OpenArena Message Boards

Here's a map which I wanted to do since I've learnt how to use GTK/NetRadiant.
It's a pseudo-tutorial map. It starts with the player in a course where he can get used to some of the weapons, (I still have to figure out a way to remove weapons/ammo from the player) recognize items, and it ends in a 1on1 battle against a bot in a separated arena, with the fraglimit in 5 frags, so the arena layout is pretty simple. The bot enters to the arena when the player ends the course, so both of them have chances to win.

I didn't got convinced with the looks of the 1on1 arena so far.

To load the map, go to the SP and enter in oa-tutorial.

I can't enter to the FTP account, I can't remember my pass. -.- So, by now, you have a mediafire link.

Link:
http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/published/mine/oa-tutorial-a2.pk3

Screenshots:
Soon.

I'm hearing suggestions.

Seems a nice idea. I will try it!

Tested... seems good, but...

- Maybe you may place signs if the first room, to indicate the way for the items tutorial and the way to the match.
- Maybe the signs that talk about "instructions" may be placed at a lower height, to be easier to read, even with a modified cg_fov (strange for a newbie, I admit) or with r_picmip not 0 (easy for a newbie, since the default is 1).
- Why do the signs with the icons of the items contain two icons, one small and one big?
- Isn't there a model for the invulnerability item?
- the official name of the red armor is "body armor" or "heavy armor"? And maybe the official name of "haste" is "speed"... right?
- maybe giving some health during the tutorial may be good... a newbie risks to kill himself with rockets and grenades... and if you get killed, you skip the rest of the tutorial, reaching the arena.
- after I killed Skelebot once, i did not find it again: I switched to spectator mode and noticed it did get stuck somewhere... I suppose a spawn point in the wrong place.

Will be done in the next version.

Something like a... "billboard"?

I hadn't any idea. :P
Jokes aside, I didn't knew what to do with them. I was thinking in stick figures (such as those of XKCD and Portal's panels) which showed the effects of the items. I'll implement that in the next version.

No, AFAIK. There was one but was scrapped.

I'm using the official names for the items.

Good one, however, I need to master triggers and targets before doing that. :/ There's a way to avoid the tutorial, since you can enter directly into the arena without having to do the course.

That was a bug, I'll check what I'm doing wrong and try to fix that.

I've noticed the same Skelebot disappearence as Gig, sometimes it happens at the first time, when you enter the 1on1 arena.

Some weapons should have more ammo than 2, like the LG and ChG, beginners have to notice that these two weapons fire continously. Can you make some advanced trigger mechanism: like you have to shoot a far object with the railgun, or you have to shoot a grenade behind a wall, or you have to use the rockets splash damage to open the door? A rocket jump should be optional to learn, it may be hard for beginners, also the sign should say "aim down" instead of "hold down".

Can you make texts appear on the hud, like the frag messages? We could use those to inform players.

This is bad. I suppose we should open a thread in the "models" section of the forum: it is not acceptable to do not have any 3D model for an item... it may even be ugly, but a model is needed!

Official = taken from ....?
The Quake 3 online manual (http://www.bagpipes.net/quake/Manual/index.html) talked about heavy armor (http://www.bagpipes.net/quake/Manual/htmlpages/arenaa.html) and haste (http://www.bagpipes.net/quake/Manual/htmlpages/arenaf.html)... but I just tested in openarena... using the "item_test" q3 map (that is linked in some thread)... when you take the red armor it writes "heavy armor" (and stangely, when you take the yellow armor, it writes simply "armor"... I thought it wrote "combat armor" :-/ ), and when you take the "haste", it writes "speed". Note: to see the text when you pickup something, you have to disable cg_alwaysweaponbar.

I've proposed that to Cosmo via IRC once, but I don't know if he did something. But, yes, not only the model for the item is needed, there's also no forcefield effect.

The one I'm talking about can be found in this thread (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=2673.0). It was sent to the SVNC thread, but it got rejection because of no license file, IICR.

I experienced the problem with skelebot disappearing too.

And I found the lack of health problematic as well.

