|
Title: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: cheb on March 01, 2010, 04:00:22 PM While I like the unlag hitscan greatly and wouldn't want it to be removed ever, it sent the fine-tuned weapons balance straight to Hell.
The Lightning Gun is overpowering. It practically dominates short- and mid-range. The problem, as I see it, lies in its very high "rate of fire" which allows for very easy zeroing in onto your opponents using the hit sound. With the basic 100-cell charge you could wipe out three guys before they could as much as blink. With the old lightning gun behavior its power and large ammo supply were intended to compensate for the high difficulty of aiming with it. Could there be done something to compensate for this weapon's power making it less a devastator second only to BFG? The ways I could think of are: 1. Decrease damage. The way of the least resistance, but it's dull. 2. Decrease the ammo supply to, say, 60 or even 40 - but then it becomes too much like the chaingun. 3. Make its range variable, dependent on the aiming angular velocity: the faster you turn around, the shorter the reach. With sharp instantaneous decrease and slow increase. 4. The initial damage per second is negligible but increases as long as you keep the lightning shaft on target. 5. The same as 3 but even more sensitive to turning speed and doesn't lose range while you keep hitting someone. Then, once you mis-aimed even a tiny bit - oops! and the opponent is suddenly out of range and you are on their mercy. Any better ideas? Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: chaoticsoldier on March 02, 2010, 12:31:25 AM I'm not sure changes such as those are possible to implement. See out Not To Do list: DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/NOTTODO](DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/NOTTODO (http://([b)
As for a better idea? There probably isn't one. Electrocute the enemy before he electrocutes you? :) Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: cheb on March 02, 2010, 01:41:09 AM Quote Change the gameplay. (This includes the physics, weapons, and anything that's the default gameplay) That's stuff for a mod, not for the original gameplay. The problem here is that gameplay is already changed. The Lightning Gun algorithms were incompatible with unlag hitscan, so its behavior changed dramatically, from the "get really creative and maybe you could hit something" to "aim precisely and he's dead".All other hitscan weapons are balanced by something. Railgun and shotgun by their slow recharge, machinegun by its low damage, chaingun by its high scatter. The current lightning gun isn't. It simply has no flaws, making it too perfect a weapon. It's like a death ray: no scatter, no recharge pause, no need to predict your opponent's movement, nothing. Who the heck needs a weapon that outperforms both rocket launcher and railgun? It isn't even noob friendly because noobs die like flies even against another noob armed with it. So I'm not trying to suggest a change in the game mechanics. I'm trying to think of a way to bring the gameplay back to the old good times! (but with unlag hitscan on). Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: cosmo on March 02, 2010, 02:22:04 AM Here is a question for you:
I mostly played in former Q3A times on LAN. And LAN play is explicit supported by Q3A (it's physics and so it is OA) if not meant to be played on. You do not have these effects of lag when playing on LAN. Where is the deal? 1. Ask your server admin to turn off unlagged behaviour. 2. Play more on SinglePlayer/LAN to get used Lighting Gun and how it was meant to be. 3. Convince us to break the 'Not altering gameplay' rule and implement QL behaviour. (QL is optimized for internetplay) 4. Create a mod with QL physics. Maybe it becomes quiet popular and will be shipped with vanilla OA. ;) Then you will come across the fact that everybody with a lower ping will be able to do more damage with it. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: kernel panic on March 02, 2010, 03:06:36 AM Well, I don't know what game you have been playing, but everybody with a good aim knows since the beginning of times that light gun is a hell of a weapon. Perhaps you were using the default value for cg_trueLightning' all along? As for the disadvantages of this weapon, its low range and quick discharge rate are the obvious ones.
Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: cosmo on March 02, 2010, 03:19:48 AM Sure. I know it's a hell of a weapon. I did not doubt it at all. It was like that since the beginning regardless of cg_trueLightning.
