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OpenArena => General => Topic started by: Gig on January 10, 2011, 12:42:02 pm



Title: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 10, 2011, 12:42:02 pm
It's a long time I've been thinking about creating a page in the Wiki to use it to recap the improvements needed in the Wiki site itself.

It would contain
1) - List of pages that should be created
2) - List of pages that exist, but should be expanded or updated (people should explain what is needed for each page, in short)
3) - List of images needed
4) - List of images that refer to very old releases and should be updated/replaced (maybe this may be a single thing with point 2), considering that images are shown in pages)
5) - Links to some service pages in the Wiki (see DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Special:SpecialPages]Special:SpecialPages (http://([b))
Suggestions?

If talk is needed for something, we may use the "talk page" of that page, or a thread on the forum (maybe this thead).

I'm not sure of what should be the name of that page. A "TODO" page doesn't exist yet, but probably it should contain things to do for the game itself, not for the wiki site! (Maybe TODO could be a redirect to the "DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Roadmap]Roadmap (http://([b)" page?)[/size]. There is already a page called DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/NOTTODO]NOTTODO (http://([b) and it talks about things that will not be done in the game.
How could we call that page? "WikiTODO", "WikiWork", "OpenArenaWiki"? Please give your ideas.
Page names can contain spaces. Wikia is case sensitive (except for the first letter; case sensitive is ignored when performing a search, but is important when writing a link), but it is possible to create redirects that allow to reach the same page using different names.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Cacatoes on January 10, 2011, 02:13:58 pm
WikiWork sounds nice to me ; though I fear most people won't organize themselves around that page, and I don't know which areas need to be improved or it turns quite obvious when you go on the wiki and see what is missing there. Feel free to make it if you have ideas of what to put to fill this page, you got a better overview of the wiki than any of us.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 16, 2011, 07:36:52 am
Somebody else's opinions?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Peter Silie on January 16, 2011, 03:02:31 pm
The idea itself is realy great!
But i am unable to contribute...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 17, 2011, 02:21:39 am
Why don't you will be able to contribute? Not enough time?

Anyway, don't worry. I will create the page and put in the first things... then anyone will be able to write more suggestions there. And, with some time, I hope that someone may create the pages needed.

But, before starting... what name do you suggest?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: RMF on January 17, 2011, 03:56:33 am
I think we should go for the clearest name (WikiToDo) rather than the catchiest one. But WikiWorks may be clear enough too.
Whynot flip a coin, we can always change and make the other name redirect.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Udi on January 17, 2011, 05:32:24 am
I'm voting for WikiWorks!


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Peter Silie on January 17, 2011, 06:17:54 am
Why don't you will be able to contribute? Not enough time?

Indeed :(
Sometimes you have to focus on things ;)

WikiWorks or WikiToDo sounds well to me!


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 17, 2011, 06:03:36 pm
Ok, then.
I created "DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/WikiWorks]WikiWorks (http://([b)" page, with "WikiWork", "WikiToDo" and "WikiTODO" as redirects to it.

I've put the first requests/suggestions there. Anyone is invited to use that page, check it, insert new suggestions, do the changes needed in the various pages...

Note: I'm tired, I could have put some errors in the page, please check. Goodnight! Zzzzzz.....


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 18, 2011, 03:56:33 pm
Okay, I see Udi started to use the page.
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=WikiWorks&diff=8103&oldid=8102
Let's begin talking.

Udi, with that, did you mean that in BaseOA, for the Q3 and TA "missing" textures and shaders, we are going to use those created by the staff of AfterShock? Is this? I suppose they are GPLv2, right? But how to use them, since Fromhell accepts SVN commits only from the author of the stuff? Will every AfterShock texture creator register on our forum and ask for the SVN commit by himself?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Udi on January 18, 2011, 05:40:55 pm
Udi, with that, did you mean that in BaseOA, for the Q3 and TA "missing" textures and shaders, we are going to use those created by the staff of AfterShock? Is this? I suppose they are GPLv2, right? But how to use them, since Fromhell accepts SVN commits only from the author of the stuff? Will every AfterShock texture creator register on our forum and ask for the SVN commit by himself?

Yes, the texture artist at AfterShock is **HD, see one of his posts (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=3792.msg33026#msg33026). He's working on the textures of q3dm6, it's pretty close to 100%, but not yet finished, you can check it out with AfterShock rev. 78. I guess when it's 100% finished he will post his pack to the SVN commit topic. So far no close collaboration was needed because (I haven't produced any new textures and) I am working on space themed maps, he's working on gothic themed maps so the textures don't overlap, but I'll return contributing to OA soon, so we have to keep track of who does what.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: 7 on February 13, 2011, 05:03:40 am
Hi, I just wanted to report I made a made a start with the (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Game_physics page.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 13, 2011, 07:17:47 am
It seems a nice work...  :) Thank you very much!  ;)
I have to go now... in the next days, I will add some DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Game_physics]incoming links (http://([b) for that page...

Ps: what about a section that talks about CPMA physics (as opposed to the Vanilla Q3 physics) that players can find in some mods?
And do the "new" physics types apply to old mods, or they continue to use only the original physics (or it depends from how much "custom" is the single mod?)?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on February 13, 2011, 08:03:00 am
I've added a small aclaration in the Config of Accurate physics.You might want to correct it, since my english just sucks. Also, you might want to link to the latest version of OAX.

Quote
The interval is calculated by dividing 1000 by the fps to be emulated, or the other way around:

1 1000/1 = 1000

But what happens when the value is 0? :P


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: 7 on February 13, 2011, 11:52:55 am
I've added a small aclaration in the Config of Accurate physics.You might want to correct it, since my english just sucks. Also, you might want to link to the latest version of OAX.

[X] Check (it might take a while before the wiki displays the edits).

Quote
But what happens when the value is 0? :P

This will make the server explode and will crash all connected clients ;)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 13, 2011, 05:51:57 pm
Thank you all, guys! This is the way to make the wiki more complete!  ;)

I just did DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Game_physics&action=historysubmit&diff=8194&oldid=8177]some additions (http://([b) to the page, could you please check they are ok?

I also changed a "pmove_float" into a "pmove_msec", because that part was talking about "fixed" physics and thus I suppose "pmove_float" was there for a typo, right?

Uhm... if pmove_msec cannot se bet lower than 8, this means that it is not possible to emulate more than 125 fps, right? Then, I suppose we could remove some lines from the example table...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: 7 on February 14, 2011, 11:05:44 am
Uhm... if pmove_msec cannot se bet lower than 8, this means that it is not possible to emulate more than 125 fps, right? Then, I suppose we could remove some lines from the example table...

I think people won't understand how the calculation works if we remove the starting values from the table. I've made the usable values bold instead.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: RMF on February 15, 2011, 06:19:10 am
Why is pmove_msec limited actually?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: sago007 on February 15, 2011, 09:23:07 am
Why is pmove_msec limited actually?
Possible to prevent low numbers that does not work anyway. Like com_maxfps 500 and com_maxfps 1000 makes you feel like ice-skating.... well like how I feel when ice-skating or I am drunk. 


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 15, 2011, 05:02:02 pm
Okay, I added some incoming links from other pages.

Thank you everyone. :)

The DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/WikiWorks]WikiWorks (http://([b) page contains other ideas for articles to be created. Take a look!


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 20, 2011, 07:46:31 am
Hi guys. I've prepared a page about automatic downloading and http redirection, but I do not have uploaded it yet (do not search it on the wiki today) because first I would like to understand a bit more about "rate" and "sv_maxrate"...

Could you please take a look to this thread
http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4066
and in particular to this post
http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4066.msg37519#msg37519
?
Thank you!


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 25, 2011, 12:58:39 pm
Hi guys. I've prepared a page about automatic downloading and http redirection, but I do not have uploaded it yet (do not search it on the wiki today) because first I would like to understand a bit more about "rate" and "sv_maxrate"...

Could you please take a look to this thread
http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4066
and in particular to this post
http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4066.msg37519#msg37519
?
Thank you!
Up!

PS: It would be nice if you guys could register on Wikia, this way I could understand who makes the changes...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 28, 2011, 04:07:28 pm
Hi guys! I created
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Automatic_downloading

Since I was dubious about some extra variables, for the moment I have not mentioned them (see DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Talk:Manual/Automatic_downloading]here (http://([b)).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on March 01, 2011, 04:35:11 pm
Hi guys.. a question.
An unregister user (maybe Neon Knight?) renamed "DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/ModCompat]ModCompat (http://([b)" page to "Mod Compatibilty"... and then I renamed it to "Mod compatibility" to use uppercase and lowercase correctly.
But that page has got many sub-pages:
examples: DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/ModCompat/Bazooka_Quake_3]ModCompat/Bazooka Quake 3 (http://([b); DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/ModCompat/Alternate_Fire]ModCompat/Alternate Fire (http://([b).
What do you think we should do for them? Rename all of them, too? Or restore the original name ot the parent page?
I suppose that maintaing these page names short was not a bad thing...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on March 01, 2011, 04:43:23 pm
Leave them as ModCompat. As long as that isn't a real problem...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on March 01, 2011, 04:53:23 pm
Leave them as ModCompat. As long as that isn't a real problem...
But it's quite strange to have a sub-page with the first part that does not match the parent page...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 26, 2011, 05:15:31 pm
Hi guys!
I think that writing something to the "DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Techniques]Manual/Techniques (http://([b)" page would have been good. So DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Manual%2FTechniques&action=historysubmit&diff=9067&oldid=9059]I wrote about techniques (http://([b), translating from italian Wikipedia, and taking something from a post on the forum. But please take a look to that page and fix anything it is good to fix (e.g. I'm not so good with plasma climbs, maybe the tip could be better... I don't know about circle jumping, and I don't know about CPM tecniques).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Cacatoes on September 27, 2011, 03:21:08 am
Seems fine, you can precise Plasma Climb makes low damages (compared to other techniques) while they are less effective than Rocket Jumps, they are sometimes "enough" to reach places. (Useful in particular scenarios, such as in some oa_base map, and eventually on oasago2)

Most of these techniques are better explained with videos (it's probably hard to get what strafejumping is about by reading) so you might leave a mention about that fact somewhere early enough in the article.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 27, 2011, 04:34:13 am
Okay, I did DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Manual%2FTechniques&action=historysubmit&diff=9092&oldid=9081]this (http://([b)... and also DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Manual%2FRocketjump&action=historysubmit&diff=9088&oldid=9057]this (http://([b). Feel free to edit and complete...

