decide how dark or light he wants to make his shadows, I personally try to keep shadows in my maps visible but at the same time not pitch black that you cant see the texture underneath.

I personally find the shadows in that particular map to be too dark.

Thanks for the explanation and Sir. You are right. Some maps are too dark and thats not good at all.
How can it be fixed without increasing the brightness and hurting the player's sight?   Easy... vertex..!! :D

But wait, thats not all..
There are some maps with too many textures too and those textures make sometimes hard to see ur enemy, even if u are using Force Player Model or some brightskins... How can we solve that??? Vertex!  :D

Its not about winning all the time, its about enjoy the game for real.! and I do... with Vertex ...!! :D :D

No taking the source & modifying the lighting to suit. The joys of having the source files available. :)

In fact for that particular map it should just be a case of a simple command: ambient 5
Then a simple re-compile. Job done. :)

That command will overall lighten the map & lighten the shadows to a more respectable level.

Im sorry, maybe you think Im stubborn, but I just want to give you my reasons...

Yes, of course u can modify the source and everything... but... Who is gonna take that responsability?? as I said there are many maps like that "darky" one and lets dont lie each other, thats gonna take a lot of time...

And Yes.! we can use that superhyper cool command, but only the ppl who KNOW about those commands... You may think, wait the Admins should know about that... well... unfortunately... NO! not all the admins out there know the commands!

But ok, that can be solved too, how? posting a list of "useful commands for Admins", and Who is gonna do that??? Im asking you because when someone asked for a simillar post!! no one said even "fuck you Im bussy" nor "Im sorry bud, I have not enough time for that" so... thats why Im telling you all this..!

You are right, but who is going to make all that stuff ?? and do it properly...!?

Besides, maybe Im wrong, but, removing Vertex light is not going to spend some usefull time to do some other important things?
Or its just about a "delete  button" thing?

Well for starts you could. The sources are available for all in the SVN. The amount of maps in the SVN that need minor tweaks, like lighting are very small. Most default maps are fairly respectable when it comes to lighting.

There are many mappers around these forums willing to resolve errors. So long as there is a bug report stating a problem.


If your referring to the "ambient 5" command that's for the q3map2 compiler at development. It's not a server nor client command.


Admins should know all the commands they need. When it comes to poor lighting that's solely on the level of knowledge & skill of the developer. It has nothing to do with Admins. There are list all over the internet about commands you can use in q3 engine.


Generally the developer of the map or code or whatever will take sole responsibility. As developers always want to fix problems arisen in their own work. However if these bugs are not made aware to the developer. Then he will not do anything about it. If the developer is no longer there then someone else will resolve the problem. For example: me(kit89).


Sorry, but that made no sense to me...

Yes, sorry that has no sense  :D ... I mean, Why remove vertex if we can just let the things as the way they are now...?

Because vertex lighting is in short crap. Unfair, & in the modern day of computers not required. :)

And we get back to the begining...  **sigh**
Its not crap, not unfair and sometimes it IS required... anyways.. thats my opinion...
As I said, fromhell.. dont do this plz!!!  reconsider everything what we've posted. !

And now for something completly different :P

I know it has been mentioned before but from what i saw there wasnt realy any reply on it and i fear it might be forgotten :P Is there any chance of seeing cl_allowDownload default to 1? As long as the engine by default doesnt run native code i dont see a security problem with this and it would greatly help the distribution of custom maps and mods.

No way in hell:
- Security reasons, i mean would you like to autodownload a unbindall pak?
- Non-Free content reasons, there are people iffy about Free Software obtaining non-Free stuff by default.
- It's up to the user's discretion to enable it at their own risk.

Sad but true your right :( But maybe some nice message? That surely wouldnt hurt anyone :P

My thoughts on on vertex lighting:

• It is harder to find graphics hardware that doesn't handle lightmapping than hardware that does nowadays.
• As for darkness, vertex lighting is not a substitute for correct monitor adjustment.
• Being able to aim at players in intentionally dark areas of a map is a skill, and using vertex lighting to compensate for a lack of this skill is cheating.