A Rocketlauncher or Railgun can be hellish too if in the right hands. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: kernel panic on March 02, 2010, 03:58:43 AM But of course! I was addressing Cheb :P
Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: Falkland on March 02, 2010, 08:45:30 AM There should be a server side cvar to be set to allow restoring the 50msec delay of the unlagged lightning gun in the version 0.8.5 to make the weapon - apparently - less powerfull : http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=3095.msg25636;topicseen#msg25636
In QL they first made LG damage at range ( 5 for high - max distance is the same than Q3 and OA : 768 units - , 6 for mid , 7 for low range ) , then they switched to a fixed value of 7 which brings back a bit of fairness , because 8 hp per bolt was a reasonable value when Q3 in multiplayer was played in the 56k and Voodoo GFX era. CPMA didn't touch the LG damage in CPM mode while it was increased in CNQ3 mode ( 10 hp per bolt ) , but the use of the LG is a bit different in CPMA , mostly used in combo with RL or RG because of faster gameplay or to finish enemy with low health at mid or max range while constantly aiming with LG means quite always beeing fragged. BTW CPMA doesn't have unlagged but a ping/max packets adaptative netcode system. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: cheb on March 02, 2010, 03:32:35 PM Quote Perhaps you were using the default value for cg_trueLightning' all along? Eh? What's cg_trueLightning...? Another of these console mumbo-jumbo?I greatly respect the guys who made the original engine but they were real monsters who came from the age of command prompt and non-M$ operating systems. A good interface should never include anything like the console trying to make your brain explode from learning quantilion of arcane functions and variables. The stuff should have had a decent GUI (even if dozens pages long). As it is, I have my head full of Pascal, php, Javascript as well as a few more obscure scripting languages with all their quirks. Please, please don't make this web-programmer-for-life learn another one! My head hurts as it is :(... Quote 4. Create a mod with QL physics. Maybe it becomes quiet popular and will be shipped with vanilla OA. I'm a bit unfamilirar with C. Not up to par for the task.The Quake2 renderer mod I once made was entirely possible thanks to the Quake II to Delphi Conversion project. Quote There should be a server side cvar to be set to allow restoring the 50msec delay of the unlagged lightning gun in the version 0.8.5 Thank goodness! :) Then all we have to do is wait for a server with this feature enabled to crop up :) Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: Falkland on March 02, 2010, 07:40:45 PM Quote There should be a server side cvar to be set to allow restoring the 50msec delay of the unlagged lightning gun in the version 0.8.5 Thank goodness! :) Thank to sago work. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: CorteX on March 03, 2010, 05:48:32 PM Cheb I think the only thing going on here is that you aren't playing with /cl_truelightning 1.
I'd say give it a try, it might feel less unfair after all ;) Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: RMF on March 04, 2010, 01:37:30 AM The Lightning Gun is overpowering. It practically dominates short- and mid-range. The problem, as I see it, lies in its very high "rate of fire" which allows for very easy zeroing in onto your opponents using the hit sound. With the basic 100-cell charge you could wipe out three guys before they could as much as blink. 3 players? Not sure what newb server that must be, but if you get 2 you've done nicely :PAlso the enemy can get a lg too, so that basicly equals it. Especially CTF maps where almost all weapons are double because it has to be symmetrical. Why bfg is overpowered then? Well if there were maps where you could just grab it, imo no real problem exists. Many maps don't have the gun at all (partially cuz of the reason that it doesn't fit on the gameplay of all maps), and on some you have to get there some special way so almost noone does and when someone does he blows everyone dead (ctf4ish). Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: ikao on March 04, 2010, 05:22:05 AM It is sad that nobody likes the BFG. I can't see how it breaks gameplay. The green energy bullets are slow and easy to see coming and it has recoil. It's not like it only has strong points. I would like to see more maps including BFG.
LG is actually scary. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: Bane on March 04, 2010, 06:53:00 AM The reason no one likes the BFG and it is not on more maps is because it would make it next to impossible to get the enemy flag if it was because just thing about it instead of rocket spam and plasma gun spam you would have BFG spam. Also the one CTF it is on I thank god that the maker of the map at least made it hard to get to but when someone does get it that map becomes hard as hell because it is either the railer that gets you or the guy spamming the BFG.
Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: ikao on March 04, 2010, 08:18:25 AM The reason no one likes the BFG and it is not on more maps is because it would make it next to impossible to get the enemy flag if it was because just thing about it instead of rocket spam and plasma gun spam you would have BFG spam. Also the one CTF it is on I thank god that the maker of the map at least made it hard to get to but when someone does get it that map becomes hard as hell because it is either the railer that gets you or the guy spamming the BFG. Well, I was not suggesting filling the map with ammunition. You can stop the enemy once by spamming but then you have no BFG anymore. If they are hitting you with aimed shots, then you can't really blame the BFG. The railgun in ctf4ish can do the flag bearer in instantly in one shot most of the time(either push or kill) and there is virtually no place to hide. Even the shotgun that isn't normally very useful, can be used to kill people instantly at a distance with no chance of correction in that map. The BFG, rockets and plasma gun at least come with a warning. It is devastating but there is only one for both teams and not much ammunition. And as you said it is reasonably hard to get. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: Neon_Knight on March 04, 2010, 08:19:14 AM Everything depends on the map.
Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: cosmo on March 04, 2010, 08:27:32 AM New oa_koth2 supports BFG. Gameplay is not so differnt: The one who grabs it will likely be on a killing spree as long as he manages to grab more ammo and nobody is able to stop him with rail or chaingun.
Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: Falkland on March 04, 2010, 08:58:21 AM Everything depends on the map. What do you mean ? Because I can think only to the BFG placement or the structure of the map and anyway the BFG (*) is extremely unbalanced not directly in damage which is the same of the RL ( 100 hp direct , 1-99 splash damage , splash radius 120 ) but in reload time ( 200msec ) and in projectile speed . This weapon still exists also in CPMA but with a lower damage , a lower projectile speed and last but not least with a higher reload time of which I didn't find any reference yet , but it seems higher than one second to me (*) For reference look at this page (http://ucguides.savagehelp.com/Quake3/items_weapon.html) Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: HITMAN on March 04, 2010, 10:45:00 AM I agree with Cheb. I've been playing this game for years now and ever since the beginning, I always had issues with LG. Yes, it is a powerful weapon but some players are able to drain your HP so quickly you dont even have a time to shoot back. There is a hardly any drawbacks with this weapon. The weapon is good for all ranges, tremendous power, easy to aim, quick reload time, large amount of ammo can be collected (especially on servers with quick item respawns). Something needs to be done. I'm actually surprised there aren't any All LG servers.
I recommend lowering the ammo as well and make the weapon harder to get. People abuse this weapon heavily, especially campers. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: MIOW on March 04, 2010, 11:35:40 AM LG was overpowered in previous versions, haven't checked nerfed LG from 0.8.5 yet. This is the reason why I stopped playing on US servers - unlagged LG with high ping is even more powerful and people whine about it a lot.
Actually MG and RG are also not ok. Just notice how easily MG owns RL. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: Bane on March 04, 2010, 12:02:39 PM About the BFG I would mine having it on more maps but only if it was chanced in a drastic way. I was thinking that it should be more like the original DOOM BFG which fired slower and had a slow reload time. To me this seemed to be the fairest form of this weapon and I don’t know why it was changed into the monster weapon it is currently.
Also since there seems to be some debate about weapons power maybe we should start a thread and talk about how we can balance them out more? Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: CorteX on March 05, 2010, 02:31:05 PM Change the LG's properties, and players like me are likely to pass playing servers with these settings.
LG isn't overpowered. It's something you want to have as a weapon, but the rocketlauncher should still be able to take out an LG'er: IF THE MAPS WERE DESIGNED TO THIS (well-designed). In my opinion: Major problem in OA that arises this LG-being-overpowered-stuff is, mainly in the common CTF maps, the lack of verticality. Take oasago. Credits to the map ofcourse, hey I come in peace. But.. rocket always loses to LG no matter how skilled the rocketeer is, because there just isn't a way to out-damage-per-second an LG'er on mid-far range on leveled ground. So, Oasago = LG/Rail dominated. Now, try some quake 3 ctf maps and see the difference. I don't know... Lots of times the rocket launcher actually does something. And, in FFA, the rocket can be great when you have the ping. OA maps are so narrow. Just watch not to suicide, lol. Anyway, about the BFG, it's a big fucking gun. I like it the way it is, no BFG in OA maps since it would be to easy to pick it up because of the smallness of the maps. Peace. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: pulchr on March 05, 2010, 02:34:33 PM the bfg can be fun, but only for ffa games.
having the bfg in team oriented modes is a really bad idea (imo). Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: MIOW on March 09, 2010, 05:11:09 PM It's a good point about maps design, honestly I no longer like oasago2. Even if it's partially good it's played so often that I can't stand it.
And yet unlagged LG is even more powerful than CPMA VQ3 one with xerp. Q3CTF leagues actually didn't switch to CPMA from OSP because weapons, especially LG, became too powerful with good netcode making it too easy to defend. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: Falkland on March 15, 2010, 06:22:44 AM And yet unlagged LG is even more powerful than CPMA VQ3 one with xerp. Q3CTF leagues actually didn't switch to CPMA from OSP because weapons, especially LG, became too powerful with good netcode making it too easy to defend. Maybe it's not only a netcode problem : probably it's also related with the client prediction code. I've noticed that with CPMA I can dis-engage myself while under LG attack in most of the situations : unlagged LG is indeed like a magnet sometimes and often I can't dis-engage so easily. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: sago007 on March 15, 2010, 12:12:07 PM Originally the game was balanced with lag and therefore unlagged did break the lightning gun considerably.