PS: does that "Genesis - The Beginning Of" video use Vanilla or CPM physics?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 07, 2011, 08:50:36 am
Bump!

Figured out the map-individual pages should get some love. After all, they play a big role in OA.

I've started with Aggressor, using as base the template at the Liandri Archives. Any thoughts?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: christooss on December 07, 2011, 12:42:02 pm
Yeah maps do need individual pages. I would suggest adding some text at the start of the map. Maybe map setting/story if it exists. And screenshot at the top. I will look in to your edits and try to add similar for other maps.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 07, 2011, 12:50:35 pm
A simple description of the map in Map Description should do the trick.

Something like this (http://liandri.beyondunreal.com/DM-HyperBlast) is what I'm aiming for, wiki-wise talking.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 18, 2011, 01:19:33 pm
"Our main datacenter is down, you are accessing our backup datacenter. We are working to fix the problem."

We can't edit by now, it seems...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on December 18, 2011, 05:20:47 pm
Wikia goes in read-only cause of manutention relatively often, but usually there is no need to worry, simply returning later...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 05, 2012, 02:58:00 pm
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Maps

I've created pages for each map, except those of future versions. Notice how bare are the ones in Dummied maps. They belong to a category called "Cut content", because in 0.8.8 they can only be accessed through the console, and not through the Skirmish and Create server menus.

But that's not the point. The point is that the maps listed in 0.8.8 maps need further elaboration. So I was wondering if someone can complete those lists. :P

I suggest to take a look at both the DO NOT LINK (http://([b)) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Template:Weapons]Weapons[/url] and DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Template:Weapons]Items (http://([b)[/b] before editing those pages, because in these pages, the "Where it's located?" section is missing. I haven't put in there when I made the templates, but there are instructions in those pages.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Peter Silie on January 05, 2012, 03:22:57 pm
This was a hard one to do, NK!
+1
All guys are happy with this solution?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on January 05, 2012, 04:37:15 pm
Sorry guys to hijack a little the thread, but I have some questions about the usages of the Wiki.

I'd like to add some articles but I wonder if the Wiki could be used for this purpose.

For example:

- Servers administration: this would mainly be a collection of small articles explaining various sides of servers administration like the gamepath or homepath, and some advices like creating a limited user account on a Unix machine.

- Defrag tutorial: I can see that there is already an objective article about tricks, so this can be used to talk about the objective side of it. But what about making a tutorial? Is there a place for original works? Because I think that centralizing the original works such as tutorials should be very beneficial to OpenArena (as opposed to Q3 where you can spend days and days and even months to find a single piece of information).

As a side question, is it possible to include a video in an article (such as a youtube video, because I guess that wikia doesn't allow to store big files on their servers).

What do you think guys?

And BTW, you did a really great job guys, I always said that making a wiki for OA was one of the greatest goal to attain for this project, and you've gone to great lengths to achieve it! It's now a reference not only for OA, but for any ioquake3 based game.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 05, 2012, 05:31:14 pm
I saw several wikis with videos inside of Wikia (the Starcraft (http://starcraft.wikia.com) wiki comes to mind) so yeah, it should be possible to place videos inside of articles.

About server administration, I guess under DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Servers]Servers (http://([b) there's something.

And about Defrag, I don't know, Gig should reply that, since he's the one in charge of the wiki. :P


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 05, 2012, 07:24:01 pm
Hi guys! I'm sorry for not being too much on the wiki lately. Working on my new house and preparing the wedding are really spending most of my time. I'm writing from phone just before going to bed.

About maps, I noticed you were working a lot on those articles. Good job. :) I wanted to ask you if you could add infos in image description pages (e.g. file:image.jpg), like I wrote in images I uploaded. Briefly saying what's depicted and license info (e.g. "Screenshot of map wrackdm17 from OpenArena 0.8.8. OpenArena is by OpenArena Team and licensed under GPLv2. Screenshot taken by PumpkinKnight and released under GPLv2").
And I thought we talked somewhere about placing pages about maps in sub-pages, like "maps/wrackdm17"... how did we end that time? (note: please remember that in sub-pages, also the first letter of the sub page name is case sensitive, like all others except the first letter of the main page name)

I haven't tried yet to upload videos to Wikia. File types currently allowed are png, gif, jpg, jpeg, ico, pdf, svg, odt, ods, odp, odg, odc, odf, odi, odm, ogg, ogv, oga. Probably, like in Wikipedia, one has to convert the video to OGG format. Or maybe you could simply add external links to videos on youtube (I don't know if it is possible to use youtube embedding, but maybe not).

About server administration, we already have something (servers, multiplayer, homepath, configuration examples...) and DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Category:Servers]Category:Servers (http://([b). Let's see what's already there and think what we could add to those pages and what to new pages.

About Defrag tutorial, for first I'd like someone may be able to complete the page about techniques with the missing things (circle jumps, something more?) using the same style (brief description of the technique and its use). Then, someone really expert (not me, I tried it only a couple of times) could write the Defrag tutorial, as one (or more) sub-page of Manual/Techniques or of ModCompat/Defrag. I suppose it would require some time, so you have to be motivated to begin writing the entire tutorial.

Always available to help in any way I can, even if now I'll be less present than in the past.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on January 06, 2012, 08:20:22 am
@Gig: is it your own wedding you're talking about? Then congratulations! This is a very important time of one's life, you should not be sorry to put the rest aside, you've done quite enough I think ;)

For servers administation, yes of course I will check the already very good database on the subject, but there are some missing articles I may then add.

About Defrag, if I understand well, it means that you're ok with original creations like a Defrag tutorial. I agree with the idea of making an objective quick summary of all the techniques, then a more throughout tutorial separately. I have already a draft of an innovative tutorial to learn Defrag very easily, with a good learning induction of the mechanism of Defrag's engine. I intend to publish it someday, and I really wanted to publish it on the wiki directly instead of publishing it on a third-party source, I really think that everything should be centralized now that we have a great and accurate wiki.

About the videos, then that's perfect! There's no problem in converting the videos, and if they can directly be stored on the wiki, then this is great as this should avoid possibly future unavailability of the host. On the matter, is there a storage limit or none?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 06, 2012, 08:37:45 am
Maybe we could make a sort of "administrator's manual", somehow similar to user manual, with the links to other pages (and to sections in the others pages, if needed) and maybe also placing something directly in there. Maybe, before doing that page, we should do some other specific pages (I'd like one about configuration files -Q3config.cfg, server.cfg, autoexec.cfg, etc.- but there are some things I don't know so it's better someone else makes it... and one about debugging commands (devmap & relative "cheats", developer 1, etc.), but I haven't found the time yet.
PS: yes, the wedding is my own. I'm sorry I will be much less active after it... my life will change a lot!!!

I don't know about wikia file size limits, sorry.

For me, it's not problem to publish your tutorial on the Wiki (maybe you may ask Fromhell to be sure). Remember that text in the wiki is released under cc-by-sa license.

To Neon Knight: I noticed you uploaded some images with "small" in the name. I think that should not be necessary, usually mediawiki allows to resize images "on the fly" when using them, using something like [[File:image.ext|120px]]. I can't do tests now. Bye!


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 06, 2012, 09:11:07 am
To Neon Knight: I noticed you uploaded some images with "small" in the name. I think that should not be necessary, usually mediawiki allows to resize images "on the fly" when using them, using something like [[File:image.ext|120px]]. I can't do tests now. Bye!
I do use the "-small" postfix to differentiate those files from others of the same name which are already used for the screenshots.

BTW, you might note that I've deleted the old screenshots from those pages; I'm taking new screenshots this weekend, now that 0.8.8 RC2 has been released. Those old screenshots might not represent how those maps are now.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on January 06, 2012, 09:24:45 am
@Gig: No problem for the license, I like creative commons.

About the Servers Manual, yes that's a good idea, but I thought there already was an index. This is without any doubt a main step to take for the servers administration part of the wiki.

I can do the articles you are talking about, but I'm not sure they should be the first to be made, I will see if I can put it on my schedule, but I've got a lot to do I must confess. I will probably first contribute by creating articles that you may not find anywhere else, then these more common parts can be made by me or by other experienced admins.


Title: Help for the wiki!!!
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 06, 2012, 11:09:55 am
Help request!

