OpenArena Message Boards

id Tech 3 => Engine => Topic started by: faoa on March 21, 2010, 08:35:16 am



Title: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: faoa on March 21, 2010, 08:35:16 am
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Tech_4#History), John Carmack plans to release the id Tech 4 under GPL *somewhere* this year (depends on the release of Rage).

So I was wondering if there are any (probably long-term) future plans/ ideas for OA on id Tech 4?

just-doing-some-daydreaming faoa ...


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: 0kelvin on March 21, 2010, 11:11:08 am
openarena


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: fromhell on April 26, 2010, 04:27:06 am
well, you can always try to slip glsl in the rendering path and fake things. OA on idtech4 would have no compatibility with anything, it'd be better to have that nextgen OA on darkplaces for uh, oa compatibility.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: befno on June 02, 2010, 03:05:21 pm
Would a MP only "Open Quake 4" type of game be in order for this, then? And would it be possible, efforts speaking?


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: fromhell on June 02, 2010, 03:16:40 pm
Only if Raven had released GPLed Quake4 code and its script. Fortunately there might be a chance of that 10 years from now since it's in id's repository, rather than the private raid array at Raven where things rot to death.

Honestly, I think Darkplaces would be a better choice for this not only for the nextgenness... but the physics! Quake4 had awful player physics that felt ball and chain.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: befno on June 02, 2010, 03:22:08 pm
 ;D I didnt think Q4 had such crappy physics, but oh well. :)   Darkplaces, hmm, yeah I've read it's really good.  I dont know, is it better than Xreal? Xreal has support for id tech 4 files.  :)


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: fromhell on June 02, 2010, 03:35:24 pm
I dont know, is it better than Xreal? Xreal has support for id tech 4 files.  :)
Yes.  It also supports IQM model format which already makes idtech 4's md5 files obsolete.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: befno on June 02, 2010, 04:52:27 pm
Ah really.  Awesome.  Need to read up on new file formats, dont know much since the md5 q4 ones.  :) BTW, did you think the other id tech 4 games had the same crappy physics as q4?


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: fromhell on June 02, 2010, 05:05:07 pm
Prey and Doom3 feel similar. Quake Wars had better physics than both of those.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: befno on June 09, 2010, 09:22:33 pm
Ah, this is all good info, thank you.  I dont know much about Darkplaces and its formats, how are they better than MD5? I didnt know MD5 was outdated already.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: testman on November 24, 2011, 09:51:55 am
OK, ID Tech 4 is opensourced under GPL and ready to be abused. :D

So, OpenArena with ID Tech 4?


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: Gig on November 24, 2011, 10:01:39 am
Incompatible license.  :(
Id Tech 4 has been released under GPLv3. All OpenArena stuff is under GPLv2.

More, probably a complete engine conversion would have had major compatibility problems (e.g. how to keep q3 mods working?), I suppose. But Sago007 and Fromhell sure can answer much better than me.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: andrewj on November 24, 2011, 11:06:31 pm
Id Tech 4 has been released under GPLv3. All OpenArena stuff is under GPLv2.
The engine and data can be separate parts, Engine GPLv3, Data GPLv2 -- there are numerous games out there with a more restrictive setup using a GPL'd engine and closed/proprietry data.

Q3 mod compability would have to be abandoned though -- just a minor reason why an OA on idtech4 ain't gonna happen (the major one being the huge amount of work it would take to adapt everything to a new engine).


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: VortexHU on November 26, 2011, 11:32:55 am
Incompatible license.  :(
Id Tech 4 has been released under GPLv3. All OpenArena stuff is under GPLv2.

More, probably a complete engine conversion would have had major compatibility problems (e.g. how to keep q3 mods working?), I suppose. But Sago007 and Fromhell sure can answer much better than me.

Quote from: Standard GPL 2.0 copyright notice
    This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
    it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
    the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
    (at your option) any later version.


so all the content can be kept as gpl2 and distributed under gpl3 at each release/patch or just considered gpl3, which is one of the licenses under which redistribution is permitted by the above notice.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: Peter Silie on November 26, 2011, 12:01:43 pm
jep: each content of gpl2 stuff is compatible with gpl3 but not back.
if oa likes, it could switch to gpl3.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: andrewj on November 26, 2011, 09:49:52 pm
jep: each content of gpl2 stuff is compatible with gpl3
Only if the GPLv2 license says "or any later version".

I think OpenArea stuff is under "GPLv2 only" and hence you cannot just upgrade it to GPLv3.  They are incompatible licenses, because GPLv2-only disallows additional restrictions but the GPLv3 contains extra restrictions (the "v3" stuff).


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: Peter Silie on November 27, 2011, 06:41:32 am
Agree, but the GPL2 contains any later version of the GPL (see extract above).