I don't think it's necessary to keep it.

I dont know how long you have known this game but I wouldn't say it it falls under the category of crap since I would be able to create the same effect using a combination of cvars. I wouldn't need r_intensity.

I have no idea how you find it unfair, when people have options to change their display, including their driver settings, then in theory, maybe about 90% of the people are playing unfairly by your logic.

It is clear the some maps are created with a lack of lighting therefore there has to be some substitute, you think brightness is enough for this huh?

So unless you are able to disable my driver settings along with about 6 cvars then perhaps you could say it's fair, for all the people with good spec systems.

Now someone suggests hitting a dark player in a dark corner is a skill. What if that dark player is seeing you as a fat green fairy with a pointy hat with a letter D on it. Think again.

cl_allowdownload doesnt matter. That will dissapear too. It will be one of the last things to go from the client options. If it does still exist in the future then it will be restricted to a selection of paks classified and only downloadable by sources OpenArena dev team. Remember this is an experimental project.

God, I can't wait to see what good stuff is contained in the next release that will motivate any admin to download it :)

So I take it these changes wont be implemented ioq3? You know, the people you only hear about when things go wrong with OA.

As far as I see it, this is a non-issue. It only affects people who play on servers which are absolutely clean from any additional custom code, and they are using nothing else other than the baseoa packages.

When the day comes that a user has no config or options to change and unable to enjoy anything that is ONLY available from the OA experiment then good luck with that.

Mr. Oho, do not expect any answers to your questions. You are more likely to be considered a parisite  as the download option will be of benefit to you - not to the OA experient. That is why there is a lack of input from anyone knowledgable contributing in this thread. btw. Some peoples first native language may not be English, maybe worth considering before laughing at people, I can see alot of people appear to be French, but it is perhaps easier to understand these words than some others.

edit: oops i better fix my own mistakes first :) especially since i am an english speaker, but I just woke up so there maybe others :D

what kind of conspiracy are you cooking
i'm gonna split this thread up
i AM definitely considering removal of vertex lighting since the defense behind it is usually unrealistic whine
I think Quake Live might remove vertex lighting too
it's time to move on
whether this makes me lose 99% of the player base doesn't matter, i'd rather get this project evolving looking as intended than to cater to a few fullbright freaks.

It also doesn't take much to play at max detail with lightmaps at a great framerate (100+), a sweet athlon 700mhz rig with a geforce2mx can do it just fine at max, and that's considered ancient by today's AND yesterday's standards.

You're making me wish I wasn't developing OA because I have to put up with all these vertexlight-loving dorks. What if you were in my shoes, would you like to make art and maps with atmospheric shadows that would be thrown away by those who play to win? There's a game for those (http://warsow.net)
It's no problem for Nexuiz since their community isn't inherited from Q3.
I'm going to lock this for now because I am upset
whether this spells the fate for the next version will be decided later
i've had it and you're going to have to fucking live with it. There is no logically convincing reason to keep it

i AM also definitely considering removal of intensity
it is a blatant cheat, makes invisible players visible and craps the graphics quake2 style and it was intended for video cards without hardware gamma (powervr pcx1/2), which is a extreme rarity nowadays and won't even work with the game anyway.
(http://openarena.ws/shots/fun/intensity4.jpg)
i'm supposed to be invisible

aye i use r_intensity, together with r_overbrightbits 0 and r_mapoverbrightbits 0-2. gives softer look

about that removals...

what will happen if someone will use a custom build of the engine with vertex or intensity re-enabled? is it possible to avoid that changing something in pk3s? because that would really be a way to cheat, imho...