I once posted my idea here: http://files.poulsander.com/~poul19/public_files/intooa.pk3

It was a lot more simple. The player starts in a room where he can crawl to get a plasma gun or jump to get the yellow armor then enter the teleport to get into the arena. Really basic movement and the player gets a slight advantage then entering the arena.


The ultimate solution is possible somewhere in between.

Let the player choose between 3 roads at the human start location. A basic, an advanced and a directly to the battle. There is always the chance that the player have never played an FPS before but only started the game because it was on the office computer.

Let the player enter the arena with the bot with some advantage. Like the yellow armor.

A thing I am a little uncertain about is if the map should be kept in one plane or not. Multiple levels makes a game more interesting but the player might be more interested to know how to turn and move at that point.

what about doing a "assault curse" ? (or a "course of the combatant"? I dont really know the english expression for this)

I mean, just a circuit, a litlle like a defrag map, where we would do some basic jumps upper a barrier or where we would crawl under something...
Then, some diferents things to show how works every weapon, a shooting range for the rail where we would have to shot on a target which moves to open the door, a glass in between you and a button and just a hole in your right for the grenade,...

Adressed in the next version.

I'll check it.

Hmmm... something like the first Quake's introduction map? I've never thought in that last part.

Doing three maps with 1on1 battles at the end of the courses will work as well? That was my original idea for the tutorial.

Well, Quake Live's training map has two planes.

It's one of the things we're discussing here.

I tested the version of Sago, too. It is nice to have the player learn how to simply jump and crouch, but I don't understand the difference between the two teleporters.

A question: using your maps, they are placed as the first tier (you may have to disable the pk3 of Neon_Knight to see the map from Sago, there)... but this "locks" all the other tiers, like I never played those maps (I suppose because of the engine finds the info about completed maps in q3config.cfg not coherent with the tiers). If I remove your packs, the tiers return unlocked... but I never completed the fraglimit in your test maps... is there the risk that, if I complete your test map, it will "corrupt" the data and simply removing your pk3s will not unlock the tiers again?

For the moment, I backed up my q3config.cfg file.

Nah, I don't think so. It didn't happened with q3dm0, it won't happen here.

My only concern now is... how do I make a shootable trigger? I mean, I have a bullseye in the Railgun room, far away from the door. What should I do in order to make that, when shooted, that bullseye opens the door.

how about adding a "func_button" with a "health"-key of something appropriate. put a bullseye texture on the button and connect it to the door. i'm planning on doing something similar in my space map :)

To what sentence is related this one?

This one.

Excuse me, but... What's the link with q3dm0? Q3dm0 was in Q3A from scratch... I'm talking about adding this map as a first tier on an old OpenArena installation...

This tutorial map is marked with a special key/value combo in the .arena file, the same key/value combo used in order to mark q3dm0 as the tutorial map.

That's the relationship.

Uploading the map, this is the changelog:

- New rooms, with some obstacles.
- Added messages.
- Fixed a problem with the bots not appearing.
- Some of the previous rooms were improved. (Grenade Launcher and Railgun)
- Rocketjumping wall removed in the RL area.
- Added more health in the main arena.
- Replaced many banners.
- Many more fixes.

New version of the map uploaded. Enjoy and comment. ^^

I got several critics or remarks:

- At several places, the light cones are drown at their extremities and draw circles or rectangles.
- Why not putting minigun ammo on the ground instead of giving them ? The player might not realize he had collected some and my not switch weapon.
- This map kinda assumes autoswitch weapon is on. (I rather wish it was off by default)
- Nothing forces someone to use that weapon or another to continue, this is of course normal, but that makes these steps superfluous.
- I can't read the signs with my picmip settings.
- A texture overlap in the grenade launcher room.
- There is a way to make use of GL necessary, see moixie's screenshot. An aspect of the GL is by bounces you can access areas which your player can't, except here it can. GL use seems necessary as it is, but only to hit the trigger, not to "reach" it. Idea: burry the trigger on the ground, and put a grid through which the player can shoot.
- (I'm boring but curious) Any way to make the map "say" something rather than centerprint it ? That would allow logs in console which may also be introduced.
- Centerprint is text which is read, it's more logic if signs are directly read rather than "reading something which only purpose is to tell you to read something elsewhere".
- A general idea is: if you want to teach something, bring new stuff progressively. This goes a bit against the museum idea, and against exhaustivity.
- I've tried several times but no bot appears once in the arena.
- More lava jumps/obstacle could be interesting, right now you can cross the lava "by luck" simply by letting you falling and walking, which is normal behaviour. People also learn by repetition :P