Can someone help me to move the maps to their new locations? Wikia doesn't let me move many pages in a short period of time.

Said new locations should be under Maps/, for example:

Blitzkrieg3 → Maps/blitzkrieg3

The first letter of the page after Maps/ needs to be lowercase because I did a new template and it needs to be this way to work.

Is there anyone here who can help me for this? We need a bit of organizaton for this work.

BTW, I'm doing the A letter.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 06, 2012, 03:04:56 pm
Neon, let me the time to take a look...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 06, 2012, 03:14:41 pm
It's everything done, don't worry.

Something which needs to be done is the descriptions of the maps, and tips for every map. There's also a page and category for cut content, which, hopefully, will also have a lot of interesting bits about the dev history of OA. And yeah, there's actually people who are interested in such things. :P

Thanks to the one who helped me, I don't know who's him/her in the forum, but in the wiki is R9k or something like that.

Just finished with the maps, we even have a new template, heh.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 06, 2012, 03:37:07 pm
Okay. Anyway, I've taken a look, but I haven't fond a command to move many pages at once, not even in administration panel. I think on Wikipedia they use "bots" for such kind of tasks (when there is something to do on hundreds of pages), but I have no idea of how to create one, and I don't even know if it is possible to use them on Wikia.

GrosBedo, if you have ideas about needed articles and improvements, you can also write them down in the DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/WikiWorks]WikiWorks (http://([b) page, as a reminder.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 06, 2012, 04:22:05 pm
To Neon Knight: I noticed you uploaded some images with "small" in the name. I think that should not be necessary, usually mediawiki allows to resize images "on the fly" when using them, using something like [[File:image.ext|120px]]. I can't do tests now. Bye!
I do use the "-small" postfix to differentiate those files from others of the same name which are already used for the screenshots.

BTW, you might note that I've deleted the old screenshots from those pages; I'm taking new screenshots this weekend, now that 0.8.8 RC2 has been released. Those old screenshots might not represent how those maps are now.

Wait... maybe I don't understand something. Please forgive me if I'm slow in realizing.
I see this image:
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/File:Mlca1-small.jpg
It is a 128x128 image. Very small. Maybe you used existing levelshots, to place something in the pages for the moment, without the need to take new, good screenshots now, to make faster?  ???
And it seems a File:Mlca1.jpg (without the -small prefix) does not exist. What's the name conflict problem here?
Anyway, to replace existing images with newer versions it is possible to use the function to upload a new version of an existing file (link at the bottom of a file description page), overwriting the old file without the need of deleting or renaming it.
If you have to post more images about a certain map, of course you can call them like mlca_01.jpg, mlca1_02, mlca1_03, etc.

I suggest to use at least 640x480 screenshots (if you want, even more, unless we are talking about "fair use" images), then use MediaWiki options for resizing as needed (but allowing users to see the image bigger by clicking on it).

PS: in the description page, I suppose you may at least place the {{GPL}} template in the "Licensing" section.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on January 07, 2012, 07:42:39 am
GrosBedo, if you have ideas about needed articles and improvements, you can also write them down in the DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/WikiWorks]WikiWorks (http://([b) page, as a reminder.

I will but for the articles I will post it's no need since this can't be delegated, I need to first publish a draft.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: sago007 on January 07, 2012, 07:48:11 am
I think no screen shot should be under 1024x768. It is very frustrating not to be able to click the images larger.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 07, 2012, 09:01:27 am
@Gig: Yeah, I've used just the levelshots. They are the first thing many people see about the map before loading the map proper, hence it's inclusion.

I think no screen shot should be under 1024x768. It is very frustrating not to be able to click the images larger.
Hence why I'm replacing all the screenshots of the maps.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 07, 2012, 09:44:47 am
I think no screen shot should be under 1024x768. It is very frustrating not to be able to click the images larger.
Note: not the case with OA maps... but remember the exception of the case of fair use, when "low resolution" is required (I suppose 640x480 okay there).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 07, 2012, 03:39:35 pm
Since Gig is going to be RL'd, it would be a good idea for 0.8.8 to gather more mod testers.

So far, I'm redoing all the mod pages on the wiki (and adding some more) giving them a common template.

Oh, and the extra stuff in the Mod compatibility page is now in the pages proper. Better that way, only mod pages needs to be updated.

EDIT: Finshed until "C". I'll do the rest later. Now to fix stuff.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 07, 2012, 06:23:02 pm
RL'd? :-\ Do you mean "catched by real life"?

Hey guys, you are making a large amount of huge changes in the wiki in these days... days where I'm really busy with real life and so I can't keep up following all the changes. D'oh! So please, let's take the time to discuss a bit large changes before starting to heavily edit a large number of existing articles...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 07, 2012, 06:46:51 pm
Yep, RL'd = Real Life'd. :P

I think that pages belonging to a single category should have a constant look for a better organized info. For example, maps. Every wiki out there does that.

I don't see why mods can't follow that as well.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on January 07, 2012, 06:49:25 pm
Gig - The Wiki Gates Keeper. I think you ought to get that title ;)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 08, 2012, 05:56:24 am
I don't see why mods can't follow that as well.
I haven't said to do not use a common look, but they already had one, more or less. I mean we may have discussed here how to optimize that layout, e.g. what fields to be placed in the new template, etc.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 08, 2012, 07:08:23 am
A thing I and NeonKnight were talking about if the pages about the maps should be only descriptive or also contain aspects of reviews. IMHO, it would be more useful to suggest users specific things that they can try to get the best experience in the map (e.g. saying that a specific map is very good for instantgib mode, or that another one was designed with Elimination mode in mind...), than describing the exact shape of every single platform in it and the location of each item (and let's consider that, using gametype keys, items can change depending from the current gametype). What do you think about that?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 08, 2012, 09:26:16 am
I'm on the "neutral articles" side. I know we aren't Wikipedia, but, for one, opinionated edits have a dangerous tendency to enter into "Fan Myopia (http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanMyopia)" territory, believing that things (opinions, stuff) are more known than they really are. Plus, people shouldn't be obligated to know why things were popular, they should figure that for themselves. Also, in practice, the map might have been made for a mode, but what if it's another mode the one where the map really shines? And even then, everything's still subjective, opinions vary among people.

Plus, opinionated edits tend to make wikis to look more like forums or personal blogs rather than wikis.

Oh, and there's a "Tactics and strategies" section in the pages which should work as the "tips" corner as well.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 09, 2012, 04:34:07 am
To GrosBedo: I noticed you did huge enlargements to the Demos page. Thank you. I haven't had the time to read them with the attention needed, for now. But I noticed this part of the script you mentioned:
"set g_synchronousClients 1;set cl_autoRecordDemo 1;set g_synchronousClients 0"
It looks against what previously stated above:
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Demos#Recording_a_best-quality_demo
where it says that a script like "g_synchronousClients 1;record;g_synchronousClients 0" has no effect (because it turns off synchronousclients immediately).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: grey matter on January 09, 2012, 02:08:27 pm
If I'm not entirely mistaken, you'd have to set g_synchronousClients on the server (the client then just copies the server's value), not the client. At least in ioquake3 the engine will just print a warning, not cancel with an error.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: sago007 on January 09, 2012, 02:12:35 pm
If I'm not entirely mistaken, you'd have to set g_synchronousClients on the server (the client then just copies the server's value), not the client. At least in ioquake3 the engine will just print a warning, not cancel with an error.
Despite the misleading name ("g_" usually means server logic ) this variable is a client variable. Maybe it used to be a server variable a long time ago and the name just stuck.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on January 09, 2012, 02:53:00 pm
@Gig: No it's not in opposition to what was previously stated: it's only a quick workaround to easily record a demo. When you record a demo with g_synchronousClients 1, you will lag, so you can't possibly record a demo while playing. Now if you set it to 0, the engine may refuse your recording (I can't remember the error, but try it, you'll see that sometimes it will refuse to record a demo).

Now with this workaround, you enable g_synchronousClients, then launch the recording, and then toggle it back, so that you can play while recording. Theoretically, this will results in some quirks (like false hits behind walls), but concretely there will be no difference (which is even more true now with delag).

Anyway thank you for pointing me that out because I forgot to explicit that, it's now fixed and I hope that this makes things clearer for the reader.

/EDIT: I also updated the definition of g_synchronousClients in Recording a best-quality demo


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Peter Silie on January 09, 2012, 02:55:16 pm
back to topic: i realy love, what you did with the map section inside the wiki, but it will be hard to describe all items and their locations.
Maybe a hint for the special items (quad, bfg or similar) is enough?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 09, 2012, 04:41:24 pm
@Grosbedo: Okay, so your trick is only meant to workaround the (rare or not? I saw that the engine suggests to enable sync... but are you sure it even refuses to record, sometimes?) case of the engine refusing to start recording cause of the lack of g_synchronousclients.... but it does not record a top quality demo, right? If one really wants to do it, he needs to use the trick of spectating himself from another machine, right?

The section about the "scripts" seems to repeat some infos (e.g. the exporting format variables)... do you think it is possible to do a bit of cleanup? Also, I'd almost remove the second time g_synchrnousclients is explained, what do you think about it? Maybe we could save something from that section and integrate it in the apposite section above.