I thought about this too but gave it up because the person who would do this possibly already build an engine that doesnt display walls or shadows or anything at all... ;/ The answer to all these problems is anticheat support but its a hard task and of questionable value as all of these things get circumvented or cracked.

i agree. but this time risks to be even worse: the cheating guys will not need to write any line of code, since it will be still awailable on ioq3 svn, ready to be enabled again…

i have a feeling that most of the players out there, actually see the game as fromhell had intended it to be. i for one like the game the way that it is and i haven't messed around with any setting other than these

/rate 25000
/snaps 30
/cl_maxpackets 30
/cl_packetdup 1
/cg_smoothClients 1
/cg_truelightning 1
/cg_fov 112
/com_maxfps 125
/cg_lagometer
/cg_showfps
/cg_drawtimer
/com_hunkmegs 128
/com_soundmegs 16
/com_maxfps 125

because for me it would change it for the worst. i couldn't stand to look at it with vertex and all the settings to make it easier to see in the shadows etc ugh. i like eye candy and so do most non pro people, we play for fun yeah. i have learned to tell when others are using these things and worse some people can actually see through the walls etc, these people are a joke, where is the skill in that lol, and you know that even though i am no pro i can beat them 1 on 1 most times coz they are not used to playing skillfully.

So fromhell, please for our sakes don't let this non issue get you upset you are doing a great job stay true to yourself and thank you for a splendid game.

A special server or two for hardcore would probably help the situation they could do what the fcuk they like together lol. But seriously most of us see the game way you intended and have no desire to dick with it.

There aint no point in winning if ur a lame ass cheater an u all know that!

So kream you never use RAZ3R's brightskin pack? Not even on CE1M7 where your player model suddenly becomes Grism instead the girl you normally use? :-)

Well all this 'professional' visual aids are no different than the rather illicit use in performance-enhancing drugs in sports (in REAL LIFE)

Winners don't do drugs

the question was not directed to me, but i haven't. and i will not.

No Andrew i don't use it and i have no idea why my model becomes Grism instead of Sly, i never even knew that.
Maybe you should talk to me more often than u do lol.
im new to this, some maps are too dark admittedly but i just think, hell the next map will be different OA_DM3 is way too dark for me, so some sort of compromise should be arranged i guess.
i feel that setting the game up to suit a persons eyesight, monitor, etc is a valid thing and should not be considered a cheat but i have to fall in with fromhell here when taken to the extreme it is detrimental to the game.
Actually im quite lazy when it comes to config stuff and i just drag the brightness slider up a bit to compensate coz i really just want to get in there and frag about, so watch out im coming after u with that saw that i owe u buddy, lol.. ;-)

Chances are the server doesn't have Sly and runs 0.7.6 / 0.7.7. Pure servers would Grism you up

Sly would make a return if someone really did some good looking polish on the skin. Until then, she's retired.

Ah ok, I apologise for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

Come on you've pummelled me heaps of times now, you don't need to be sour kream :)

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That can be considered an accusation. Do you have any proof of this?

cl_maxpackets 30 is the default value and should be enough. Unless the server has a high sv_fps enabling cg_smoothclients should prevent warping.

Not that I am that experienced in Quake network technology. I use http://ucguides.savagehelp.com/Quake3/connection.html as source.

EDIT:
0.7.6+ does no longer have cg_smoothclients because the unlagged code has an improved way that can compensate for higher packet loss with far better prediction. It might still be relevant in mods.

---

This is an age old discussion.

Could you possibly post a demo of this? Maybe with /players output so its possible to see what rate/packet settings these guys are at? Some scoreboard to get a feeling for their overall pings wouldnt hurt either ;)

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It's fact. 30 is recommended for modems. rate at 25000? Well that definately does not make any sense. He probably loses  an extra bit of ping and believes less ping = better. If you want a faster network performance set rate at 15000  and set packets at 60. If you ping increases a little and your rate is stable you might find it better if you forget about what your ping is. You send the server more info to calculate your position more accurately then it also applies to the position of the enemy. This is more an issue with rail players as you need accurate hits. I force that setting to a minimum of 60. A very good player will be able to tell if your using 30 max_packets.

