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Title: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: CFQ on July 14, 2008, 07:50:24 AM ----
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: fufinha on July 14, 2008, 11:36:26 PM How do you feel about pure? pros/cons?
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: CFQ on July 15, 2008, 08:11:42 AM ----
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: fufinha on July 16, 2008, 11:55:45 PM I thought the title of the topic suggested recommendations for competitions. I mentioned pure as being a possible addition to the stuff you mentioned, not an alternative.
There are alternatives to pure, I only know of the noghost security features, but they will not be GPL because that would just be silly to have open source anti cheat code. I just guessed.. hoped there would be nice surprises in version 0.8 :D Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: fromhell on July 17, 2008, 12:06:06 AM Pure is great
don't be having high expectations for 0.8.0 in baseoa though, most of the 0.8.0 stuff is already exposed as 0.7.6! Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: CFQ on July 17, 2008, 06:39:11 AM ----
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: lml{-_-}lml on July 17, 2008, 07:13:31 AM Just something that popped in my head.
Why not Force the player to make a demo of themselfes playing the match. Then After gameplay, that demo has to be submitted to a judging panel for match validation So any weird stuff that is going on and that is detectable on a demo, show?? Drawback is ofcourse the official results of the match is not instant. I mean, the game can be althered anyway so, you never can detect ALL things that are an unfair advantage. And there are always people smarter then the system who find the loopholes You can develop till ya see green but in the end, everything can be hacked althered or whatever its called. You cant make a game cheatfree ( maybe OA on the wii is cheatfree) But hey Im just a gamer and dont have the knowlegde of developing like you have. greatz Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: Cacatoes on July 17, 2008, 09:07:14 AM Reminds me of the DRMs problem.
Prevent technically someone, really ... you can just try to limit it. Cheating is possible simple because there is a will to cheat, even dumb people can do that if smarter guys offer them solutions. So, just develop some trivial things so that it's not blatently accessible to the noobest, and community and will to play fairly will do the rest. Mods (CPMA ... ) act as some kind of standards defining how the game should be play, Vanilla versions do the same. Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: fufinha on July 17, 2008, 10:39:52 AM Mods (CPMA ... ) act as some kind of standards defining how the game should be play, Vanilla versions do the same. Yes that's what I have been trying to explain to others :D There is a standard config which encourages server admins to adopt the same defaults. I remember playing someone and he kept going on about the server being 'fast rail'. Fast rail is normally 1/2 the reload time of the default (750 instead of 1500). It seemed normal to me so I was disagreeing with him but he kept kicking my ass :D Turned out that the rail reload time was 1450.. he must have noticed this tiny difference and was good enough to take advantage of it. I just press the button as normal, since you get used to the default setting. on clanbase dot com there are often noghost and cpma tournaments, they have rules and standards. I remember trying servers on 1.32 and every server seemed different.. it's ok to try them out but I probably would never revisit any of them. Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: Mr. Oho on July 17, 2008, 11:50:59 AM 1 . Allmost aimbot - aimshoot - autoshoot - aided shoot software work on windows only. Haha nice one :P I wanted to argue about this but when i went to my beloved scumbag site i saw they "dont support linux". Pretty funny since Linux has some obvious advantages in the world of PB. Well i guess PB is so useless anyways the guys dont need any advantages... 2 . kernel >= 2.6.22 randomize base memory allocation so it should be very difficult ( impossible ) for a remote external program to attach to client code execution and manipulating data input/output and -fstack-protector add a protection against code that tries to attach to client trough buffer/heap overflow. Hmm id rather say a bit more difficult. Maybe im missing something but scanning for what you want doesnt sound so hard? Prevent technically someone, really ... you can just try to limit it. Cheating is possible simple because there is a will to cheat, even dumb people can do that if smarter guys offer them solutions. 100% agree. Why not Force the player to make a demo of themselfes playing the match. Then After gameplay, that demo has to be submitted to a judging panel for match validation So any weird stuff that is going on and that is detectable on a demo, show?? Movement/shooting wise yes. But who is going to watch hours of demos to find that suspicious 3 seconds? Sure you can identify the idiot that keeps shooting heads behind a wall but but with any non idiot i fear its going to be alot of work to find anything that could be called proof :S So the answer is? Snake oil ala PB is better than nothing?? Im not that sure but it would definatly be an instersting project for whoever has the nerves/time. As much as i am with the unbreakable is impossible crowd its sure possible to make breaking a matter of serious sweat, tears and brain damage ;) Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: CFQ on July 17, 2008, 02:07:21 PM ----
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: Mr. Oho on July 17, 2008, 02:25:10 PM That's why they don't support linux ... they cannot develop a windows exe+dll like aim<something> , 'cause linux memory management is different and fully protected. And a remote code injection is impossible 'cause everytime client is loaded , base address is different ( randomly relocatable ) : one chance to do something like this is through a buffer/heap overflow , but if binary is compiled with -fstack-protector flag , the door results closed to their face Why? You allocate memory, copy scan routine, mprotect to executable, call, function mprotects normal code segmets to read, you scan for unique string x, mprotect code back to exec, return and recalculate all offsets relative to the one you found? What am i missing? Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: CFQ on July 17, 2008, 02:48:39 PM ----
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: Mr. Oho on July 17, 2008, 03:10:22 PM ...[Stupid double post.. not sure how it happend but im sorry]...