There are of course many points which could make an introduction or tutorial map for OA (should we teach weapon use, console use, commands, gametypes, strafejumping ...) etc.
Tremulous has an additionnal hud (a "tutorial cvar") which is displayed and which tells about which keys are used to change weapons or such. I thought the idea was interesting but could be pushed further.

Edit: a few additional infos.

That's a problem with a texture of the game. oa_minia, as it comes with oa0.8.1, among other maps, suffers the same issue.

About 1: Good one.
About 2 and 3: That's something I thought from the first moment, but I don't know how to make triggers/targets to deplete ammo. There's a way to make the players to start with -100 bullets (so the Machinegun is left with 0) but if it extracts when the ammo count is lower than that, then the game for some reason makes the weapons to have infinite ammo.

Then use normal picmip. :P
Jokes aside, I don't know what to do with the shader, it has the nopicmip keyword, but it still does the same.

Nice pointing. I'll check that later.

Another good one.

Not, as far as I know, aside of the "billboards" and messages. And I really wish that my english would be that perfect. -.-

Progressively as what? I don't get the idea. -.-

Strange, all the times I've tested, bots appeared all the time.
Weren't you using the older version of the map, which had this same issue?

Have you tried falling to the lava? :P

May be a good idea, it would also cover more things which are missing, such as platforms in void areas.

Leave strafe/bunny/...-jumping for an advanced map. This one should be a basic one.
About the console... leave that for a manual. :P
And weapon use... I'd like to cover the basic use for this map, and the advanced for an advanced tutorial.
And as for gametypes, well, other than videos, I don't know how to make these. :/ So, for the moment, my only answer is "leave that for the manual".

Talk with Sago about that.

Tried beta2. Good  :), but....

- Some messages in the hud are too long (they exceed the screen, at least at 4:3).
- When you talk about the amor, what's that "cap at 150?" The maximum armor is 200...
- Placing the signs at a lower height would make them easier to read...
- Why did you remove the rocket jump? To avoid pepole suicide?

- I only half understand the point with ammo but that's not important.
- About picmip, I'm unsure if bigger (like: almost covering the whole wall) signs might help. r_picmip can destroy any texture so I suppose this isn't a good workaround.
- Progressively as, you first learn about a few items, and you are not told about the others. You have to master these few items. Then in the next lesson a few others are presented to you, and some others are still not mentionned, etc etc. This may not be so important for a game which way of working is quite straightforward, but I'm rather convinced a new player would quickly forget a large proportion of weapons/items/powerups which are available in a map where every items are available.
Rather than a museum, for instance, it could be better to teach the concept of powerup rather than showing every powerup. You could put "haste" on your map, and imagine some use of it. The player could then realize what effect this particular item has, could see it has a countdown, and see its effect starts as soon as you get it. Then let him/her go for a run, jumps, etc.
Same for holdables which are another concept, imagine a pit which causes much damage, some medikit could then be used afterwards with the "use" key.
And you wouldn't need to show much more.
So that's why I would have thought about limiting drastically the number of weapons and items available in the map, they could bring more confusion than help. The arena would be emptied of unknown items too, and could have the interest to contain one powerful weapon (bfg ? lightning gun ?...) which wasn't presented before.

The idea of containing every items could be useful, but maybe not in a tutorial. Like q3min had, this could also be useful for testing purposes (testing sounds, icons, etc).

PS: powerups are in crates, is this normal ? I only played beta2, I didn't get the first version. I confirm the bot doesn't appear with me, maybe I have a setting or a pk3 which prevents it.

i saw you used some of evil lairs textures from texturepack 8, which arent in OA 0.85 nor the SVN. Same case for am_lavactf2, which has a lot of e8's textures. Are those legit to use ? I know Lair licenced just a few of his textures under GPL, but you cannot find any information about it on his homepage. Is there any complete list of all his GPLed textures ?