Ok guys, now i am really confused.
What is this warping thing, i have never seen anyone warping.
Pls could someone tell me what to set /cl_maxpackets ?
i have a crap ping all the time and even on the Australian server which is closest it is rarely below 90. :(

Andrew, you are forgiven :)

How would i go about doing that, as i have a term break coming up and could do it then.

You arent the only one. In short cl_maxpackets seems (at least from my _short_ look over the source so take what i say with a grain of salt :P) to control the number of input updates packets per second  the client sends to the server. Low values save a bit of network traffic by stuffing more updates into 1 single packet and thereby saving overhead of additional packet headers. So the real questions (that im far to lazy to investigate... someone else wanna waste time? :P) is how will the server handle a couple of input updates arriving at once.

I have experimented a bit with it in ET (yeah that might not be representative for Quake3 because of maybe different antilag code) and was unable get any decent jerkyness. At least thats what the guys watching me said. Anyways theres a server setting in ETPro that limits the maximum way a player can warp so there has to be a problem with this somewhere. Im pretty sure bani would implement this if it was nonsense. If its related to netsettings i dont know... Thats why i was kinda interested in seeing it in a demo.

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when rtcw was new there was talk about players using 'warp scripts'. by changing different network settings by keybinds they supposedly got very difficult to hit, when they wanted to. i'm really not sure if it worked or not. after some patches the network settings required a "/restart" to activate new settings, this must've made 'warp scripts' pretty useless as you're basically a sitting duck while your computer restarts the level with the new settings.

note that i'm not entirely sure if that was the reason for the need to restart or if it actually worked, but i know there was some talk about these scripts.

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Even if was in charge of stuff here (i am NOT an OpenArena developer) i couldnt fix something i cant reproduce. Im simply trying to get a clear picture.


From my understanding the server takes the recieved input (i would assume it will just take last input recieved) and generates sv_fps frames from it. This is what gets send to to clients then. So maybe antilag code (im totaly ignorant here sry) gets confused by unusual movement patterns caused by using out of date input on the server? :S


Im sorry but i dont get what that should tell me. If i was to decide on it id go for a limit on warp range as this seems to be a tested cure - whatever its caused by in the end.


To my best knowledge a demo is a dump of network traffic. So id think it would pretty much reproduce the same enviroment.


Yeah thats why i said its an age old discussion. I dont deny that warping players are a problem (if bani thinks so i wont argue with it :P). I just havent realy noticed it and wasnt able to reproduce it by playing with client settings (at least on ET) so it took its place in the ranks of "high pingers cause server lag" and "timenudge has effects that are noticeable for other players" for me ;)

Unless it ignores packet headers its not that suprising as maxpackets is designed to save overhead data. So 70 less packets = 560bytes less overhead.

Edit: Yeah i know i know should have put this in the last post but i was to late when i realized. Sorry :/

Btw: I totaly agree those who can afford it should use a high setting. It can only benefit them. I just dont feel the default is such a bad thing.

heheh I'm sorry I didn't know you were in Australia :) Those settings might not be so bad after all if your playing on Europe servers. You are right about one thing. Vertex is a non issue. I play for fun, all the best players I've known use lightmap. It is the only way you can adjust your levels perfectly to suit, and also because you *can* better performance if you decide to pass on the eye candy.  Players will use floor shadows as guides and learn where where people spawn and make a long jump to a ledge. Anyone can adjust their screen to many different variants with lightmap. If you were to dig out configs of good players you see how much they differ, some look horrible but it obviously suits them. The ONLY reason in my own opinion people would use vertex is simply for performance and then they can increase detail etc because it's not using the cpu resource of the effects.