Also, when mentioning the tip of changing fs_homepath, we could simply link to [[homepath]] to how to do, while advising that changing it means to use a completely different configuration and autodownloaded data folder.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on January 10, 2012, 08:37:50 am
@Gig: yes indeed I did not read the entire page and so we can probably cleanup some parts or link to other articles (I'm not yet very used to the wiki so I don't know all the pages that already exists). I will do a cleanup when Ill have some time.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 11, 2012, 05:38:41 pm
Okay, tell me if you need some help. Anyway now there are some interesting things written there, that may be used to integrate existing ones...

At the moment, I'd like to ask a question to everybody here.
Now we have the "mod" template:
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Template:Mod
which is used inside the pages of the mods (example: (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/ModCompat/Akimbo). Ok. One of the allowed fields is named "status": if you set it to 1, it writes "active", otherwise it writes "defunct". That "defunct" sounds too harsh; I fear it may discourage people from trying the mod (while being no more under development does not mean the mod is not working or not enjoyable!). Do you have any idea for another expression instead of "Defunct"? "Inactive"? "Out of/from development"? "Old"? "No more developed"? We're searching for ideas. Consider template size.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 26, 2012, 04:02:55 pm
@all: any ideas about the "defunct" problem in the post above this one?

@GrosBedo: Hi! Do you think you can have some time to take a look for that polishing?

PS: about server-side demos (even though this is probably more for the "idea pit" section): if I understand correctly, at the moment to record such demos you can only use modified (unofficial) server executables, right? Is that modified code under GPL (it should, being OpenArena in GPL) and available? Where can it be found? Maybe Sago or Fromhell may import such changes directly in the official OpenArena, making serverside demos an official feature.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on January 27, 2012, 07:22:49 am
@all: any ideas about the "defunct" problem in the post above this one?

You can change it to inactive or discontinued, these are terms that are generally used for dead development projects (or look at sourceforge/other opensource repositories for other ideas).

@GrosBedo: Hi! Do you think you can have some time to take a look for that polishing?

PS: about server-side demos (even though this is probably more for the "idea pit" section): if I understand correctly, at the moment to record such demos you can only use modified (unofficial) server executables, right? Is that modified code under GPL (it should, being OpenArena in GPL) and available? Where can it be found? Maybe Sago or Fromhell may import such changes directly in the official OpenArena, making serverside demos an official feature.


Yes, this week-end, I'll have some spare time.

About serverside demos, I don't know the licence but I think it's GPL since it's released as a public patch here by TheDoctor:

http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=3206.msg34546#msg34546

It's not used anymore on ScrewOA servers I think (at least the demos are inaccessible), but it used to work, I tried the demos and it worked wonderfully. I am planning to implement the patch on my servers and see if that works ok, but I'm not really into hacking the game engine so I won't be able to fix big things if it doesn't go well.

Of course, it would be great if the OA devs could implement this feature, but I don't think it will be until the next release, since v0.8.8 will be very soon released and I don't think devs want to delay more. But indeed, this would be great!


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 27, 2012, 07:31:40 am
Of course, not for 0.8.8, but for a later relase.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on January 28, 2012, 03:02:40 am
Just an update about the serverside patch: it's not complete, at the end it misses a few lines:

Code:
*************** void SV_SendClientSnapshot( client_t *cl
*** 634,651 ****
  }
 
  MSG_Init (&msg, msg_buf, sizeof(msg_buf));
  msg.allowoverflow = qtrue;
 
  // NOTE, MRE: all server->client messages now acknowledge
  // let the client know which reliable clientCommands we have received
  MSG_WriteLong( &msg, client->lastClientCommand );
 
  // (re)send any reliable server commands
! SV_UpdateServerCommandsToClient( client, &msg );
 
  // send over all the relevant entityState_t
  // and the playerState_t
! SV_WriteSnapshotToClient( client, &msg );
 
  // Add any download data if the client is downloading
  SV_WriteDownloadToClient( client, &msg );
--- 673,703 ----
  }
 
  MSG_Init (&msg,      msg_buf,      sizeof(msg_buf));
+ MSG_Init (&msg_demo, msg_buf_demo, sizeof(msg_buf_demo));
  msg.allowoverflow = qtrue;
+ msg_demo.allowoverflow = qtrue;
+
+ headerBytes = msg.cursize;//&msg.readcount;
 
  // NOTE, MRE: all server->client messages now acknowledge
  // let the client know which reliable clientCommands we have received
  MSG_WriteLong( &msg, client->lastClientCommand );
 
  // (re)send any reliable server commands
! SV_UpdateServerCommandsToClient( client, &msg, &msg_demo );
 
  // send over all the relevant entityState_t
  // and the playerState_t
! SV_WriteSnapshotToClient( client, &msg, &msg_demo );
 
  // Add any download data if the client is downloading
  SV_WriteDownloadToClient( client, &msg );

I'm trying to compile it and test it, and I'll post the rest on the binaries thread and on the wiki.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on January 28, 2012, 06:32:59 pm
I've updated the wiki about compiling OA for Windows users:

(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/DeveloperFAQ#Windows_user

But I've got a problem with the numbered list, I can't find how to force the numbers to continue at a specific numbers. Gig, do you know of a way to do that, or should I just reformat without the # but by numbering myself the items (but we'll lose the CSS infos)?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 29, 2012, 06:35:22 am
About the location you mentioned DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=DeveloperFAQ&action=historysubmit&diff=11619&oldid=9557]here (http://([b) for the executables, aren't those the old 0.8.1 executables? I think someone said 0.8.5 executables are version 13 executables here (http://files.poulsander.com/~poul19/public_files/oa/dev081/)...

About list numbers: help here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_markup#Lists) is not very much, but here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Lists) there are more detailed infos. The part you are searching for should be this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Lists#Specifying_a_starting_value):

#<li value="9">Amsterdam</li>
#Rotterdam
#The Hague

should give

 9  Amsterdam
 10   Rotterdam
 11   The Hague

Strangely enough, it seems to work on Wikipedia, but not on Wikia: using that text on wikia, the preview produces this strange output:
1.
9. Amsterdam</li>
10. Rotterdam
11. The Hague

I don't know why.
Then, I fear we have to use the more complicated variant:
<ol start="9">
<li>Amsterdam</li>
<li>Rotterdam</li>
<li>The Hague</li>
</ol>
That seems to work on Wikia, too.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on January 29, 2012, 01:06:26 pm
Thank's a lot Gig, the list is now fixed.

About the location you mentioned DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=DeveloperFAQ&action=historysubmit&diff=11619&oldid=9557]here (http://([b) for the executables, aren't those the old 0.8.1 executables? I think someone said 0.8.5 executables are version 13 executables here (http://files.poulsander.com/~poul19/public_files/oa/dev081/)...

Yes I know, but I thought it was too much complicated to put it on the wiki for an introducement to compilation of OA, but I've updated and added this info as a note. However, this note should be updated when v0.8.8 will be released.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on March 27, 2012, 07:31:41 am
Better videos management for Wikia:
http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog%3ASarah_Manley%2F_Product_Update_-_Video


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on May 04, 2012, 03:42:23 pm
Hi!
I was taking a look to DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Game_physics]Game physics (http://([b) and DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Graphic_options#Framerate]Manual/Graphic_options#Framerate (http://([b) (and a little of DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Tweak#Tweaking_online_gaming_parameters]Tweak#Tweaking_online_gaming_parameters (http://([b)).
Com_maxfps default value is 85... while closest framerates emulable via "fixed" physics mode are 83 and 90-91 (being 1000 / pmove_msec = emulated framerate... 1000 / 11 = 90 and 1000 / 12 = 83).
The question is: is there some rounding reason for which 85 and 90 fps are exactly the same, or it isn't possible to emulate 85 fps physics? And if they are not the same... what's better, 85 or 90?

PS: and what's the rounding type when calculating 1000/pmove_mesec? Always round down? 1000/11 is equal to 90,9090909090909090....


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: 7 on May 06, 2012, 07:58:38 am
The engine has an internal clock that gives a pulse every millisecond, so a frame can be rendered every clock pulse (1000 / 1 = 1000 fps), every second pulse (1000 / 2 = 500 fps), every third pulse (1000 / 3 = 333 fps) etc. It's impossible to generate frames in between clock pulses, so you cant run the engine at 700 fps for instance, it's either 1000 fps of 500 fps.

The engine rounds up com_maxfps to the nearest possible value (calculated with 1000 / pmove_msec formula), so setting com_maxfps to 85 produces a real frame rate of 90 fps. You can display the real achieved frame with \cg_drawFPS 1.

You have to always round down when calculating the frames per second (using the 1000 / pmove_msec formula), because the engine can't render fractions of frames, it either renders a full frame or it doesn't render a frame at all.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: sago007 on May 06, 2012, 12:10:07 pm
As I read the code in "qcommon/common.c" the engine does only round the first time to get a fixed frame size. The frame size is calculated as "floor(1000/com_maxfps)". I expect the engine to calculate 1000 frames every 11 seconds if com_maxfps = 85.

In frame rate shown with cg_drawFPS is floored/rounded* to nearest int before being drawn. The displayed value is based on the last 4 frames. It will be calculated as "4000/(11+11+11+11)" (if the last 4 frames took 11 ms to calculate)


* ANSI C demands that the result of an integer division is floored. However rounding is a faster operation, so some early (non-ANSI) C compiles did rounding instead. The lcc compiled used to compile qvm-files does (did?) rounding.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: 7 on May 06, 2012, 04:04:01 pm
As I read the code in "qcommon/common.c" the engine does only round the first time to get a fixed frame size. The frame size is calculated as "floor(1000/com_maxfps)". I expect the engine to calculate 1000 frames every 11 seconds if com_maxfps = 85.