IIRC, those evillair textures (both the old ones in stock OA and Neon's additional ones) are copied from Nexuiz's SVN, back from the time, when Nexuiz was the GPL licensed product.

So I think Nexuiz's (Xonotic?) SVN is what you've searching for.

These are the same textures which came with Nexuiz. Fromhell (who was involved with Nexuiz) said many times that evillair himself granted the GPL permission to Nexuiz (or something like that) when the project became GPLed.

The point is... well... aside from the awesome textures from acc there're next to no industrial textures for industrial maps. (The base* sets are incomplete)

Also, my texturing skills just suck more than my mapping ones. -.-

- The Jumppad looks undersized (change it to 128x128 ?) and could be implemented into the floor.

- You can open every door with every weapon, apart from the grenade launcher room. Any chance of making the other doors like the grenade launcher door ?

- grenade launcher room: Have a look at moixis screenshot, its better if you cant reach the other part of the wall. At the moment there is no need to shoot above the glas wall, just walk around it. The white target spot isnt good visible due to the glas texture (at least here with my settings). Perhabs replacing it with an red spot ?

I know its just a beta map to to get the overall layout ready, but right now the map contains a lot of flat boring walls with only a few textures on it. Since the tutorial map is the map the player is seeing at the first time playing, it should look quite nice, otherwise he could quit immediately. Same case for the "fight room", which is just a cube with some ramps in it. Why not removing those ramps and put some jumpers and stairs into it ? The jumper is part of the first part of the map, but not in the fight room.

About evillairs textures: I downloaded the last nexuiz version 2.5 and it contains the complete sets 6 and 8. Since nexuiz is (was) complety GPL including the content, i can use these textures as well ? I'm working on a re-texturization of pul1ctf and using them until now as dummy textures, which i will replace later by selfmade GPLed textures. But there is no need for it, since they are already gpl ?

Edit:  If you die in the first part of the map, you will spawn in the fight room. Any chance of changing this ?

Looks like the answer is yes about the evillair textures, **HD.

Nexuiz 2.5.2 was released in 2009 and the new, closed-source development started in the first half of 2010. So they are indeed GPLed.

it will be interesting to see the result :)

but just so you know - i've promised to replaced the textures myself and i'll do it sooner or later. but as i'm working on pul4ctf and pul1ffa it will probably not be ready in time for the next oa release anyway...

Well... I'll be ditching the tutorial map, but at the same time, it's pretty much obvious that OA needs a newbie tutorial. It's true, as well, that not everyone wants to play online against everyone, but just pass the time. So, my idea is to make something like this (http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8108/quake1uo90878391.jpg), (the tutorials may need further unlocking, but the arenas should be unlocked from the beginning)

---

oa_tutorial01
Intro: "Welcome to OpenArena. This is the first Tutorial course. Choose what you want to do."

- Basic tutorial (Basic movement - unlocked from the beginning)
  * Jump
  * Crouch
  * Environment interaction (jumppads, teleporters)
- Basic tutorial (Weapons 1 - needs Basic movement to unlock)
  "In order to access to this tutorial, you must first complete the movement tutorial"
  * Gauntlet
  * Machinegun
  * Shotgun
  * Lightning Gun
  * Railgun
- Basic tutorial (Items 1 - needs Basic movement to unlock)
  "In order to access to this tutorial, you must first complete the movement tutorial"
  * S-Health
  * M-Health
  * L-Health
  * S-Armor
  * Y-Armor
  * R-Armor
- Go to the Arena (Unlocked from the beginning)

Arena:
  * Shotgun
  * Lightning Gun
  * Railgun
  * S-Health
  * M-Health
  * L-Health
  * S-Armor
  * Y-Armor
  * R-Armor