With rate/maxpackets etc, it's pretty much the same. It can be very complex when playing with delag and playing on servers with pmove_accurate (noghost cpma osp etc). There are rounding calculations and if you feed the server with less packets it will do the work for you. But if you actually play very accurately then you will get better timing and able to move around more flexable. There are also different variations of delag and typically the more you increase the delag, the more restrictive your movement will be. delag version2 works very well with pmove_accurate and I can easily play people in the US who have 250 - 300 ping and not notice any difference. Everything is fair. With rail games I tend to put splash damage up a little on the rail gun so that anyone using low maxpackets wont get any advantage.

So in your case, if you have a stable rate / route then I would try rate at 10000 and cl_maxpackets at 60. I have my snaps at 40 and a I prefer to have a server with sv_fps 30. Most servers have 20 fps so I guess your snaps is just right.

I agree, I do not think it matters so much and if it bothers admins they can reduce the maxrate or increase the packets.

It might have been an issue in the past but not so much now. I do remember one player telling some other guy to increase packets from 30. It's the first time I've ever heard anyone complain about it. His rate was 25000 and was a good player but he good reason because his isp restricted his upstream far more than what he could recieve.

Just to complicate thing further, alot of times you may not be playing with the settings you think you are. I remember making most cvars unrestrictive so that people with high performance machines and network to take advantage of it (I personally think it makes little diff) and then people complained about performance issues. Obviously because their setttings were too high and they previously used the servers defaults. I just put the setttings back, they had slightly less ping, and they were happy :) I also don't see the point of having your rate at 25000 when the server might have a max value of 10000. If your network can easily cope with it then I guess it no loss, but it certainly affects me.
 

missbehaving, big thanks for clarifying this. :)

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ok

Something I noticed last night, I had fps at 30, must have set it by mistake thinking it was the server.  I didn't really notice it at first but when I looked at my ping it was at an average of 25 it's usually about 60. If players have bad ping then they might be better using 85 which is default.  I know optimum momvement is achieved at 125 but the difference will hardly have any affect in game.  As long as it's stable, it's fine.  You'll certainly be able to move around much better than fps which drops and changes often. This is because the calculations of movement will be wrong and you'll just slow down instantly. I'm not sure but if you had 250 fps and that drops to 220 and back up again is far worse than a stable 85. I think the 85 fps player will be running around faster than the other player

Also, you usually have to use g_sync* 1 clients to record a demo. You notice the lag since your synced to the actual server  itself. I wonder if this would be a good way to test your network settings and compare them as your more likely to feel how the server responds to what data your sending. Anyone tried this?

i was on 128kbit (16kb/s (LAN cable)) for long time and i used maxpackets 100, all was fine. its the high ping and lag spikes that u see. maybe on analogue telefone line with shitty ATC (common in russia) you would want to set maxpackets 30.
also u would think- 128kbit? that dude must be lagging? i had 30 ping to sweden, which is about 500km away, and 60 ping to russia servers, which is also 500km away. also i played korean mmorpg fine, which is 2 oceans away.

for info :

Tested 8 servers today on 0.7.1 (well it only took a minute to verify ) which I had problems with and I found that in every instance the r_detailtexture thing was the cause of all issues, some of the configs I had were incredibly low in detail. I do not have a great deal of free RAM,  could that possibly be a likely cause of performance issues if the game is trying to free up and allocate RAM  or do these get loaded at start up?

The map i used to test was xcm_tricks2 in the second set of strafe lanes. I use jacks texture mod, the only other thing I could note is that there are transparent glass /windows.

