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OpenArena Contributions => Development => Topic started by: Dj. Dr. Dewey on January 06, 2007, 10:04:37 am



Title: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: Dj. Dr. Dewey on January 06, 2007, 10:04:37 am
hello everyone!

I was browsing around google and found this site... great job! who knew.. an open-source game.... finally lol! i played with it for a little while and it looks awesome i must say! now, i do see a couple other topics on the subject of music, but this is something totally different! I run an internet radio station to promote indie/unsigned bands from around the world, and basiccly we pretty much stream only in games (right now it's only counter-strike, but im looking for other games too besides hl based games) we have been running more or less for about 2 years now, and right now were currently "down" so we can totally rebuild the station and what we do and how we do it from the ground up! this is actually something that i had in mind to start out with: a small game that we could at least "test the waters" with... this would absolutely perfect because its open-source and all! we could also prob do some sort of advertising thing on the station for this game and whatnot, as we have done that with various cs clans in the past, worked out very well too! Now, i was wondering if someone out there is willing to help us out (maybe the devlopers themselves?) to somehow find a way to be able to stream the station in the game itself. right now we are using the soutcast system with mp3, but if it would be easier, we can put up a fairly decently sized icecast server and run the ogg format.  now, untill we get everything back up and running, I'm running a "test station" called "techno power radio". as the name suggests, its a techno/trance/D&B/etc. station, but its mostly so we just have stuff to play and test various things were working on! if you want to go and check out the website, it's  www.technopowerradio.com (http://www.technopowerradio.com), and our home site is at www.neomrsir.com (http://www.neomrsir.com) that's usually were you will find me hanging around for the most part!

Note: all music we play is either aquired by either contacting the artists personally, or downloaded from sites such as www.garageband.com, where all music is under the "creative commons licence" (its kinda like what GPL is for software)

Well i would like to thank you all for reading this, and i hope to hear your comments and suggestions, and some ideas as to how to make this work in this particular game!

Sincerly,
-Dj. Dr. Dewey
Head D.J. and co-founder, Neo Mr. Sir Project,
www.neomrsir.net


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: fromhell on January 06, 2007, 02:12:25 pm
the "creative commons licence" (its kinda like what GPL is for software)


Unfortunately, that's where the line has drawn. CC is not GPL compatible.


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: Dj. Dr. Dewey on January 06, 2007, 04:44:20 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, unless you gain a commercial or private profit off of this program (which you shouldn't because the GPL states that you may distribute and charge only what it costs you + you may charge for a warrenty), then the CC may be compatible with GPL. I myself am not sure wether the money gained off of a warrenty is included in the term "commercial or private profit". The radio doesn't gain or lose anything, since we run our station privatly which means we do not gain anything in running this radio station.


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: fromhell on January 06, 2007, 04:54:20 pm
It's not compatible in any way.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html#NonFreeSoftwareLicense


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: Dj. Dr. Dewey on January 06, 2007, 09:13:42 pm
"Even without looking at the link I understand what was in it.  We use open source software regularly, and we understand the compatibilities because we too have tried to make open source software before.  Now instead of reading what I have already viewed before, and instead of having you regurgitate what the licence says, could you please explain to me why this would not be compatible with GPL.  I feel there has been a misunderstanding here and I would like to clarify.  If I see what you say is understanding to my offer and your denying my request I will apologize for the request I asked of you"


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: dmn_clown on January 06, 2007, 09:41:52 pm
Quote
unless you gain a commercial or private profit off of this program (which you shouldn't because the GPL states that you may distribute and charge only what it costs you + you may charge for a warrenty)

that is a misleading statement on the GPLv2

Quote
You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, and you may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange for a fee.

There is no "Only" within that line which places the interpretation in a different light. 

As far as I am concerned this subject has been beaten to death, if you don't realize that even the CC BY SA license (Which forces you to give attribution and removes the ability to charge) is incompatible with the GPLv2 when confronted with the evidence from the horse's mouth (The link from GNU) then no amount of reasoned discourse will explain it.

Why can't you have your artists dual license their works under the GPLv2 if you want to gain them the exposure that this project will provide them?  You only need to define what the source of the music is and provide it. :)


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: Brian on January 06, 2007, 09:45:35 pm
Hi I'm Brian and I work with the internet radio. Mostly all we are wondering FIRST if you would be interested in ALLOWING said internet radio to be able to be listened to while inside a server? Just forget about the legal matters for a second.


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: Keet on January 06, 2007, 09:57:01 pm
Hi I'm Brian and I work with the internet radio. Mostly all we are wondering FIRST if you would be interested in ALLOWING said internet radio to be able to be listened to while inside a server? Just forget about the legal matters for a second.

I don't know much about legal stuff, but I do happen to know one thing...it's not ok to forget the legal matters, as stated in a previous topic before...if you do, it's possible to get into a bit of trouble. It's best to be safe and deal with the legal matters before making any actions. At least that's what I think. It's ultimately the decision of fromhell, since he's the one heading this project, and if I knew well, he's pretty picky about the content he puts into this project, and if it isn't compatible, it won't go in. The only two things that could possible happen are that the content is rejected, or that the content should be made compatible for this project.


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: fromhell on January 06, 2007, 10:01:07 pm
Hi I'm Brian and I work with the internet radio. Mostly all we are wondering FIRST if you would be interested in ALLOWING said internet radio to be able to be listened to while inside a server? Just forget about the legal matters for a second.