Fraglimit: 5
Timelimit: 10

---

oa_tutorial02
"This is the second Tutorial course. Choose what you want to do."
- Basic tutorial (Weapons 2 - unlocked from the beginning)
  * Grenade Launcher
  * Rocket Launcher
  * Plasma Gun
  * BFG
- Basic tutorial (Powerups - unlocked from the beginning)
  * Quad Damage
  * Battle Suit
  * Invisibility
  * Haste
  * Regeneration
  * Flight
- Advanced tutorial (Weapon moves and advanced jumps - needs Weapons 2 and Powerups to be unlocked)
  "In order to access to this tutorial, you must first complete the other two tutorials"
  * Strafejumping
  * Rocket jump
  * Plasma climbing
- Go to the Arena (Unlocked from the beginning)

Arena:
  * Grenade Launcher
  * Rocket Launcher
  * Plasma Gun
  * BFG
  * Quad Damage
  * Battle Suit
  * Invisibility
  * Haste
  * Regeneration
  * Flight

Fraglimit: 5
Timelimit: 10

---

oa_tutorial03
"This is the third Tutorial course. Choose what you want to do."
- Advanced tutorial entry 1 (Jumps - unlocked the first part from the beginning)
  * Some advanced jump(s)
  "In order to progress, you must complete the other two tutorials"
  Entry 2 (Requires Weapons 3 and Items 3 to unlock)
  * Some jump which requires an item to be completed.
- Basic tutorial (Weapons 3 - unlocked from the beginning)
  * Nailgun
  * Chaingun
  * Prox Launcher
- Basic tutorial (Items 3)
  * Medkit
  * Teleporter
  * Kamikaze
  * Invulnerability
  * Runes
- Go to the Arena (Unlocked from the beginning)

Arena:
  * Nailgun
  * Chaingun
  * Prox Launcher
  * Medkit
  * Teleporter
  * Kamikaze
  * Invulnerability

Fraglimit: 5
Timelimit: 10

---

oa_tutorial04
"Now that you know how to move and shoot in the Arena, you must complete a final test. Shoot the three bullseyes to free your opponent, and win the match."

- Here the player must shoot three triggers to release the enemy, much in the same vein of Q3R's final boss battle, where you must free him in order to fight against him. I'll be leaving this.

(Map should feature few weapons and items)

Fraglimit: 10
Timelimit: 10

---

I'll manifest my idea in map forms, since I'm not good writing in english nor getting an idea well... (and since a lot of people will take me always literally, even when I don't want to be literal... -.-)

circle jump and sj tut should use something like that horizontal green and red bar in defrag. some sort of immediate feedback mechanism is probly much better training than trial and error. but i rly shouldn't suggest making a custom mod or w/e would be needed for that to happen...


what would u consider a minimal but useful set of textures? i'm trying to figure out texturing, so curious.

Then I should get rid of that part?

Well... I'm trying to go for the middle ground nowadays: flat walls are crap, but overtexturing and overdetailing are bad as well.

I've started checking out the maps oa_dm3 and oa_dm5 in order to figure out how to texturize.

no, we definitely need those b/c ppl pretty much need to learn them anyway, otherwise they can't do anything w/experienced players. i was just saying that we should use more advanced tools to teach it if we ever have the resources to do so.


as far as what texs r needed: some number of walls, trims, floors, ceilings, lights, portals, decals, other?

Well, as I've said before, not everyone who plays OA wants to play online as well, and the tutorials should be optional in the maps, not something obligatory.

And AFAIK we don't have these. People suggested in a past thread (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=3153.0) demos and videos being included with the game, but I can't really see how that can be more useful than interactivity.

These are my choices, so far:

For industrial maps, the acc_dm3 and evil8_* packs (which you can find in Nexuiz) are my most used packs. (The first versions of am_lavaarena were purely done with the acc_dm3 pack) There are some on the base_* packs which can be useful, as well.

For temple-like maps, I mainly use acc_dm5. (Example: am_mckinleyish2) Though I've found the egyptsoc_* pack (also included with Nexuiz, and which I've used for oa_reptctf3) to be great as well.

For castle maps, mainly e7, and then the gothic_* pack.