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: Mr. Oho on July 17, 2008, 03:17:44 PM What am i missing? How do u attach your code to client in memory execution ? Hah you got me! :P Well at least kind of since i mostly work from inside of the target application. LD_PRELOAD? a custom ui.so (no scanning needed since you get a syscall pointer to calculate from)? Manipulate /dev/mem or /proc stuff (ok im not that sure about that but seems possible to find and overwrite some unimportant function)? Or in a last resort just patch the executable but i agree that would be serve cheating ;) Oh yeah wrappers to any lib Quake loads on its own also sound temptimg :P Or how about abuse the debug api? Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: fufinha on July 18, 2008, 05:13:41 AM dunno if this may be of interest, alot of it maybe irrelevant since they use the pb system..
http://clanbase.ggl.com/news.php?nid=294100 http://game-violations.ggl.com/misc.php?action=faq Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: fufinha on July 18, 2008, 05:33:16 AM general config guidelines etc...
http://clanbase.ggl.com/rules.php?lid=6385 I also think if anyone suggests people cheat then they should always have a demo recorded, if this is too much effort then you could say they dont care.. or it only becomes an issue if they lose. Demos can be funny too http://youtube.com/watch?v=8UraH2-9B1o Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: CFQ on July 19, 2008, 08:31:50 AM ----
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: RAZ3R on July 19, 2008, 02:39:19 PM I take it you havn't used windows in the past decade CFQ?
/me goes off to dig up some linux article from 95 to prove how insecure it is. Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: kit89 on July 19, 2008, 04:49:53 PM I think the only way to cheat on Linux using the ioquake3, is to take the source code & implement the cheat code yourself.
If I can remeber there is no way in validating the actual engine executable itself from cheating. Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: CFQ on July 19, 2008, 04:55:43 PM ----
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: RAZ3R on July 19, 2008, 08:02:04 PM I recently learnt the retardedness of arguing on the internet though I havn't quite learnt the restaint to just not reply at all yet, so first and last response - CFQ: you are a moron. I could bring up valid arguments but it obviosuly wouldn't sink in so I see no point. Hope the time you spent digging up that quote was worth it.
-Fin- Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: CFQ on July 19, 2008, 08:31:04 PM ----
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: fufinha on July 20, 2008, 01:49:18 PM CFQ, what are the hostnames of your public servers?
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: CFQ on July 20, 2008, 01:55:25 PM ----
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: CFQ on July 25, 2008, 04:58:56 PM ----
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: Super Retardo on July 31, 2008, 12:10:49 AM while your concerns about cheating are very real and valid CFQ...your just flat out wrong on this issue
1. First, while most h4x for q3 engine games are windows based, using "linux only" is not the answer, it will only isolate/alienate a bunch of people from wanting to play OA. I would def be down for true comps if it was open to Windows gamers, but.... 2. Wanna know why RTCW:ET sucks so bad now? Because of the "LINUX" aimbots that PunkBuster just can't find. Will using just linux solve the problem? NO. Most of the ET aimbots/multihacks have their roots in Q3 somewhere btw.... 3. And if cheating is that big of a concern you want all sorts of stupid hard to do builds etc....why don't you just spend extra time...contact the ETPRO or ETACE mod teams for Enemy Territory and work with them on creating some anti-cheat measures. 4. I like others do not want the MAJOR PAIN IN THE ASS of having to install a new OS just to compete in a game that uses outdated tech. 1. DL Linux ISO's of whatever build you like 3-10hrs. 1a. If you haven't used linux before...decide which one is the best for you 1-2 hrs. 2. Burn the ISO's error free to CD's or DVD's 1-2hrs. 3. Repartition hard drive using 3rd party software 2-6hrs. 4. Install Linux 1-2hrs. 5. Install Correct Drivers 1-4 hrs. 6. Figure out WHAT THE FUCK you were just talking about with the diff builds/kernels etc for somebody who doesnt use linux all that often? GOD KNOWS HOW LONG!!!!!! Total Time to install Linux 9 hrs MINIMUM 26 hrs MAXIMUM Look...I'm glad Linux is on the scene, it keeps the universe in balance with the evil empire of Microsoft ....Tux is cool in my book.... BUT THE SNOBBERY FROM SOME OF US OPEN SOURCE USERS HAS GOT TO STOP!!!!!!! LASTLY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY[/size][/size] The best way to stop cheating is to GET ADMINS WHO ARE TRAINED TO SPOT IT! Admins that know about monitoring pings during fire fights... Who know how to use replays to spot wallhacks... Who know how to monitor stats the right way... BASIC STUFFF.... DO SOPHISTICATED STATISTICAL ANALYSIS ON YOUR LOGS... CONFIDENCE INTERVALS, STANDARD DEVIATIONS, ANALYSIS OF REGRESSION ERRORS (LINEAR AND OTHERS).... FIND THE HUMANIZED BOT DOUCHEBAGS!!!!!!!!!.... and lastly... WHEN IT COMES TO CHEATERS>>>KICK FIRST ASK QUESTIONS LATER Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: Gerbil on July 31, 2008, 12:51:13 AM 1. First, while most h4x for q3 engine games are windows based, using "linux only" is not the answer, it will only isolate/alienate a bunch of people from wanting to play OA. I would def be down for true comps if it was open to Windows gamers, but.... I completely agree. now maybe I am completely blind on the issue, but I have not yet seen any aimbots on oa yet :/ I have seen people with really good aim, but I have spec'd them, and their aim is for reals. usually when someone accuses another of aimbotting, its because the accuser quite frankly is a noob. Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: CFQ on July 31, 2008, 12:42:05 PM ----
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: kit89 on July 31, 2008, 01:15:59 PM Quote 1. DL Linux ISO's of whatever build you like 3-10hrs. 1a. If you haven't used linux before...decide which one is the best for you 1-2 hrs. 2. Burn the ISO's error free to CD's or DVD's 1-2hrs. 3. Repartition hard drive using 3rd party software 2-6hrs. 4. Install Linux 1-2hrs. 5. Install Correct Drivers 1-4 hrs. 6. Figure out WHAT THE FUCK you were just talking about with the diff builds/kernels etc for somebody who doesnt use linux all that often? GOD KNOWS HOW LONG!!!!!! Total Time to install Linux 9 hrs MINIMUM 26 hrs MAXIMUM Lol, you haven't used a modern distrobution recently eh? Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: Super Retardo on July 31, 2008, 05:51:31 PM repartition a 500gb HD with over 50% full of vital data and files?
ummm...dont care if its a modern distro...it's a pain in the ass... im not anti-linux here folks.... in fact...I AM VERY PRO OPEN SOURCE...but to mandate one operating system over another....thats just retarded...the game was specifically compiled for BOTH... if it weren't for open source OS's (Ubuntu, linux, whathave you), instead of the piece of shit Vista/XP at work...i'd probably be taking it up the ass with Windows ME right now...thank god.... and to your question Kit89 no i havnt used a modern distro...but thats because ive had business requirements for windows for so long...its a PAIN IN THE ASS TO WORK BETWEEN THE TWO... But forget that...LINUX has nothing to do with it. You could hand me everything, all the hacks, all the rom images whatever, needed to install OS X on my machine as well...I wouldn't do OSX... You could even tell me to install a clean copy of XP or Vista...I WOULDNT DO IT ...if youre talking about anti-cheat stuff in a linux build...shit put it in the windows one as well...or are you going to fragment the codebase and make another dev mistake like what happened between 0.7.0-0.7.6 and 0.7.7 where the community almost falls apart? ITS NOT ABOUT THE TECH>>>>>>>>GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS>>>>>> ITS ABOUT MAXIMIZING THE Number of USERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so like i said before...you will alienate a large portion of willing players by keeping your comps as linux open. PS: a great source for anti-cheat stuff are the ETACE and ETPRO communities.... They developed very good complete anticheat measures for RTCW:ET (A Q3 Engine Game!)--In fact the ETPRO mod doesn't even require punkbuster to be on for the anti-cheat to function.... And CFQ...you don't have to do what you're talking about it code.... Because of what you said about how bots work ...all you have to do is take your stats log file...dump it to a spreadsheet program, ...just start looking for trends and stuff...yeah i know it sounds like a witchhunt...but fuck it...game stats arent exactly covered under people's constitutional right to privacy.... since the bots have a set of programmed movements...accuracy levels will be soemwhat consistent...do consistency testing on simple numbers like that...youll find who your botters are... Title: A possible solution Post by: Super Retardo on July 31, 2008, 06:24:27 PM a linux/OA bootable DVD iso....
choose whatever build/distro of linux you see fit... load the drivers necessary for must users put OA as the only installed program on it...maybe teamspeak or vent depending on preference disable harddrives, flashdrives, floppies, other optical drives from being used inside it when the client connnects to the oa server put in some hashing/authentication mechanisms on it...make sure the image is real/unmodified i'd be down for dl'ing that...burning it and playing it.... obstacles to this idea: no configs--but hey if you cant remember or dont know how to tweak your cvars...youre prolly not at a compettitve level yet... no downloadble maps no scripts--but this would level the playing field and make it about the player...not their ability to script actions... *as far as restart necessary cvars...have linux make a ramdisk to store the config and then restart... Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: CFQ on August 01, 2008, 07:36:23 AM ----
Title: Re: Guidelines for OA official competition Post by: Super Retardo on August 04, 2008, 07:53:19 PM the encryption/hashing signature was just an idea...you dont need it...but...
if you build it, they will play..... :) |