In 0.8.5 this is circumvented by introducing a 50 ms to the weapon but this is not displayed, so it will look like the weapon is still firing straight. After some more thought I think that the introduced lag perhaps should be varying over time between 0-50 ms to best simulate the build-in lag from the original game. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: RMF on March 15, 2010, 01:12:26 PM Maybe setting it to the players' ping would simulate best? :)
Though best simulation isn't always best gameplay ofcourse. Title: Re: Lightning gun and unlag hitscan Post by: Falkland on March 17, 2010, 09:43:50 AM After some more thought I think that the introduced lag perhaps should be varying over time between 0-50 ms to best simulate the build-in lag from the original game. Yes , I think that an adaptative value ( ping and/or snaps based ) could be a solution but I think that also prediction code should be tuned to have benefits also for all weapons and for a more accurate game-world coherence. In CPMA there are 2 options for cg_predict cvar : 1 -> based on the old q3 code , 2 -> the new code . Quote ... cg_predict <0|1|2> (default = 1) Replaces cg_nopredict. 0 - off 1 - normal 2 - optimised The normal prediction path is extremely slow at times (notably around curves) and can cost you 100fps on a GHz machine. This new scheme is MUCH faster, but slightly more prone to errors. Oddly enough, it's still more accurate than the original id prediction code (i.e. before the CPMA fixes). If you have a slow machine, it's definitely worth trying. Note that cg_predict 2 was introduced 9 Sep 2002, the definition of a "slow machine" has changed since then. Today's computers will not notice any difference at all. Note: Do not use cg_predictItems 1 with cg_predict 2. ... Anyway I feel the game better while using cg_predict 2 even if in theory there should be no differences. BTW , for a general look to the engine preformances , I found the work of a UrT player/developer interesting about real ping and snaps analysis in realtime , the calculation of standard deviations and the conclusions to which he came : - https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4345 - https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4351 he also made an experimental engine for UrT ( get a look to the autotimenudge feature ) : http://www.www0.org/w/Ioq3-urt%3b_builds_of_ioq3_engine_for_urt BTW , there are also other CPMA cvars for tuning client settings ( no code but a good description at least to imagine how they should work ) and snaps is not managed by the client anymore : Quote cg_lagHax <-1|0> (default = -1) A combination of adaptive prediction and an updated version of the famous "50ms hack" we introduced way back in 99v6 that also does small amounts of lag compensation. Capped at 100ms no matter what: this is intended solely to make European / EastUS v WestUS / etc games a bit less of a hassle, not to hack dialup players into aimgods at the expense of everyone else. 0 disables it, -1 means "as much as I'm allowed": it's naturally adaptive. You'll lose some of your "feel" for lag, which messes up your RL aim, etc. This doesn't suffer from the CS/etc problems of "total BS" shots that piss everyone off; it's not trying to be some panacea for modemers; and I'm honest enough to call it the hack that it is instead of pretending that it magically makes lag suddenly not exist, but all in all it's a pretty nice end result. If you use this, any form of nudging will generally make you LESS accurate if your ping's under 100ms, because it'll screw up the adaptive calculations. cg_nudge <value> (default = 0) An updated and much improved version of id's crippled cl_timenudge. Allows you to use nudges beyond -25, and automatically adjusts them to your ping: if you use -50 with a 20 ping, you get -20. If you spike to 40ms for a few seconds, you get -40 during the spike. This give you a "consistent worldview" that cl_timenudge can't, and generally helps regardless of your connection. cg_optimiseBW <bitmask> (default = 0) 1 - Significantly reduces the amount of non-critical data sent to you. Regrettably, this also makes you unable to see players through portals, thanks to a bug in the Q3 engine. Small price to pay though for the HUGE difference it makes to team games. Servers can, and by default do, force this on for all clients. It's probably worth setting it to 1 anyway though, just in case you end up on a server that's changed it to 0. 2 - Use this if your connection is UTTERLY starved for upstream bandwidth (i.e. from you TO the server). Essentially, if you're on dialup or one of those Belgian Warp connections. Understand that if you're warpy and you choose to NOT set this because you like the advantage you get from warping, you're screwing YOURSELF. Your shots will end up with potentially huge random delays on them, so even if you're LPB the server may not see that you fired until up to 100ms after the fact, effectively making your weapons act like you have an unstable and much laggier connection, and without cg_nudge's ability to smooth it out. ... cg_smoothClients Does not exist in CPMA - see cg_xerpClients instead. cg_xerpClients <-1|0|1> (default = 0) A replacement for id's cg_smoothclients that does something useful. :) 1 - Hacked extrapolation: intended for HPBs This smooths players out when you use high timenudges, at the cost of some accuracy. It's typically easier to hit a smooth target that's a few pixels misplaced than it is to hit one that looks like it's teleporting all over the map, so this combined with cg_nudge is the best option for HPBs. 0 - No extrapolation. Fine you're LPB. 1 - id's smoothclients: fine if you have cg_nudge 0, worthless otherwise. Note that prediction errors, such as players in walls, are likely to occur. Tends to increase how much other players warp to you. Use at your own risk. ... snaps snaps should NOT be set in your config. CPMA adjusts snaps value according to the server's sv_fps value. If you join a sv_fps 20 server your snaps get set to 20, if you join a sv_fps 30 server your snaps get set to 30 etc... |