Rounding down an inverse (the result of a 1000 * 1/x type division) has the same effect as rounding up the x before dividing (the bigger the x, the smaller the resulting inverse). In essence the whole com_maxfps range from 84 to 90 will produce an 11 ms rendering time per frame: floor(1000 / 84) = 11 but floor(1000 / 90) = 11 also.

Quote
In frame rate shown with cg_drawFPS is floored/rounded* to nearest int before being drawn. The displayed value is based on the last 4 frames. It will be calculated as "4000/(11+11+11+11)" (if the last 4 frames took 11 ms to calculate)

Agreed, I was quietly assuming a stable frame rate, so the floor((4 * 1000) / (4 * 11)) will produce the same result as floor(1000 / 11) = 90 fps.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on May 06, 2012, 05:14:42 pm
Range from 84 to 90 or more?
In the table here (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Game_physics#Fixed_frame_rate_physics
we can read that
1000/8=125
1000/9=111
1000/10=100
1000/11=90
1000/12=83
What happens to framerate if I set com_maxfps to 91, 92, 98 or 99?

And how to sum up everything for users? Simply something like "due to the way the game works, there are groups of various com_maxfps values that will give you the same actual framerate: as example, any com_maxfps value between 83 and 90 [are we sure?] will make your machine show up to 90 frames-per-second maximum." in the Framerate section of Graphic Options page, or something more precise?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: 7 on May 07, 2012, 02:54:28 am
Let's recap how it works in principle: first the engine calculates how many milliseconds it can spend on rendering a single frame from the com_maxfps value you give it, then, by rendering a frame every x milliseconds (x = calculated in the first step) it produces an actual frame rate.

So if you set com_maxfps to 84, first the engine calculates a 11 ms render time for a single frame. Then the engine starts rendering a frame every 11 ms, which gives you 90 completely rendered frames per second (fps).

What this means for the table is:

com_maxfps ms per frame real fps*
501...100011000
334...5002500
251...3333333 (+ 1/3)
201...2504250
167...2005200
143...1666166 (+ 2/3)
126...1427142 (+ 6/7)
112...1258125
101...1119111 (+ 1/9)
91...10010100
84...901190 (+ 10/11)
77...831283 (+ 1/3)
72...761376 (+ 12/13)
67...711471 (+ 3/7)
63...661566 (+ 2/3)
etc.
* assuming sufficient hardware

You can verify this yourself by setting cg_drawFPS and playing around with com_maxfps values.

edit:
A simple formula to calculate the real fps from a com_maxfps value would be:
Code:
fps = floor(1000 / floor(1000 / com_maxfps))

edit2:
Added the fractional parts of the fps calculation to the table.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on May 07, 2012, 04:24:53 am
Quote
91...100   10   100
84...90   11   90
So, you are saying that com_maxfps 90 is different than com_maxfps 91 (while being the same of com_maxfps 85)...
But then the menu option "fixed framerate 91 Hz" description is WRONG! If it sets pmove_msec to 11, it uses 90 fps physics, while "91" would have meant pmove_msec 10, and thus the physics of framerate 100, not 90.

I can imagine this is a misunderstanding born due to the fact that 1000/11 is equal to 90,9090909090909090 (one would think to round it up to 91... but it had to be floored instead!).... the problem is that now we have this 91 Hz/91 fps referenced here and there, while it is misleading.
I suppose we should search for these references and change them to 90, right? The menu option should be named "fixed framerate 90 Hz", to fit the actual thing, right?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: 7 on May 07, 2012, 04:48:02 am
It's a little more complicated still. :) When the engine produces a frame each 11 ms, it produces 1000/11 = 90 10/11 frames per second exactly, so it really does produce much closer to 91 fps than to 90 fps. The real problem is that the engine (as well with the com_maxfps values as with the cg_drawfps indicator) uses floored values, so we can either confuse the hell out of everyone by being more exact and rounding differently from what the engine does, or be less exact and give players a chance to understand the engine but draw flack for stating inaccuracies... That's one hot potato I'm not going to touch ;)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on May 07, 2012, 05:54:57 am
[...]it produces 1000/11 = 90 10/11 frames per second exactly [...]
Excuse me, what's this "10/11 frames per second" in this sentence?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: 7 on May 07, 2012, 08:27:22 am
A simple elementary school fraction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraction_%28mathematics%29), ten elevenths.
Code:
1000      10
---- = 90 --
 11       11

edit:
I've added the fractional parts to the table in the post above.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: andrewj on May 07, 2012, 10:39:49 am
* ANSI C demands that the result of an integer division is floored. However rounding is a faster operation, so some early (non-ANSI) C compiles did rounding instead. The lcc compiled used to compile qvm-files does (did?) rounding.
To be a bit clearer, ANSI C demands round-toward-zero behavior (-0.3 becomes 0, not -1)

From my pokings around the lcc and Q3 code (like vm_x86.c and asm/ftola), lcc creates an OP_CVFI instruction to convert a float to integer, and the VM uses '_ftol' on Windows (a built-in function which uses the current rounding mode) or on other platforms uses 'qftol0F7F' where 0F7F is the control word for round-toward-zero (i.e. ANSI C) behavior.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on May 10, 2012, 01:14:09 am
It's a little more complicated still. :) When the engine produces a frame each 11 ms, it produces 1000/11 = 90 10/11 frames per second exactly, so it really does produce much closer to 91 fps than to 90 fps. The real problem is that the engine (as well with the com_maxfps values as with the cg_drawfps indicator) uses floored values, so we can either confuse the hell out of everyone by being more exact and rounding differently from what the engine does, or be less exact and give players a chance to understand the engine but draw flack for stating inaccuracies... That's one hot potato I'm not going to touch ;)

Uhm... I'd like to write something anyway. "91 Hz physics" makes pmove_msec 11 (corrected: I initially wrote 8, but it was simply a typo), which is the physics that one usually obtained with com_maxfps between 84 and 90, not 91. It's true that actual framerate of 90,909090 is closer to 91 than to 90, but on-screen rounding writes 90. A com_maxfps value of 91 would cause 100 fps (rendered -and physics, if framerate-dependent-. I don't know if 100 fps physics is better, worse or equal to 90 fps physics.) instead.
Maybe we may simply remove references to 91 Hz from the game (writing 90 instead), and in some notes in the wiki (like "trivia") writing that, although actual framerate technically being closer to 91 fps than 90, the value is rounded down to 90 (floored).

I'd like to know Fromhell's and Sago's thoughts about this.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: 7 on May 11, 2012, 08:20:09 am
A little correction: 91 Hz physics in the menu makes pmove_msec 10. 125 Hz = pmove_msec 8.

I think 100 Hz physics are a little better than 90 10/11 Hz, but you can't make the 125 Hz jumps by a long shot.

You can get a good idea of jump heights for different frame rates by walking up against a low wall, do a few jumps while standing still, switch to different com_maxfps and do a few jumps again, etc. As you look over the wall at the highest point of your jump, the higher over the wall the features that appear from behind it get at a certain com_maxfps, the higher the jumps (logically) must be at that frame rate. I prefer the bridge railing on ps37ctf2 for this because the two health bubbles down below are a good indicator of jump height and if the physics are 125 Hz or better I can jump on top of the railing so that's pretty obvious too.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on May 11, 2012, 02:59:08 pm
Are you saying that 91 hz in menu sets pmove_msec to 10 (100 fps physics), not 11 (90 fps physics)? I will have to check this tomorrow.
This sounds a bit strange, considering that the default com_maxfps value (85) causes 90 10/11 effective fps, not 100... and pmove_msec default value is 11 (trivia: it was 8 in Q3A).

Why using 100 fps physics?

And another thing... does somebody know what the "accurate" physics is more similar to? I know it is not similar to 125 fps physics... but is it more similar to 90, 100 or what?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: 7 on May 11, 2012, 05:12:18 pm
Don't check, you're right. The first sentence in your previous post is wrong so I meant to correct that, but I made a typo myself; 11 is right (the second sentence in my previous post wouldn't make sense otherwise).

I really don't know what com_maxfps setting accurate physics with g_gravitymodifier 1 is most like.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on May 12, 2012, 03:00:26 am
Ah, okay... it was simply due to a typo of mine (I incorrectly typed 8 instead of 11) and then a typo of yours (you typed 10 instead of 11). Then ok, 91 Hz physics in menu sets pmove_msec to 11, emulating default com_maxfps (85, that produces 90,909090 fps).

Then, again, I'd like to know Sago and Fromhell opinions about this.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: sago007 on May 12, 2012, 03:30:30 pm
If I where to make a new mod that did not need to keep backward compatibility I would only have allowed "Accurate".

But that would have signaled mapmakers that they could assume the physics to be constant and one could get tempted to only support one physics setting. The 91/125 Hz options have been included to remind people that all maps must be playable with both com_maxfps 85 and com_maxfps 125 to ensure mod compatibility.

