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As promised here (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=1941.msg18072#msg18072), I was working on a new adaptation, this time is the QW/Q2 CTF classic McKinley Base (or McKinley Revival, as you wish :P) renamed McKinley Retribution. ATM there's no underwater exit, and no BFG, but it has Chaingun (in the middle) Grappling Hook and Nailgun. (In both bases)

It supports all CTF-based gametypes: CTF, 1FCTF, Harvester, Overload, CTF Elimination & DD.

Here (http://twctf.org/maps/ctf1) are some screenshots from the original one (McKinley Base) and here's (http://www2.q2ctf.co.uk/maps/q2ctf1.jpg) a screen of a flag base in Q2CTF1. The idea, like all "-ish" maps, is to make a similar structured map, but not an equal structured one.

Old changes:

McKinleyish2-a1 changes:
- Base layout changes, the item placement has been mostly kept:
  * Chaingun moved to the water.
  * Two direct & "easy" entrances to flag bases. A one-way exit. (which can be entrance by RJing) And an "indirect" entrance by going underwater.
  * CTF, Overload, DD: Item team Invulnerability+RA in the middle passage. This team is moved onto the water for 1FCTF & Harvester.
  * Flag base changed: No more a copy of McKinley's old efforts.

a1v2 changes:
- Bot & player clipping.
- Railgun spot clipping to avoid escape from it.
- Hinting ^^ Now shouldn't be possible, from any point of the flag bases, to make Q3/OA renderize the center area. (Or unnecesary things)
- Moved ammo to bases.
- Fixed a mistake in the .arena file. It would try to read am_mckinleyish instead of am_mckinleyish2.

a2 changes:
- Moved RL near the entrances.
- Added subacuatic chamber and Quad.

To do in the next version:
- Add arrows guiding to bases.
- Switching teleports going to sniper spot and water passage?
- Maybe bringing Grapple back as weapon to start? In 0.8.1 will be a pain in the arse, but considering all the changes Sago made to it on OAX it can work now.

To don't: (NOTTODO on this map)
- Remove water. I won't do that, no matter what the excuse is. Period.
- Remove Invulnerability. I'm against that "let's put TA stuff out of OA" campaign and nobody will convince me of the contrary. Period.

Screenshots:
(http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_1-small.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_1.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_2-small.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_2.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_3-small.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_3.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_4-small.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_4.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_5-small.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_5.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_6-small.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_6.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_7-small.jpg) (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/screenshots/am_mckinleyish2_7.jpg)

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u3u7GsDysw

Download (http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/am_mckinleyish2-a2.zip)

Thanks to onykage for the hosting. :) And all of those who has tested already the map.

Neon water pools! ^___^

Only looked at screenies and I like it as it looks simple but I should probably not say much since I didn't bother to download it

Looks colourful and nice.
I didn't download it yet but I will soon. As I can judge from your screenshots go for more details please. :)

Details are my weakest point. -.-
All of my maps are lacking of them. :/

Okay, I downloaded it.

Honestly the things that I didn't like were how the water looked flashy on the surface when underwater, not being able to climb out of the water, and the grappling hook. Grappling hook seems useless.

Otherwise thumbs up but like how it has been mentioned, detail wouldn't hurt. Adding a trim around the place could be a start, I would think.

It seems well playable above fluid level, but I really don't like the disability to leave the water the intuitive way.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/tags/ammckinleyish/

1 bug: http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/2882904975/

I gave it a run through and as I said your lighting is great. And I love McKinley.

The water is easy to fix by raising it's surface a bit so everybody is able to climb out (bots will love you for that) and the nasty flickering will disappear. :)

Adding the grapplinghook reminds me of Q2 so much and the feelings about McKinley return. :)
Don't place the grapplinghook in the map as a picup but give it to every player when they spawn if you really want to include it. Your map should play fine without.

So there is my next point:
I'll attach a screenshot that shows your flag rooms which are way too small compared to the Q2 version. I miss all those crates and huge storage racks were players were able to climb up. I guess the original flag rooms were about 4 - 5 times bigger than yours. Don't get me wrong. If you want to keep it small then go for it. I just wish that all the racks are easier to access. For me the flag rooms are disappointing as they don't offer much tactics / obstacles / covers. I know you don't have much space left to expand those rooms but I think the rises that lead to the rooms are too steep. If you lower them you'll get more space to have bigger flag rooms. :P

I checked your r_speeds and they hit 7k without any details in your map. You can do an improving hinting for VIS before your final release but think about the light sources you used on your walls. There's quiet a lot of them and they have lots of faces. I'm not sure if they are the main reason why you are already at 7k.

If you allow here's a suggestion: remove 75% of them and replace the remaining with better models / brushes (and fancy textures). I know OA lacks of good mapmodels but there will be more soon. I'm working on a huge CTF map with kick52 and we need tons of nice stuff and I hope there will be some new sconce.
Have some kind of alcoves, slots, lips or other trim to decorate your lights. There are so many q3map2 parameters to play with. ;)

Don't take me too serious. I hope to help. These are just my first thoughts.