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: Gig on November 27, 2011, 07:02:04 am
Strange that Fromhell has not said anything here yet. Anyway, in another thread (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4255.0):
Doom3's path is mostly arb mess, it isn't exactly portable.

Besides, no GLSL in Doom3 anyway, and it's gplv3 anyway. It's useless to OA.

If OA were to get bumpmapping, it'd be using deluxemapping on the OA maps (q3map2 for nexuiz did that), using GLSL shaders to render textures bumped, reading from lightgrids for them...

By the way the Doom3 MD5 model format sucks, it doesn't have precalculated normals, which means it'll be shaded badly full of seams if brought to OA.      OA already supports MDR which doesn't have this problem and would technically be most suitable, but again, chicken egg problem - no MDR Blender exporter.

For what I can think:
- One of OpenArena aims was to keep most of Q3 gameplay, so Doom3 physics and weapons should be tweaked to make them similar to Quake 3?
- Q3 stuff compatibilty was another aim of OpenArena... that would be completely lost.
- It would be a mess for low-end hardware users. I haven't tried Doom3 on my machine, but considering my poor FPS performances with OpenArena...
- How many DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/NOTTODO]NOTTODO (http://([b) items would it break?
- To sum up... that would not simply be an OpenArena upgrade... I feel it would be a different game, with re-used OpenArena stuff.
Maybe a fork? But dividing the community into maintaing two different project would be almost impossible, considering how few "real" developers we have.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: grey matter on November 27, 2011, 07:04:07 am
It's up to the author whether or not to use the "or any later clause" of GPL. Quake3 uses it, just look at a random source file header.
Quote from: code/qcommon/q_shared.h
Quake III Arena source code is free software; you can redistribute it
and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as
published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License,
or (at your option) any later version.

Don't know about OA's game assets.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: Coder on February 13, 2012, 08:48:12 am
Hey u copied my thread... anyways no difference if u use md5 or iqm does same things...

U CAN FIND ENGINE HERE: http://www.iodoom3.org/

i know i know it isnt idtech4 (couldnt find it) but its the closest i could get


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: grey matter on February 13, 2012, 12:28:11 pm
ioquake3 (the engine OA currently uses) has support for IQM as well.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: adem on February 13, 2012, 12:57:22 pm
i know i know it isnt idtech4 (couldnt find it) but its the closest i could get
Doom 3 and Quake 4 use idtech4. :-)


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: fromhell on February 13, 2012, 02:49:29 pm
anyways no difference if u use md5 or iqm does same things...

normals


ioquake3 (the engine OA currently uses) has support for IQM as well.
I've mentioned that its IQM support is quite broken enough. Every IQM I tried crashes or has the strangest deformation errors, yet works and looks okay in other engines...


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: grey matter on February 13, 2012, 03:35:53 pm
I've mentioned that its IQM support is quite broken enough. Every IQM I tried crashes or has the strangest deformation errors, yet works and looks okay in other engines...

I've mentioned that ioquake3 has a bugtracker (https://bugzilla.icculus.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=ioquake3). OA on the other hand doesn't, should I thus give a damn about bugs and tell no one?


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: testman on December 29, 2012, 01:02:53 pm

OK, as you have all pointed out, license and NOT-TO-DO list restrict that OpenArena would go ID Tech 4.
All valid points.

But, is there any way that idea of OpenArena running on ID Tech 4 engine would be implemented?
Make OpenArena 2 that runs on it?

Also, three things:
  • Do any of you know of any open source game that uses / is going to use ID Tech 4?
  • Steam is coming on Linux, games along with it. They are not going to be open, but will run on Linux.
    Will there still be need and/or interest for games like OpenArena?
  • Steam made thing named Greenlight where community can choose which games they would like to see on Steam. Could OpenArena go among those that community can choose from?


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: fromhell on December 29, 2012, 01:45:34 pm
I thought about submitting OA to Greenlight when it started (and before the $100 charity fee requirement), but it would've lead to bad implications like selling out, adding DRM, or ditching linux. So I didn't.  Plus, one of my valve fanboy friends advised me not to for the sake of reputation since trainwrecks on greenlight are easy pickings (http://steambrownlight.tumblr.com/).


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: testman on April 09, 2014, 04:30:30 pm
Times have changed.

Steam is stable on Linux, some open source games seem to be avaliable on Steam and Greenlight has somewhat less shovelware.

Crowdfounding was quite effective was for some project to get resources and publicity.

ID Tech 4 is 10 years old engine now.

Is there really no interest for OpenArena (2) with better physics and graphics?

Will I have to make "Openarena on ID Tech 5" thread when ID Tech 6 comes out?

