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OpenArena => Technical Snafus => Topic started by: jackmcbarn on November 19, 2010, 09:19:00 AM



Title: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: jackmcbarn on November 19, 2010, 09:19:00 AM
On maps with more than 8192 units of open space, the railgun cannot be used across the map.  Most notably is that on cbctf1, where you cannot shoot the back of one flag platform from the other railgun platform.  Since the 8192 unit trace probably won't be fixed for the sake of full gameplay equivalence with Quake III, I think cbctf1, as well as any other maps with this same problem that I don't know about, should be shrunk for the next release/tribute pack.


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: Gig on November 19, 2010, 11:32:48 AM
Excuse me, but is the bug only of the "look" of the trace or the railgun does not work at all (you can or not hit someone at that distance)?

If it is only a problem of "look", removing maps only for this seems too much... think that there is a workaround for this, simply setting \cg_oldrail 1. This removes the outer spiral from the beam, and seems to not suffer from the bug. I thought it was only a graphic bug... I don't know if it does not allow to hit people.

Probably it is the same bug I previously pointed out here (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=3578.msg35196#msg35196) and to the ioquake3 staff (http://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4774)...

I hope some developer may fix this, but at the moment I had no answer from both OpenArena and ioquake3 developers.


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: pulchr on November 19, 2010, 12:39:43 PM
any map with that kind of distances should be redesigned?

oh, and cbctf1 is imo just an oversized version ctf4.


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: jackmcbarn on November 19, 2010, 01:34:52 PM
It isn't just the look. It really doesn't work.  I don't think it's related to either bug, as it's a server side issue (g_weapon.c weapon_railgun_fire)
Code:
VectorMA (muzzle, 8192, forward, end);

// ...
trap_Trace (&trace, muzzle, NULL, NULL, end, passent, MASK_SHOT );


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: Gig on November 19, 2010, 01:52:31 PM
You're right. It's not only a graphic bug... it affects gameplay, too.

I started the cbctf1 map in team deathmatch mode, added a bot, joined its team, then I went to one of the railgun platforms and ordered to the bot to "camp here". It reached that platform, while I went to the opposite one. With "cg_friendlyfire 1", I shooted at him... using the "draw team overlay" I can see that with the machinegun I can hurt it (even if few bullets hit it at that distance)... while with the railgun I can't do any damage to it.

Strange that the railgun maximum range is lower than the one of the machinegun (I can undestand if an "infinite" range may have been harder to manage... but at least the same range of the other hitscan weapons should have been allowed) ... it would be nice to fix it!


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: Neon_Knight on November 19, 2010, 02:12:53 PM
IICR that comes from Team Arena, (most of the code of the missionpack was included in vanilla OA at some point between 0.8.1 and 0.8.5) which had such limit because the Railgun was already very powerful, and they didn't wanted it to become a Game Breaker (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameBreaker).

I guess they wanted players to use other weapons aside of the Railgun, plus, TA had the three huge terrain maps.


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: jackmcbarn on November 19, 2010, 02:16:21 PM
No, even in vanilla ioquake3 it's that way. The machinegun, however, is capable of shooting up to "8192*16" (131072) units. I've notified the ioquake3 team about this and will post if they respond.


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: fromhell on November 19, 2010, 07:46:29 PM
Isn't that gamecode related? Engine should be irrelevant for this 'problem'.

The railgun range did change in Team Arena. It's a feature.


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: Gig on November 20, 2010, 04:01:46 AM
Fromhell, are you saying that in baseq3 it was 8192*16, and that id Software changed it to 8192 in Team Arena?

It sounds a little strange to be an intentional thing... there are so few maps with these very large open spaces, that changing the rules (shortening the railgun) only for them seems strange. I suppose it would not be so easy to hit someone (moving) at those distances anyway. But I don' know the team arena maps... maybe some of them have such distances.

Anyway, at least the "graphic" part of the "bug" affects baseq3, too. You can test it in Q3DM19, from where you get the quad.

I think they should be fixed... but if you have no intention to improve the railgun range, maybe it's better to maintain the visual bug, too... to be able to know if shooting from there has got sense or not (if you see the graphic bug, the shots don't reach the target, right? But this "indication" is only with cg_oldrail 0). Uhm... fixing the visual bug and adding a message like "too far" or "out of range" after a similar shot would be a more elegant solution. What do you think about it?


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: Neon_Knight on November 20, 2010, 05:18:51 AM
Three of them, (the mpterra* maps) in fact, have those distances.

http://planetquake.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Guides.Detail&id=84&game=4 (don't be fooled by the image, that's just a third of the map, it has a S shape)
http://planetquake.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Guides.Detail&id=85&game=4
http://planetquake.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Guides.Detail&id=86&game=4


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: Gig on November 22, 2010, 05:44:23 AM
I'm not sure that the "short railgun range" has been introduced with Team Arena. I just tested under baseq3 (Q3A v1.32c)... exporting there the cbctf1 map (note: if I don't set com_maxfps to 125, I can't reach the railgun platform), and did the same test, shooting at my team-mate bot that was camping on the opposite platform (my order). I can't reach it with the railgun. Thus, baseq3 has got the same "short" railgun.

I don't know if it is the same since the first version of Q3A, or the range has been shortened with some PointRelase... but it seems a bit strange...

Bug or feature?


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: sago007 on November 22, 2010, 10:57:02 AM
I'm not sure that the "short railgun range" has been introduced with Team Arena. I just tested under baseq3 (Q3A v1.32c)...
Some of the features was also included in Q3A patch 1.27g. However the railgun is not mentioned.


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: jackmcbarn on November 22, 2010, 01:00:00 PM
The ioquake3 team doesn't want to fix this.


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: Gig on November 22, 2010, 02:58:35 PM
A link to their answer?


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: jackmcbarn on November 22, 2010, 05:27:46 PM
Sorry, no link, I asked on IRC.


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: fromhell on November 22, 2010, 09:44:37 PM
Probably because it's out of their scope? They're an engine, not a gameplay base.


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: jackmcbarn on November 22, 2010, 09:52:04 PM
Is this something we could fix?


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: Cacatoes on November 23, 2010, 06:23:11 AM
Would there be a rational for this ?

I feel like a railgun shouldn't have a limited range, it would annoy me to imagine a laser "breaks" in the middle of air (q3 is not realistic but it's not totally out of realism either). Mappers may already expect railguns can cross the whole map, I doubt they take into account their limited range, but I may be totally wrong, and maybe mappers from that era were well aware of that.

I'm curious of trying these wide maps.

For curious people, railgun is one of the stuff dealt in ioquake3 wiki code examples (http://wiki.ioquake3.org/Armor_Piercing_Rails) to illustrate a modding purpose.


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: Gig on November 24, 2010, 03:52:46 PM
Sago, Fromhell... do you know something about this (http://wiki.ioquake3.org/Armor_Piercing_Rails#Can_everyone_see_it.3F)?  ??? Is that a thing to care about only with the "hack" of those examples (with the railgun that passes through walls), or there is the risk that distant people may not see the railgun trace also with the standard railgun behavior?


Title: Re: Railgun issue on large maps (cbctf1)
Post by: sago007 on November 25, 2010, 09:43:09 AM
Is that a thing to care about only with the "hack" of that examples (with the railgun that passes through walls), or there is the risk that distant people may not see the railgun trace also with the standard railgun behavior?
It is possible that players might not see the railtrail if they are in different zones... but then the rail cannot hurt you either, so it is only visibility. If the railgun can hit you then you can also see the trail.