could i ask the developers not to mess with openal anymore? the realisation in 7.6 and 7.7 is nice, oa runs on slacky out of the box.
for 7.1 it complained about missing libopenal.so or smth like that. so i dl it, compile it and install (it didnt give any errors or messages about dependencies). but then oa 7.1 still didnt run. ok i left it at that.
next time i wanted to try out the 7.7 binary without SDL input from RN (i havent played 7.1 before, my 1st try was 7.6). it complained again about openal missing. so i tried to install it using slapt-get. openal was in the repository but it showed dependancy- smpeg and svglalib. ok i installed those 1st and then openal using slapt-get.
so i could run the RN binary but i didnt like the sens feeling, too used to SDL i guess. when i ran back the original oa binary of 7.7 it gave me lower fps, i could feel it on oasago2, it was way jerkier. so i removed the installed packages (smpeg, svgalib and openal) using slapt-get again, run back the 7.7 binary and it was fine again.
so i ask not to mess with different openal implementations, its fine like it is in 7.7 =)

but if we don't have openal then we miss a lot of cool things like >22khz sampling rate without crashes (this is why around some 1.27 q3 patch they goofed up the sound code that freezes the game on music playback at anything other than 22khz so they forced it to 22khz regardless due to this horrid bug) and also positional audio (which is damn well important to gameplay) !

imho the current implementation, as explained some time ago by sago007, it's a very good choice: if the system has openal oa will use it, if not it will not refuse to start.

the only (minor) problem i can see is on some posix (and windows?) machines: if the openal libs aren't installed in the usual path i have the impression that oa will not find them and will start without openal.
maybe this could be solved searching the libs in the same folder of oa and instructing the people that wants openal but has those systems to place some symlinks here...

7.6 and 7.7 works fine without need to install anything. should stick with this implementation, whatever it is.

A few weeks ago I was running 0.7.7 and it had a nice effect where you could hear where rail shots were hitting (when the player missed).  I never heard that before... was this an addition or maybe an audio setting set to on with a new config? It was a great way to guess the location of enemys or team mates if you hear where the missed shots are hitting.

I guess this post will look stupid if it's some audio effect I never knew I had :D

Any update on the progress of 0.8.0? It would be nice to have some idea of the projected release date.

August 8
i'm rapidly rushing myself to work on 0.8.0 and i know we are going to miss some things we've wanted for this release like a new gauntlet :(

Thanks, fromhell. Hopefully the Ubuntu folks will add it to the repositories in a timely manner.

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Just gonna give my two cents on taking the various options (that's right, OPTIONS..not cheats) out of the next release.  Taking out vertex is not a gigantic deal, if you don't want people to be able to tweak their config (which is what made q3 so f'ing popular btw, along with the gameplay) then just play your games single player, never have to worry about cheaters there.  My view on cheating is that if it's not altered files as in going in to map files and making walls grids or see-through, or a third party program that will move your mouse for you, then it's not cheating.  If you say it was put in for old hardware, I'll take your word for it since I never talked to anyone from id about it.  So while you are forcing everyone to play with dark settings, shadows, more difficult to see, etc, why not take out the ability to change gamma, brightbits, overbrightbits, intensity (oh wait you're taking that too!).  A little birdie told me you don't like non standard fov's either?  Perhaps those are cheating because it lets you see more side to side.  By that I assume you walk around wearing horse blinders all day and just look at what is right in front of you. 

Now to the more logical part.  IF people are convinced that vertex lighting is advantageous, why would they not use it?  Maybe I'm just coming from a different background, but if I play a game then I would like to get better and improve in as many ways as possible in that game.  So if vertex lighting helps someone see better, which uh is kind of important?..to see what you're shooting at? then that's just ridiculous to take that out.  It was mentioned that jack thompson (HIJACKTHOMPSON) heavily edited his config file.  I did the same and I'm proud of the time I put in to it and the result.

To me this just boils down to people wanting to find an excuse to call players, who have taken the time to explore all the options that were meant to be in the q3 engine and found vertex, cheaters.  Speaking of cheating, word on the street is that scripts are cheating, such as rocket jump scripts.  I wouldn't call them cheating, but perhaps frowned upon.  Do I have one?  several.  But it's easier and more effective to just learn to rocket jump properly.  And get this, another little birdie told me that Ms. Developer Lady uses a script to strafe (if that's the truth, ROFL).