I tend to go for walls with one or two textures for long trims (some from evil8_trims or acc_dm3/rivets) others for intersections, (from evil8) some others for the walls (acc_dm3/concrete is my favourite for floors and walls, though there are others, such as acc_dm3/concrttrim or acc_dm3/wallbot) but it really depends on what you want to achieve.

i meant something interactive, in the hud (like a cgaz) or displaying a spline that the player should follow, floating keypress billboards, or smth like that.

huds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIFO4wB3bwo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOffE5_k2f0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEsSJd1UIDU


thx, i'll keep those in mind.

What about a ghost? A semi transparent player that just keeps doing the trick over and over again. One can try to mimic its actions.

would be good too, maybe that's sufficient feedback for rapid learning? we could test this statistically w/new players eventually (better than musing :) ).

It seems like I'm going to need some help... -.-

Any news? Plans to place the map in OA 0.8.8?


PS: a model for invulnerability powerup would be very appreciated, showing a missing powerup model in the first map the players encounter isn't a big presentation...

In the attic, by now.

Do you mean "at the moment it's in a looong pause and I don't know if and when will continue it"?

Exactly.

So far, I planned to do three Tutorial levels for the SP:
- Basic, for those uninitiated in FPS or those which come from other kind of FPS. Such as learning what does every weapon and item, environment stuff such as jumppads and world dangers, and really basic move as in jumping and ducking.
- Medium, with stuff between Basic and Advanced.
- Advanced, including weapon jumps and strafe/circle jumps.

The three tutorials would be unlocked from the start in the SP.

But I won't reach the deadline in time with them. Perhaps for OA3 I might.

I don't want OA to be an elite-only game.

Page on the wiki:
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Map_Ideas/Tutorial_Map

I'm not going to lie, but I didn't read this thread. but I think a tutorial map for this game is a little pointless. People know how to play FPS's, and most people are familiar with Quake to begin with.
Not to be a prick, though.

However, the idea is still interesting and I thought I'd add this thought: Ever play any of the Metroid games? For example, when you obtain a new item or ability in Metroid, you're usually forced to make use of it immediately after obtaining it. So think like, if you're trying to show the usefulness of the Mega Health or Mega Armor, make it so they have to grab it in order to survive running through acid to the next part of the level. Kind of systematic, y'know?

An example of the advantage of a Tutorial map: I was playing with a buddy on Wednesday on a map that has invulnerability.  Because of the combination of the graphic on 0.8.5, and no tutorial, he didn't realize what it was.  I'd pick it up, apply it at the top of a jump pad, and clear out the room while he wasted ammo on me.  Later, I showed him what I'd done.  He was irked, but in a good way.

Hmmm... don't assume that everyone else knows Quake or the FPS genre (http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanMyopia). As Sago pointed out above, there's always the chance that someone have never played an FPS before, but only started the game because it was on an office computer, or one of his friend's PC, and never touched a game before. And Quake nowadays isn't that popular outside of QL. (There're people out there who play FPS but doesn't know what Quake is, seriously)

Time to put my hands on the redesign.

Meanwhile, I'll hear this for some inspiration... :P (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTnfNtohpU)

Neon, good to see you're still active.

I haven't kept up with the community much at all for a good while now, but I might soon find myself playing around with NetRadiant and likely making another map or two for funsies.

I'm pretty much saying this because I feel as if we should form an alliance. Two mappers. ONE GOAL. THE BEST. MAP. EVA!

(Coming to an openarena release near you, 2013)

;)

Yay!
If you're interested, check this topic (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4679.0). :P

I'm in, 50% sure of that. It depends entirely on how busy I am with other projects.

Would it to taboo for me to discuss a flowchart of who does what in this project?

Not to be so full of myself, but I'm damn amazing at the editor, and I've found that the end result can be great if I have somebody alongside me to give me tips like "This should be adjusted, this shouldn't be here, you definitely shouldn't have put that armor there, etc. The general layout is what I do, but I require lots of feedback to "perfect" the map.

Also, is it safe to assume we're doing CTF? I want to challenge myself by doing a non-mirrored CTF map.


I'm certainly interested, but I'm not entirely sure when I'll get stsrated. Could be this week, could be next month or two or three. But I'll keep in touch. This sounds like fun.