I liked to give them explaining names without referring to framerate. I did not felt bound to say 90, just because the framerate counter rounds incorrectly. Regardless of what it is called I don't think it can be explained in one line to a person not already familiar with Q3A physics.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on May 14, 2012, 04:50:59 pm
Okay guys, I added a "foot note" and a new sub-section in the section about framerate in Graphic options page
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Manual%2FGraphic_options&action=historysubmit&diff=12502&oldid=12436
and some notes in the Game physics page (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Game_physics&action=historysubmit&diff=12497&oldid=12464

... if someone wanna check I didn't did bad errors...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: 7 on May 15, 2012, 06:02:20 am
Good job Gig, as usual ;)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on June 16, 2012, 06:18:39 pm
Hi guys! An IP created this page: "DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Need_music_while_playing%3F]Need music while playing? (http://([b)".... do you think I should simply delete it, or do you think it is possible to get something useful from it?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on June 29, 2012, 02:17:51 am
Hi! Did someone noticed the post above this one?
What should I do?

Anyway, guys... the old Gig will get married tomorrow... so I will not be available at all for some weeks, and also then, I will have much less time for internet things... so I should be back active, but much less active than before, sorry.

In any case, it has been a pleaseure in these years with you.

Fromhell, I will not be able to take care of the wiki in the next weeks, take a look to it. Other guys: please continue expanding, correcting it, but if possible do not completely revolutionize it in the next weeks...  :)

BYE for now!  :)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: 7 on June 29, 2012, 06:32:24 am
Wishing you all the best for tomorrow and your shared future together.

Molto buona fortuna con vostro matrimonio. Tanti auguri che il vostro cammino insieme duri per tutta la vita!


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on June 29, 2012, 07:04:00 am
Thank you! :)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: dbX on June 29, 2012, 07:56:40 am
All the best Gig.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on June 29, 2012, 08:30:10 am
Best wishes for the future, and thanks for all!


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on June 29, 2012, 03:08:40 pm
Thank you all guys!

I did the little I could.

Continue developing, supporting, advertising, documenting... and playing OpenArena, guys!

Goodnight and good fight!
... and good life. :)


It's time to bed... tomorrow will be a loooong day...

See you in some weeks! :)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on June 30, 2012, 04:23:59 pm
Congrats! Best wishes for the future!

Hi guys! An IP created this page: "DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Need_music_while_playing%3F]Need music while playing? (http://([b)".... do you think I should simply delete it, or do you think it is possible to get something useful from it?

It seems Fromhell already took care of the decision and deleted it ;)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Graion Dilach on July 01, 2012, 01:28:10 am
Best wishes, and a huge thumbsup on what you have done. With that personality I'm sure no troubles will come up at all.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Kildall on July 01, 2012, 03:16:21 am
I think wiki needs more info about charachters and manual should tell some information about weapons.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: RMF on July 02, 2012, 05:29:29 pm
Why about characters? Except the looks, they're all identical.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Kildall on July 03, 2012, 10:53:07 am
They're identical, true. But I mean their backgrounds, good example is article about Major.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on July 03, 2012, 04:20:42 pm
This effort will probably only be completely finished with either OA v1.0 or v3 because there are still a lot of changes amongst the models (some are added, some are removed).

A related topic that can gives some guidelines about writing a more full-length story for a few characters: http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=3048.0


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on August 31, 2012, 05:23:58 am
For your information, the new "autoswitch weapons" features introduced with OA 0.8.8 are finally documented in the wiki:
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Controls#Autoswitch_weapons

Bye!  :)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: .Luke on August 31, 2012, 07:02:15 am
I'm glad that's better acknowledged in the Wiki for other people to see now. I was pretty annoyed with auto-switch at first and it took me a while to figure out where the option to disable it in the menu was on my own. The new auto-switch features are pretty nice though, but accidentally walking over a grenade launcher with it on is something I always want to avoid, I stink at using it in any situation. #_# Otherwise I'd be fine with leaving at NEW, because it's pretty snappy for when I'm intentionally running after a new weapon in fights. =P


Title: Autoswitch & best weapons order
Post by: Gig on August 31, 2012, 07:57:51 am
I have not tried yet if the weapons order variable (designed for "better" (3) and "new&better" (4) modes) applies also to "new" mode (2) -in the sense of "do not autoswitch to weapons that are not in the list"-, but probably doesn't.
Luke, I suppose we may ask Sago a such little change for the next OA version, but before that we should be sure it would be the "right" thing to do (maybe adding more options... let's say 5 and 6 "new if in list" and "always if in list" would be better than changing the behaviour of an existing value!).

UPDATE: Now I've tried. As expected, in "always" (1) and "new" (2) cg_autoswitch modes, the switch can be triggered by any weapon, ignoring cg_weaponorder variable. What I did not expect is that in "better" (3) and "new and better" (4) modes, the weapon change is triggered only if both currently used and picked up weapon are listed in cg_weaponorder. If just one the two is not listed, the switch does not occur (I suppose the algorithm has nothing to compare). I'm going update the wiki with this info (update: done).
Considering this, maybe it's not the case to mess too much making changes to the autoswitch code, but what do you think guys? I don't know.
To sum up, at the moment, excluding a weapon from the list does nothing (mode 1 or 2) or prevents from autoswitching from that weapon to any other one and vice versa (mode 3 or 4).

A thing I would suggest anyway to do for the next OA version is to update the default value of cg_weaponorder, putting in weapons 11, 12 and 13 (the three Team Arena weapons are not in the list for unknown reason) - weapon 10 is the hook and I suppose should not be included in the list.
PS: default cg_weaponorder value in 0.8.8 is "/1/2/4/3/6/7/8/9/5/" (meaning gauntlet/machinegun/grenade/shotgun/lightning/rail/plasma/BFG/rocket)... I don't understand why plasma is considered "better" than railgun!
A suppose a weapon order that IMHO may be nice may be /1/2/4/12/3/11/8/6/13/7/5/9/, but of course if you have a better order in mind, please write it (to know the numbers correponding to each weapon, you can look DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Controls#Weapon_numbers]here (http://([b)).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 06, 2012, 10:29:03 am
Luke, are you still there?
Did you notice the "edited" parts of the post above this one? What do you think about it?

I'd like to know also Sago's opinion... (and of course, of any other! :))


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: sago007 on September 06, 2012, 11:16:20 am
I believe that no matter how good an auto change function works it is always better to use manual change of weapons. I tried to do as few changes from the weapon numbering as possible with the exception of the grenade launcher and rocket launcher. I was going to ask for suggestions to the weapon order but for some reason I never got around to it.

The change was implemented in OAX r258. Based on my commit-message I considered both grapple and mine layer as weapons that should not be in the list.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on September 06, 2012, 04:08:31 pm
Why the Mine Layer?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 07, 2012, 06:18:41 am
I agree manual change is probably the best thing (and of course I will continue using 0, as I always did)... but I suppose you changed default from 1 (always) to 2 (new) (while manual is 0) to give a sort o middle-way as default, and this may be good.

I agree grapple shouldn't be in the list. Not completely sure for mines (probably I think would add it, altough in the left part of the list), but I think chaingun and nailgun really should be there.

And, as I said in the post above, I don't know if the current behavior in modes 3 and 4 (if a weapon is not the list, prevent both autoswithing TO and FROM that weapon) is the best, or if would be better to change it to "if a weapon is not in the list, do not autoswitch TO it, but allow autoswitching FROM it".... or one may even add further options to manage this case.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: sago007 on September 07, 2012, 03:37:13 pm
but I suppose you changed default from 1 (always) to 2 (new)
I changed it to 2 because I had forgotten that I had planned to change it to 4 (as mentioned in the oax commit message).

About being in the list of not. If you want to give the weapon a priority then add it to the list. However one thing that I find more important: Is a weapon new, if you already had the weapon but with no ammo? It is quite relevant if the goal is to have the overall best weapon drawn at all time.

I considered the mine layer a special weapon but you could easily argue otherwise.

Something that might give even more value is to have the weapon order considered then changing weapon after "out of ammo" or having a "best weapon"-key.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 09, 2012, 04:01:10 am
Speaking in the terms of words, a "new" wepon is one that you did not reviously had, thus it would not be the case of a weapon you already have (even if without ammo). Of course, the definition may be a little elastic and we may change it, but maybe is it better to keep the behavior more similar to its name?

About the autoswitch in case of out of ammo to use the best weapon order, I suppose it may be implemented, but maybe it may be considered in case of autoswitch modes 3 or 4 only, and work as usual otherwise? Let's consider one might have messed up with his weapons order, and he does not know/care about it because he's not using mode 3 or 4.

A "best weapon" key may be interesting, altough I dont't know how much it would be used.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: .Luke on September 12, 2012, 07:54:50 pm
A "Best Weapon Key" would be interesting, but as with the "better" weapon option, it would still be a mixed bag in use if you're too busy shooting to remember if you already picked up a better weapon than what you're using. Manual is definitely a safer bet, but so long as "better" doesn't involve me switching to the grenade launcher in any case, I'd be happy with it, personally. (It's a great weapon, don't get me wrong, but I'm horrible at using it in a firefight! Mostly just use it to spam a small area crammed with bots. Even then they're still smart enough to evade it, though.)

What I would like is an option to switch to the same weapon as my opponent, since whenever somebody pulls a rocket launcher on me, I'm royally screwed facing them with anything but that weapon, and can never switch fast enough; the same going for Plasma. But meh, I could probably just switch the Rocket Launcher toggle to my click wheel button and be fine with that, since I use Mouse2 for zooming. =P


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 13, 2012, 01:41:20 am
so long as "better" doesn't involve me switching to the grenade launcher in any case, I'd be happy with it, personally.
So, you can edit your DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Controls#Autoswitch_weapons]best weapon order variable (http://([b), to place the grenate launcher on the left side of the list (to give it lower priority than machinegun or gauntlet)... this way, autoswitch modes 3 and 4 should never autoswitch TO it, but would be able to autoswitch FROM it.