(AFAIK, ID Tech n-1 goes open source when ID Tech n comes out)

[img=http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2009/9/30/1bb22d83a5a6e7e51db43b116310113e_18427.jpg][/img]


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: fromhell on April 09, 2014, 05:28:26 pm
id Tech 4 = no gameplay scripts included = no compatiblity promise = no OA. 


also md5 sucks


Title: Why OpenArena on id Tech 4 isn't going to happen.
Post by: Neon_Knight on April 09, 2014, 05:30:56 pm
Changing the engine DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/NOTTODO]goes directly against the development rules of OpenArena (http://([b). It implies breaking compatibility with Q3/OA custom assets (which are many) and it rises up the requirement line, among other issues. And if gaming development history has shown something is that engine switching has more cons than pros (see: Duke Nukem Forever).

People don't seem to understand what's the real purpose of OpenArena. In many cases, they don't even want to. Which is sad, because that's the main source of a lot of dramas.

So, the short answer is no.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: fromhell on April 09, 2014, 05:56:57 pm
Furthermore engine switching is never a good idea.   Why tear all progress apart just for some butchered non-GLSL vendor-specific lighting models and model formats with poor pipelines and support?  It's far less related to id Tech 3 than id Tech 3 is to id Tech 2.  It's not something OA "needs" either.  This is always an 'easier said than done' kind of thing.


Not to mention the requirement for large amounts of human resources willing to make high poly models with normal maps under the GPL.



There will also never be an id Tech 5-based OA as well.  I am not interested in releasing any multigigabyte-sized games.  I don't even want OA to exceed a few hundred megabytes either.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: Neon_Knight on April 09, 2014, 07:42:31 pm
Also, testman, you talk about physics, and one of the development objectives of OA is to keep the Q3 physics (vital for the gameplay), something which can only be truly done by keeping OA running under the IdTech3.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: testman on April 10, 2014, 07:23:31 am
Maybe I did not make (2) bold and big enough.

Fine then I will make my own OpenArena with blackjack and hookers (http://vimeo.com/4590203)

No, seriously, I never meant that all the work that was put into OpenArena would be thrown away.

I just think that now that SteamOS is going to be a thing, one of thing that could attract people could be nice looking free deathmatch.

Only thing at the moment that offers some kind of deathmatch on Steam on Linux is HL2: Deathmatch, that is not exactly free-to-play.

Team Fortress 2 is team based only, I have not found anything like deathmatch in it.

So what I am saying is that there is still space in upcoming Linux gaming market for deathmatch games, and something with OpenArena-like gameplay and Quake 4 graphics would be very good filler for that space.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: Suicizer on April 10, 2014, 11:45:00 am
Maybe I did not make (2) bold and big enough.

Fine then I will make my own OpenArena with blackjack and hookers (http://vimeo.com/4590203)

No, seriously, I never meant that all the work that was put into OpenArena would be thrown away.

I just think that now that SteamOS is going to be a thing, one of thing that could attract people could be nice looking free deathmatch.

Only thing at the moment that offers some kind of deathmatch on Steam on Linux is HL2: Deathmatch, that is not exactly free-to-play.

Team Fortress 2 is team based only, I have not found anything like deathmatch in it.

So what I am saying is that there is still space in upcoming Linux gaming market for deathmatch games, and something with OpenArena-like gameplay and Quake 4 graphics would be very good filler for that space.

Any Cube Engine 2 game (Sauerbraten, Red Eclipse, Assault Cube and Tesseract) is aiming for Deathmatch and modes like CTF or other teambased modes (like capture-the-base) while all being free (to play and use the source code).

I'm quite sure none of them is on Steam for several reasons.

There already is an Open Arena 3 in the make so there probably won't be a hop over to ID Tech 4 Engine.


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: asmanel on April 10, 2014, 03:05:12 pm
According to what I found, the Steam EULA isn't compatible with free software.

Suicizer, Assault Cube uses the Cube Engine, not the Cube 2 Engine (even if there is at least one AC mod, Assault Cube 2, that use the Cube 2 Engine instead), and Tesseract isn't a game, it's a fork of the Cube 2 Engine.



Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: fromhell on April 10, 2014, 03:41:41 pm
O RLY? (http://store.steampowered.com/app/291150/)


Title: Re: OpenArena on id Tech 4
Post by: Suicizer on April 10, 2014, 10:33:43 pm
According to what I found, the Steam EULA isn't compatible with free software.

Suicizer, Assault Cube uses the Cube Engine, not the Cube 2 Engine (even if there is at least one AC mod, Assault Cube 2, that use the Cube 2 Engine instead), and Tesseract isn't a game, it's a fork of the Cube 2 Engine.



Tesseract may be a fork, but it's a game as well. I forgot to mention; Revelade Revolution has announced to be stable also.
True, Assault Cube isn't a game running Cube Engine 2, but I don't think it matters to testman as he wants a free deathmatch oriented game.