Okay, I think all my thoughts have already been mentioned, but I'll give you a run-through anyway. First, I hate da grappeling hook. While I may have requested it on occasion, I really don't care for it. I don't really see how it's useful in this level, but anyway... I agree about the water (which I suppose the grappling hook could help with, but), it's basically like shooting fish in a barrel. Which is entertaining for a little while, but it quickly looses appeal. I did like the bases and the sniper spots overlooking the central chamber, though. Also, somehow Grunt 9the orange s_mrine) keeps jumping out that sniper window... I kinda wonder how...

So, at the end of the day, this map shows lots of promise, but it needs some refinement.

-Timedude

I'll have a look at it and see what i can do about the detail brushes =)

I'll upload tonight a new version of this map.

New version of the map, with a direct link. I couldn't attach it for its size. (>1MB)

Updated download link, thanks to onykage for it. ^^

Any comments for it? :P

Unless I have downloaded the wrong map I believe it still isn't possible to leave the water intuitively.

Version in this topic is the most newest. onykage is working on detail in this map. I should learn from him. :/

AFAIK in both originals (yes, I know I said "it shouldn't be like the original" but...) you can't leave the water in the normal form.

Imo, would be better if you could get out of the water normally, newbs will get lost and drown... took me a while to figure out how to get out.

Ok... by popular request I'll add that. -.-

Well, I've uploaded the map. Download link and screens, as usual, in the first post. I've raised the water by popular request. :P

Main issues now are: bots getting stuck in some places while going for the flag, and only use water way instead of both ways, water and normal, despite all the clipping and "item_botroam"ing I put. -.- (item_botroams aren't no more now) By now, these are the changes:

- Raised water, so it's now possible to leave water the intuitive way.
- Changed water lighting. (That old color was unnatural, but I think this new color is more unnatural.) :P
- Added some light to railgun spots.

To do:
- Where should I put some detail? :P
- Make bots go for the enemy flag and don't get stuck or in endless loops in the way. -.-
- I want players spawn with Grappling hook, but I can't make it possible. What am I doing wrong?

Regarding the getting out of water problem, which still exits, well I've looked at the Q3 code and I'm quite sure the problem is NOT the height of the water (it could be as low as 21units below the nearby surface, or as high as the surface).

The problem is the thickness of the walkways.  16 units high is not enough.  Make them 24 or 32 units and I think it will work properly then.

[more comments on the map soon...]

Giving items on spawn is done easy:
Use target_give entity for that. I was fond of it in oa_koth1 and ctf_compromise.

The structure has to look like this: playerspawns --> target_give --> grappling hook

I'm doing a testrun and tell you what I think about it later.

That's what I exactly have done, but it didn't work at all. :/

New version, hpe this is the ante-final one. :P You know where to find it. ^^ (First post for those who don't know :P)

That map weighs less and less. :D

Changes:
- Aesthethic changes: redone flares, improved level geometry, added bases to objectives, added lighting to sniper spots.
- Clipping retouched, and also I've added some clusterportals. :P
- Added grappling hook to info_player_start and team_CTF_<team>player/spawns. Now players will spawn with Gauntlet, Machinegun and Grapple. Q2 Style. ^^

I like the map :)
For the water problem - if you "jump out of" the water, then there is no problem. I've been playing the old and the current versions. In the old one bots used the water to get the flag, and full set of nightmare bots did some flag hits (and some sinking too). Now they use the land path and for 30min they couldn't do any flag hit (every bot goes for the flag). There was blodshed in the middle (sometimes bots circle around by the exit to main battle field), and sneaking through water channel works only if they all defend the base (so enemy bots go far from their base :)) So the map seems to be easy to defend, and very hard to attack.

As an alternative map there could be a CTF with only watery paths to the enemy base with few coridors with some water and air. And the base-water exits must be uncampable like in this map ;)

Bot navigating was a very awful challenge for me. :/ I tried to botclip lots of places, and some clusterportals there, without being able to success. :/

I like your attempt Armageddon_Man but how about this:

People tend to hate water in CTF maps as they are used to do strafejumping as you always encounter in hydronex. What's about setting mckinleyish into the future maybe 20 years after the original one. Everything is abandoned, the water basin is dry, empty, and maybe a waste dump or a forgotten storage depot with lots of crates in there? A rugged and decayed place?
For me your current solution is still too narrow and small. Especially the bases are no fun during battles. I'm glad you added a little walkway to the RL but it's still not big enough.

Uploading new version... DONT DOWNLOAD NOTHING UNTIL I SAY!!!

- Water passage to chaingun & ammo has been resized, now is bigger.
- Item placement changes: Health 50 in bases replaced by Health 25, added health and armor shards to middle area, switched Chaingun with Body armor, added 2x50 Health to Chaingun room, and added Chaingun ammo at the bottom.

Remember that this map has the 4 team items and an Invulnerability, so you can play it in Missionpack. :P

P.S. Water won't be off this map, and you have Grapple to get out of it and advance.

Uploaded map, you can download it from the link at the first post.
Caca should be uploading this version soon.

Screenshots are uploading now.