You mean leaving an audio player running in the background opening a stream doesn't work?


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: Brian on January 06, 2007, 10:40:30 pm
Hi I'm Brian and I work with the internet radio. Mostly all we are wondering FIRST if you would be interested in ALLOWING said internet radio to be able to be listened to while inside a server? Just forget about the legal matters for a second.

You mean leaving an audio player running in the background opening a stream doesn't work?

It wouldn't work because your game is fullscreen and cannot currently run in a window. That would decrease the gaming expierence to have your game minimize every time you get on a server or something like that.

Best case scenario is that we make a media player just for the game so that it doesn't have the player connecting to microsoft, macintosh, winamp, while connecting to a stream, and also the user would have complete controls to the radio without leaving the game.

To the legal side of matters, Why can we not stream our radio in the server, game, along side in a different window, when we can play it legally anywhere on the internet?  There may be some catch, I see your side to the arguement.

So, to end this political conversation, I'm just going to email GNU about it.


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: fromhell on January 06, 2007, 10:42:17 pm
Hi I'm Brian and I work with the internet radio. Mostly all we are wondering FIRST if you would be interested in ALLOWING said internet radio to be able to be listened to while inside a server? Just forget about the legal matters for a second.

You mean leaving an audio player running in the background opening a stream doesn't work?

It wouldn't work because your game is fullscreen and cannot currently run in a window.

Alt+Enter or Settings>System>Fullscreen:Off? If that doesn't work, perhaps your sound card is a very old single-buffer card (Sound Blaster 16 and earlier)

Also the engine does not support internet radio streaming with itself (why would an fps engine need that? What engines out there currently support this).

And that dream media player is already made (http://videolan.org). If you want remote control of the player, you could probably get one of those nifty keyboards that have silly "internet keys" at the top or so and try to get them to work with the player (I never bothered with those keys though...)

Media player control isn't a goal of the project. Q3A-compatible GPL v2 licensed content is the goal.


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: Keet on January 06, 2007, 10:43:49 pm
Yeah...alt-enter always works. Works for most FPS's nowadays...


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: Dj. Dr. Dewey on January 06, 2007, 10:57:47 pm
ok so first off, i did look into the videolan thing recently (past few weeks). that, however, is not what im looking to do. i am looking to get a "player" written and embeded into the game itself. I'm not talking about any "external apps" (media players, winamp, zinf, etc.) im talking about putting a player that is PART of the actual game. be it somewhere in the HUD, or some menu somewhere. that is all I'm asking to do. nothing more, or less. 


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: fromhell on January 06, 2007, 11:09:41 pm
i am looking to get a "player" written and embeded into the game itself. I'm not talking about any "external apps" (media players, winamp, zinf, etc.) im talking about putting a player that is PART of the actual game. be it somewhere in the HUD, or some menu somewhere. that is all I'm asking to do. nothing more, or less. 

I've already said before, it can't happen. Mainly because of the sound system and also we don't add any engine features. If you want this, bug ioquake3, not us.


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: Dj. Dr. Dewey on January 06, 2007, 11:32:48 pm
ok well i guess that's that. well thank you for your time anyway!


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: Ayavaron on January 07, 2007, 12:05:38 am
I'm sure there's a ton of great public domain music you could use if you looked on Jamendo.com Not all of the music is public domain. You'd have to check on a per-album basis but I'm sure there's plenty of usable stuff there. You could also probably talk with the individual artists  about releasing some of their works under a compatible license. One such artist I'd recommend contacting would be NeXuS. (http://www.jamendo.com/en/?p=search&search_categ=xartist&search_xartist_id=5717) I really enjoy his techno music.

You might also want to reconsider the pure GPL license thing. Otherwise, you could get around it by releasing a separate downloadable music pack compatible with Open Arena. (It'd be in its own PK3 and all of that, I assume.) That would be released under its own license.

I know you guys already push the GPL a little bit with MD3 models. MD3s are not a preferred format for editing because they don't contain anything like skeletal data. Even if you aren't purely GPL, you can still do copyleft and be within the ideals of the Free Software Foundation.

At least that's what I, the lurker who only occasionally says anything, thinks.


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: fromhell on January 07, 2007, 12:14:41 am
You might also want to reconsider the pure GPL license thing. Otherwise, you could get around it by releasing a separate downloadable music pack compatible with Open Arena. (It'd be in its own PK3 and all of that, I assume.) That would be released under its own license.

Being license picky does have its advantages, like no legal risks whatsoever and also the nice amount of availability - mirroring without legal distribution problems, being in debian repositories, etc. This is good for the long run.

I know you guys already push the GPL a little bit with MD3 models. MD3s are not a preferred format for editing because they don't contain anything like skeletal data. Even if you aren't purely GPL, you can still do copyleft and be within the ideals of the Free Software Foundation.

There are .blend source files for our md3s in the SVN.


Title: Re: A new way of doing in-game music
Post by: Ferk on January 07, 2007, 10:00:01 am
Well.. since the music broadcasted in the radio station would not be part of the game content and the radio station selected could be costumizable I dont think that the addition of a radio player would mess the license as long as the player is GPL. There are other GPL players that play perfectly non GPL content without any legal issue.

I think it might be a good feature, but it should be asked to the ioquake3 developers, not OpenArena ones.
And still it may not be so nice when the internet connection is not that good

However, the XSPF format (http://www.xspf.org/) may be more apropiate than the PLS, as it is open and extensible, based on XML