So here are some more commands that should be controlled or just taken out completely:

r_gamma
r_mapoverbrightbits
r_overbrightbits
r_intensity
sensitivity
cg_fov
cg_thirdperson
say_team
messagemode1
bind
+button3
+moveup

In regards to that screenshot you posted where you are supposed to be invisible, those must be some ridiculous settings and unless you post here telling everyone how to get it like that, I think you're safe from those cheating bastards.  Also, you can see the person with invisibility even with vertex 0, you just have to look harder.

Most of this was towards fromhell but also to IronWall and ThePlayer, who think I'm an illegit hacker because I may or may not use vertex light.

Odigo

P.S. - You should listen to sago if you're intent on "getting rid of it," just take it out of menus and you won't have problems.
P.S.S. - I think it's apparent that I have no intention of downloading 0.8.0, but this was the appropriate place to post.

oh the drama. Get over it. Vertex light is a cheat and you know it. Not only that but it's an obsolete cvar considering today's hardware and even integrated graphics. The only legit use of vertex light is if you have an ATI Rage Pro, which were prevalent on OEM machines in 1999 still (hence the existing of that option). It doesn't exist to fill your advantageous needs but it sure is abused for it.
Battlefield 2 and Counter Strike has no similar cvars and they're monumentally more popular than Q3A.

Just wanted to give you some support, fromhell, since this thread is mostly filled with people very upset about your decision. I'm very much looking forward to 0.8, and hope these types of changes help level the playing field between those that choose not to exploit the game options and those that choose to do so. Before anyone gets angry, let me say that everyone has their own definition of cheating, and the more conservative people (e.g. those that oppose using vertex lighting) are obviously at a significant disadvantage in OA right now. It doesn't matter whether those on the conservative or liberal side of tweaking are "right" (they're opinions, so no one can say that either is more correct, anyway). As a "conservative" player, the changes will certainly be beneficial to me by leveling the field, though I know more liberal tweakers will find their play hampered. People who don't like the changes can always play an older version or fork the project, so there isn't much reason to get too bent out of shape (though debate and discussion are obviously warranted).

As an aside, in response to Odigo/porn's question about why I don't use those types of tweaks:
In my opinion (which you may not share), it's analagous to athletes taking steroids. The debate is really quite similar, with some saying there's no reason not to do something that enhances your performance and is available to anyone (it can also be argued that it levels discrepancies due to genetics) while others prefer what they call a more "pure" or "level" environment. It's obviously not worth getting into that debate here. I'm simply pointing out that there are two sides to the issue and providing a well-known and oft-debated example to make my position clear without going into a long explanation. The complication is that pro sports have rules about steroids (so taking them is cheating regardless of whether they should be allowed), and OA/quake has no comparable central authority (fromhell can't fine you for doing something she doesn't want you to do). It's an open question. I stand by my position, and you are free to disagree. Ethics aren't a simple thing, and we must each draw the line where we feel it belongs.

(IMO) vertex light is not a cheat, and no I don't know it, as you say.  I think this is honestly the first time in my life that I have been so baffled by someones opinion that the only comment that comes to mind is "What?!?"  That being said, I'm done calling you names, we're friends now.

As for leveling the playing field, if you think that someone using vertex light is the reason they are better than you, then you are sorely mistaken.  Sure they might get one or two more kills per game because of it, but they are better because they have either been playing longer, trying harder, listening to tips/strategies and taking them to heart, or they have a natural talent.  And if you think that getting rid of shadows is part of it, try cg_shadows 0 and see if that's cheating.

As for the commands I listed, LOL, yeah.  Seriously though, what about r_singleshader and r_fullbright ?  Don't know if those work in OA but the former makes the whole map look like a black and white checkered grid, hard to navigate but easy to see models, and the latter is essentially a wallhack but you can still see little sparkly things on the walls so you can get around quite nicely...plus see through walls.  Enjoy.