OA_DM7 or another one has jumpers in the water corridor (and foggy water?). Maybe you could add this to the pools by the bases? It would increase usability of those corridors for bots, and make it harder to camp at the corridor exit :)

I think this map could look a lot better with just some different textures, some ideas:

(1) use metal for the posts (supports) in the flag rooms, e.g. e7/e7brnmetal or base_trim/dark_tin2

(2) have a special floor in the flag rooms, e.g. e7/e7sbrickfloorbig

(3) the thin walkways in the flag rooms could be made out of wood, e.g. e7/e7panelwood

(4) instead of the lower ramps (four of them coming from the quad room), have steps which use a wood or metal texture.

I actually made some changes to the map, but I'll wait until I've had enough feedback.

Just to keep you noticed:

- Replaced brick stairs in bases which goes to Nailgun spot and Rocket Launcher walkway with 2 jumppads which goes from the lower floor to their respective area.
- Added ammo
- Enlarged water entrance.
- Ceiling is now a little bit higher.
- Deleted Railgun ammo and Armor shards from sniper spots, and put instead of normal RG a 5-shot 30sec-respawn Railgun.
- Retexturizing map and adding more detail.

I'm starting to think that this map should be remade entirely from scratch...

I've posted these two notes in the first post, but I'll post again here to make everybody knows about it. :)

McKinleyish is back... I was starting on another version, but I thought it was better to fix the original one instead of creating another from scratch. I'll be resizing the map in another moment. I suggest you to test it with the newest OAX(b41) You'd like to enable Grapple too. :D

Changes:
- Players won't start with grapple anymore.
- Replaced water entrance by a chamber which has a teleporter on it. This chamber has Guard & Shotgun.
- Fixed lighting. Now it won't look as a shiny level anymore.
- Redistributed ammo.
- Raised ceiling on bases.
- Replaced improvised stairs @ bases with jumppads which goes from the floor onto the respective sections.
- Added another ramp to the flag.
- Added arrow & weaponspot signals, from the replacements I've done.

To do:
- Add detail
- Increase size (1.5x maybe?)

It has Invulnerability, so I've made a simple icon, since there's one on the map and there's no model for it. :/ Download for it is in the first post too.

I am glad you changed/redid a lot. Still the bases and the big central room are too small. Especially the bases are tiny and I am missing crates and features to battle between. Your texture setting does not fit it all too well remembering the original being industrial themed. So if you are going with this ancient temple textures you should have it look like more ruined and temple like (you improved regarding to this with your new flames/light sources). An altar of pure evil would be kool. (I'm including one in my current tourney map. :P)

Please rethink lighting / compile options in general. It is looking bright and flat.

While I'm preparing the map to be uploaded, there you have the screenshots and changelist. Maybe this map's layout doesn't look like McKinley's previous incarnations, given it's status of classic (http://archive.gamespy.com/top10/january01/ctfmaps/).

Maybe I should call this map am_mcknightley instead. :D

Map uploaded. ^^

Before you say something, yes, there's too much ammo in the Ammo Regen corridors, and I'm not happy with this too. I'll be moving some ammo to the flag bases or the center area, or the sniper spot... I'll see later.

I was thinking on bringing back the Grapple. In 0.8.1 it couldn't work, but due to some areas and the intense changes sago made to it, it should work now. There's also a model for it, made by Snickersnack & Noob_Sauce, which (unfortunately) didn't make into OA due to licensing issues. :(

Impressive new release. Why do you want to add a grapple here? No need for that. Besides: How do you think new players should get the nailgun when not able to do strafe/rocket jumps? Do not rely on grapple. That would create an annoying gameplay.

new bases are 1000% better now. I have to confess I did not like the former ones a single bit...

Minor issues:

• very repetitive/boring texturing
• always samesize/too narrow corridors (compared to the Q2 version)
• weapons only placed near bases. What if I need to hunt the enemy flag carrier after respawn? I wont get any weapon before I enter foes base.
• mission pack powerups (invulnerability) available in baseoa
• shortest way is through railgun teleporter, jumping through the window. Thats too fast compared to the normal way.

How do you do the following: Having RA and Invulnerability in same spawning place without having them spawn together?

Well, there's not too much to choose for that kind of theme anyways. At least in acc_dm5 (I haven't looked at other packages)

The corridors are that way for the sake of vis. If I'd made them 2X their actual size they would be huge. Maybe I should lower the detail's size?

That's a good point. Maybe moving some of the base' weapons to the area?

What's the problem with it? Invulnerability (and Kamikaze) in 0.8.1 isn't available, but in the latest OAX version it's enabled.

Yep, another one. I'll put that item to the list.

Teaming up them: you select both, go to entities, and in Team Name put a name for both of them. It's even in the description.

I've seized a mistake I've made to do some extra changes to the map.

- Bot & player clipping.
- Railgun spot clipping to avoid escape from it.
- Hinting ^^ Now shouldn't be possible, from any point of the flag bases, to make Q3/OA renderize the center area. (Or unnecesary things)
- Moved ammo to bases.
- Fixed a mistake in the .arena file. It would try to read am_mckinleyish instead of am_mckinleyish2.

Final (by now) version of this map.

- Moved RL near to the entrance.
- Added subacuatic chamber and Quad.