Ah, but sometimes one or two kills decides a game. Many CTF matches are won by a single cap, and it only takes one kill to stop the flag from getting capped or to protect the carrier. Obviously, I'm not nearly as skilled as the top players, but if you have a team of people who use such tweaks fighting against a team that doesn't, even the one or two kills per game per player you mentioned can quickly balloon into a much greater advantage. Putting my abilities aside, what if it were a clan match? If you have two roughly equally-skilled clans playing, such tweaks can become a deciding factor.

you can never make it an even playingfield since you can't force people to use exactly the same settings/hardware. it's just impossible. and sadly - this discussion is pointless - fromhell has made clear that vertex is going out (how stupid it imo ever may be). it wouldn't make a difference if we had a poll and the result was 1047 to 1 if we should keep or remove vertex lighting. fromhell would still have the final word. discussion/arguments doesn't help in this case.

now i'm not saying a poll would end that way, just trying to make a point =)

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"modern systems?" Give me a break, a Voodoo2 can handle the game without vertex light. Vertex light option is designed for the earlier, 96/97 gen cards that did not have multitexturing which every card since 1998 pretty much had. Multitexturing speeds things up and makes very little difference in performance when switching from vertex and versa. Vertex lighting doesn't even improve performance on 486 or Pentium machines with a Voodoo2.
Your REAL performance issues come from r_detailTextures, since unlike Q3A, OA takes advantage of this cvar to put some extra detail layers on some shaders.

And i've already stated that removing Vertex (and I mean REMOVING) is final. There will be no amount of persuasion to make me think otherwise.

Unleash your Godwin's Law now.

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well one of the things i will replace in OA is the what-is-pretty-looking bullet impacts, for classic style bullet impacts that won't choke fillrate. This is the reason why machinegun/shotgun fire is so slow for you guys because I wanted to try a fun convincing shader experiment.

I mean lol, check it out (http://openarena.ws/shots/oldcard/powervrkyro2/thepolys.jpg)

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how about adding the "r_detailTextures" as a toggle in the video settings menu?
it would fit in right among the others like wall marks, ejecting brass and stuff.

i don't think there's that many people aware that r_detailTextures is in the game?

is it on as default?

yes
r_detailTextures requires a restart, so it belongs in the video menu, taking Vertex light's place ;)

openal causes system hangs for me if anything else is trying to use the sound card (even windows sounds) and its also very choppy so i have to use the alternative or not hear what is going on and get hangs where i have to pull the plug out to get it working again.  about vertex lighting...  to me it seems a grey area, if one uses it and another doesnt its an advantage but the option is there for both at the moment to use it if they want the same visibility.  it may not be so bad it being removed, there is the option to use bright skins on both sides for clan matches .  lightmap and dark areas can only improve your awareness to subtle stuff outside of any serious games.  you know like how often you only see a part of the other player nip past through a gap...  then know what they are going for..  if playing before in lightmap you would likely see it much better when you switch to promode or bright skins for a serious game.  i know my awareness goes up when i play in lightmap mostly then play with rat (the bot) in cpma once in a while.  really its not the end with vertex gone...  and too bad about the new gauntlet, i think the quake 3 gauntlet is much cooler at the moment than the current lol.  vertex may not be so much an issue to me as another tho, because i get 125fps at full quality on most maps but someone with a lower end card, not a mid range card like mine may need some game settings changed to get 125fps at 1280x1024, like maybe picmip but vertex may be a stretch.  i am just tossing some things in to the discussion here, like reminding you of bright skins for player visibility and another option to get a higher frame rate.  i only use the promode ones when in promode btw, where everyone has very visible characters.  i mean if its not a fair game its only worth playing if you are a god like player and most are not, except maybe vo0 the human aimbot.  i'm looking forward to 0.8.0.  if the clans keep sticking to older versions because of the new mouse input and vertex i'll always have trouble playing because the mouse doesnt work correctly for me in those versions so i keep having to either open the console and type \-attack or click away until it works again which means you are an easy frag and outweighs any other benefits even a wallhack could give lol.