At this point, considered also that the wiki now explains how it works and how to setup better list variable, I propose to do not further mess with mode 3 and 4 mechanics. Supposing that experienced players would still prefer using manual switching, I guess Sago precious time may be used for more useful things like fixing other DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Bugs]bugs (http://([b) in the game. We may maybe make the autoswitch in case of out of ammo consider your list if you are in modes 3 or 4....
Anyway, I propose to change the default value of the list, to include the team arena weapons... let's discuss about how that should be.

Quote
What I would like is an option to switch to the same weapon as my opponent, since whenever somebody pulls a rocket launcher on me, I'm royally screwed facing them with anything but that weapon, and can never switch fast enough; the same going for Plasma.
I don't know how that would be applicable/useful. I mean, how to determine who is your opponent, when there are more than one? The GUI shows (in the upper right corner) who is the last one who hit you, right? But requiring to be hit by a rocket to let the system identify your opponent, then pressing the button to switch to the same weapon as him, wait for switching, then fire a rocket and hit him... it's possible you would be dead before this ends. And in the case the "last one who hit you" is not the one with rocket launcher you are facing, but is the third guy, on your back, who is machinegunning at both of you two from a long distance? One may detect the one you are aiming at, instead... but again, if you have more enemies in your sight, are you sure you aim at the right one in the exact moment you press the switch key? And what happens in case you don't have the same weapon as him, or you don't have ammo for it?
Maybe the "switch to my best weapon" key Sago proposed would be easier and more effective.

Instead, I would prefer some "finishing" like adding the variables that control the DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Weapon_bar]weapon bar (http://([b) (cg_weaponbarstyle and cg_alwaysweaponbar) to the menu (OA features some weapon bar styles that can tell you how many ammo you have left for each weapon, but I guess most people do not know that), and allowing co-existence on the screen of the weapon bar and of the text (on the lower left) that informs you about the item you just picked up (maybe by making text and icons a little smaller, if necessary, like OSP mod did, IIRC).



Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: .Luke on September 14, 2012, 02:12:20 pm
Haven't thought about modifying the weapon order, or how slow changing to the opponent's weapon would be. :# I mean, I know the engine identifies who shot you last on the HUD, but didn't think I can easily get hammered by a second rocket before the switch could occur. (Doesn't matter how much armor you have, two direct hit with rockets cream just about anyone. Which is still not overpowered, IMO, HALO makes it so easy with its massive indirect radial damage for rockets.)

And yeah, getting involved in a messy firefight with multiple targets wouldn't help with any of that. A toggle for your best weapon would be more ideal.

Wait, OA's engine has more graphical bars it could use to convey ammo information? I didn't know about that, I think I'll play with it in the console. =P It would be nice to see UI options for it in the menus, and maybe for other things like mouse acceleration too, iirc. (Some Russian player on a German Ded yesterday informed me of that option in the console, and it totally made aiming a heck of a lot easier! I actually feel more competitive now. >:D )


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 15, 2012, 09:10:31 am
I know we are OT by discussing this here... but considering we are talking about it...

I attached here some screenshots showing that maybe we may actually find a way to allow to display both the weapon bar and the name of the item you just picked up.

Here you can see the weapon bar from the OSP Q3 mod... it's vertical, on the left, and similar to some of "our" additional weaponbar styles. As you can see, the name of the item picked up is drawn even if the weapon bar is shown at the same time. It uses smaller fonts than usual.

Then, some screenshot from OpenArena, with two different styles of weaponbar (with all possible weapons loaded -except the grappling hook, that should be taken in account as well-), plus one that shows the normal size and position of the name you just picked up.

I suppose that we may find some way to make the two infos co-exist...
- maybe only in case one enables "always weapon bar"?
- maybe only if with some kinds of weapon bar?
- maybe not always using the smaller fonts, but only when you enable the options that allow to see both things at once? (E.g. if you use "weaponbarstyle 2" AND "always weapon bar", then the HUD will use small fonts for the item picked up. Just an example.).
They are just thoughts, what do you think?



Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: fromhell on September 15, 2012, 06:20:00 pm
OTOT, but your two digit framerates are the strangest thing.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 16, 2012, 03:49:57 am
OTOT, but your two digit framerates are the strangest thing.
It's just that I have some heat problems at the moment (I should re-apply thermal paste on the processor, but I don't have it at the moment), so I set a low com_maxfps value to keep CPU usage (and thus, temperature) low...
If you ask me... and how do you play? Well, at the moment I don't have time to really play the game... and anyway I may open the case or place a fan in front of it (and set higher fps value).

Ps: seeing that you are here... what do you think about the autoswitch and weaponbar things? Of course, your opinion in the most important one... 


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: grey matter on September 16, 2012, 07:34:59 am
It's just that I have some heat problems at the moment (I should re-apply thermal paste on the processor, but I don't have it at the moment), so I set a low com_maxfps value to keep CPU usage (and thus, temperature) low...

Try set com_busyWait 0 (it should be default anyways). This will make framerates a little unstable (i.e. no constant 125fps, rather toggle between 124-126fps), but results in lower overall CPU usage (unless you're running at 666fps or more ;) ).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 16, 2012, 12:21:09 pm
I've read something about com_busywait time ago (maybe in some ioquake3 changelog?)... if you know enough about it, do you think you may write a section about it in (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Graphic_options ?
(This makes things a little more in-topic!) :)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: fromhell on September 16, 2012, 04:18:49 pm
OTOT, but your two digit framerates are the strangest thing.
It's just that I have some heat problems at the moment (I should re-apply thermal paste on the processor, but I don't have it at the moment), so I set a low com_maxfps value to keep CPU usage (and thus, temperature) low...
It'd be your GPU taking the usage hit from the high framerate. Any competent dedicated video card made after 2000 should slip into 3 digit framerates easily especially if it has hardware transform & lighting.

The only way I can get to a native 30fps is to use a Pentium II.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 16, 2012, 11:48:08 pm
The only way I can get to a native 30fps is to use a Pentium II.
I've set com_maxfps to 30 to do tests in these days. This way, CPU utilization goes down to something like 30%... If I set it to 90 or more, it uses 100%. Machine is an AthlonXP 2600+ with a Radeon X1600.

PS: What's your opinion about sutoswitch and weaponbar?

PPS: About the "busywait" thing... I've found this previous thread (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4511.0) mentioning it... and then I've done a very quick test (using another machine):
As Grosbedo guessed in this post (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4511.msg44161#msg44161), it seems it affects only the case where the system reaches the com_maxfps value. In that case, enabling or disabling com_busywait changes a lot the CPU utilization (in the system I have now, it is better when not used, as default). I will check also @home, anyway I guess it's already set to 0, otherwise my "lower com_maxpfs" trick may have been less effective to save CPU utilization...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 17, 2012, 02:12:17 am
Considering the above posts, I've created a section about com_busywait in the wiki:
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Graphic_options#Com_busywait
Please take a look to it and fix it if necessary. I used the very few infos I found around com_busywait, plus the quick test I did above, plus what grey matter said few posts ago.
So, I only ''guessed'' that com_busywait 0 may give some little problem in framerate-dependent physics (because grey matter said it may cause the frame rate be a little less constant)... I have no proofs or reports about that (except maybe this one (http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.games.ioquake3/743)).
I also mentioned it may affect jumps here: (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Game_physics#Frame_rate_dependent_physics


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: grey matter on September 18, 2012, 12:46:01 pm
Seems fine to me (abusing this thread instead of the wiki's talk page now :P ).

com_busyWait switches between the two waiting methods you've described. A busy waiting loop (which should burn 100% CPU just for waiting but will hit the exact right time for the next frame) or a select() call with a timeout (which might be just a little unprecise, but does not burn CPU cycles while waiting).
If your CPU is too slow to reach your com_maxFPS setting then there's no time left until is has to run the next frame and it'll be at 100% utilization anyways, so there are no possible savings from using select().
The granularity of the select() timeout can be too low on some systems, which causes the framerate to have more jitter, since waiting intervals become too long.
The above is exactly what the ioquake3 README says about com_busyWait, and there's not really more to it :)

OA devs might be interested in mitsu's optimized iourt client, which had some improvements for this issue. On the other hand, the improvements on the "fps independant physics" side are going well, so it's not really needed.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 18, 2012, 11:35:47 pm
Considering that having a constant framerate is however advisable with any game physics, do you think I should say "especially for framerate dependent physics", to do not completely leave the other kinds out?

Ps: I suppose talking here has got more visibility than a talk page of our wiki...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on October 02, 2012, 03:36:41 am
For your information, I added infos about "damage modifier" (new 0.8.8 feature) in the wiki.
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Special_game_options#Damage_modifier

PS: what about the things discussed in the previous posts? Sago? Fromhell? Others?
(weaponbar, autoswitch, etc.)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 08, 2013, 01:48:14 pm
I've been reading this article, and I think this needs to be applied to the Wiki:
http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newCS_85.htm

It's about the 7 C's of Communication: information should be Clear, Concise, Concrete, Correct, Coherent, Complete and Courteous. At least the first 5 should be respected for every article. I've tried my hand at this with the DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Player_settings]Player Settings (http://([b) page.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 09, 2013, 01:39:33 am
Neon, about screenshots, I see DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/File:Oa088-statistics-weapons.jpg]here (http://([b) you used PD. But, IIRC, screenshot of a software should follow that software license, so it should probably be licensed as GPLv2, too.

About DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Manual%2FPlayer_settings&diff=13364&oldid=12912]this edit (http://([b), I fell you missed one of the "C"s... the "Complete" one. I'm cosidering to revert that edit.
What about writing some of the completely DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Wikiworks]missing pages (http://([b), instead?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 09, 2013, 05:36:10 am
About the Screenshots, I've forgot to change that, sorry.

About the edit, I had the feeling that the articles sacrificed everything else for completeness. That was a HUGE wall of text (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WallOfText), with a lot of trivial bits getting in the way of how a Manual article should be. Remember that you're writing for an audience, hence, walls of text tend to deviate people's attention to something else.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 10, 2013, 05:49:39 am
What if one would have moved some "extra" infos that page contained to "ref" notes, instead? That would have made the main text lighter, while keeping more infos for who wants them.



Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 10, 2013, 06:18:00 am
That's another alternative, yes.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 10, 2013, 07:29:12 am
I think I will make a try to do a such "try" to that page, when I have some time.  :)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: GrosBedo on January 13, 2013, 08:04:46 am
Good idea Neon_Knight, but I feel that this completeness should also not be lost. The OpenArena wiki is currently the most complete source of information about OpenArena and ioquake3 engine, and I think this should not be lost. Maybe a link to an extra page with "advanced" information about each subject may be provided, as Gig suggested.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 14, 2013, 04:27:19 am
Maybe a link to an extra page with "advanced" information about each subject may be provided, as Gig suggested.
To be precise, I suggested "ref" notes (foot notes1)... anyway maybe in some pages an "advanced" section or sub-page may be applicable. Maybe we may discuss each case before applying big changes.



---Notes---
1That look like this. I want to try applying this to that "Manual/Player settings" page when I have some time.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: sago007 on January 14, 2013, 12:58:49 pm
To be precise, I suggested "ref" notes (foot notes1)... anyway maybe in some pages an "advanced" section or sub-page may be applicable. Maybe we may discuss each case before applying big changes.

Heavy use of notes can also make a text less readable. The reader should not need to be informed that there are more to a given topic because of course there are. A manual have a limited scope compared to technical documentation.

I would prefer a "further reading" in the bottom with relevant references. That way the user can select the topic they have interest in without being annoyed by a subject that have absolutely no relevance to the user in question.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 17, 2013, 12:02:43 pm
Well, it took me some time, but I applied the "foot notes" try to that page.
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Player_settings
What do you think? I think it may work. It was I try I wanted... to try.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 21, 2013, 06:17:50 am
Update:
ESC/ESCAPE menu is now part of the manual:
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/ESC_menu   :) :) :)

Just a question: how to bind it to a different key?
I've found the existing key binding ESCAPE = togglemenu.... but if I try "bind r togglemenu", when I later press "r", I get "Unknown command togglemenu".  ??? ??? ???


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 06, 2013, 07:42:32 am
Hi! I've added some infos about the cross-platform nature of the game in the main page of the wiki. Are they ok?
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=13569&oldid=13506

PS: Does someone have some infos about the ESC menu binding? See post above this one.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 08, 2013, 07:30:12 am
Another thing. I noticed a problem ("connection interrupted") with sv_fps 20 (default value) and com_maxfps > 500 (if the hardware is powerful enough).
So, I did DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Manual%2FGraphic_options&diff=13580&oldid=13536]this update in the wiki (http://([b). Is this ok? Grosbedo, what do you think? Anyone else?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: sago007 on February 08, 2013, 10:50:59 am
Just a question: how to bind it to a different key?
I believe it is hardcoded in the engine.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 09, 2013, 11:22:11 am
Just a question: how to bind it to a different key?
I believe it is hardcoded in the engine.
D'oh!  :-\


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 25, 2013, 01:44:41 am
Just a question: how to bind it to a different key?
I believe it is hardcoded in the engine.
Do you think you may fix that, in a way to allow to bind it to some other key, too? If that would affect all mods and not only baseoa...


@All: Someone did DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Tweak&diff=13650&oldid=13562]this edit (http://([b) in the wiki, saying that r_swapinterval must be set to 0. Searching a little about that variable, I see here (http://joz3d.net/html/q3console.html) they say simply "toggle frame swapping" with default 0, and here they say (http://www.techspot.com/tweaks/quake3/print.shtml) "seta r_swapInterval "x", this is the Quake3 equivalent of vsync. Set it to 1 to enable vsync (recommended). Only set it to 0 when you are benchmarking game performance.".

Anyway, it does not seem that the "sync every frame" option in menu controls this variable.
Can someone give more infos about this stuff? Thank you!


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on March 02, 2013, 03:53:44 am
Does someone have any info about the question in the post above this one (what is r_swapinterval?)?

PS: I've created this page
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Multithreaded_map_compiling
(Multhreading allows to compile maps much faster)
For the moment it talks about Q3Radiant only... can someone add infos for GTKRadiant and NetRadiant?

(Sorry for the part about Q3Radiant being a little long... but a bug in the Q3Radiant editor made things more diffcult, with the need to explain how to workaround it!)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: fromhell on March 02, 2013, 02:31:30 pm
I'd recommend r_swapinterval 0 for more input responsiveness.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on March 03, 2013, 04:30:39 am
I'd recommend r_swapinterval 0 for more input responsiveness.
Thank you.  :) But what is it supposed to control?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on March 08, 2013, 03:23:35 am
Hi guys!
We know that, other than from the official site (the "official" version), there are also third party repositories and "stores" that own copies of OpenArena or modified versions or ports to other platforms. But who knows all of them?

I was thinking that it may be nice to have a page listing them, maybe subdivided into sections for platforms or stores (e.g. Mac OS - Android - Raspberry Pi (Linux/Raspbian))? Obviously, specifying they are third-party managed.

Unlike the DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/LinuxInstall]LinuxInstall (http://([b)[/i] page (by the way, I think that page should be updated), that would not contain specifc installation instructions: it would just mention the existence of that version of the game, provide URLs if available, and few comments about it (e.g. this version requires a little payment; this version include ads; this version has got a modified user interface, etc.). Of course, we should say that the lack of any comment does not mean that it is necessarily free or 100% equal to the official version.

This may be useful also thinking that, for some reason I don't know... some search performed by using the "search" field in the stores' sites seem to do not find those directly, but one has to google to find them.
Examples:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/open-arena/id422263923?mt=12
http://store.raspberrypi.com/projects/openarena

What do you think about this?
I would need some help to determine the best way to organize a such page... ideas? And ideas for its name?
Should it contain "pointed lists"? Tables?



Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on August 10, 2013, 09:10:12 am
Hi guys! This will be my last post for about a week (I'll be totally offline).

Just to tell you I've added a "key features" box in the wiki, through a template:
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Main_Page#Key_features

Feel free to fix (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Template:Key_features, if needed.
Bye, see you in about a week!  :)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on August 27, 2013, 12:16:57 pm
I think a shorter list may go well. There's no real need to spoil of everything the game has to offer. I would start focusing only on things which are accesible through the GUI.

On another note, I was thinking, what about a Map Compatibility list, in the same vein as Mod Compatibility? OFC every map may work with OA, but this would focus on which maps have full support and which are lacking it (i.e. if they're missing textures, sounds, shaders, possibly music, etc) and which others tend to cause problems (modify a game's vital file such as arenas.txt or bots.txt for example). It would also serve us as guides to see which textures/shaders should get the highest priority.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on August 28, 2013, 01:02:15 am
This about map compatibility may seem a nice idea... but the problem is how to maintain a such list.
I can guess maps are much more than mods... (example: how many of DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Quality_maps]these (http://([b) or DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Third_Party_Maps]these (http://([b) have been actually tested with OA 0.8.8?).
Even mod pages are not very well maintained, at the moment...

However, how did you thought to structure a such page? Creating a sub-page for each one would be a monstrous work...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on August 28, 2013, 07:21:29 am
On the contrary, maps are easier to maintain by way of not creating pages exclusively for them. I find separate pages for maps, unless there's an extreme need for it, to be unnecessary, unlike mods whose compatibility is more of an issue for OA.

The only needed fields required are mapname/maplongname, missingtextures, missingsounds, other issues. And that's it.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: fromhell on August 28, 2013, 07:03:03 pm
Some of the Angelyss skin descriptions are written a little creepy.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on August 28, 2013, 07:31:14 pm
Any idea, now that Angelyss is going to change from a Hunter-esque character into a rider for OA3?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: fromhell on August 28, 2013, 08:22:04 pm
Hunter was designed to be "Frazetta-esque" (as in Frank Frazetta and Luis Royo). Angelyss was designed the same way. Having her ride some beast doesn't exactly depart from that :P

Sorceress's role is more of a Mynx-esque... and we really don't need to note the 'esques' in the Wiki for the characters nor do we need to state graphic details like clit rings (which isn't even in the design) because that would trigger some ad servers WHICH IS KIND OF WHY I BROUGHT UP THE CREEPY PARTS

more fiction, less explicit description, this isn't some OC site now....


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on August 28, 2013, 09:22:40 pm
I wasn't defending the creepiness, I'm all for crushing it. It's just that (except some parts which were taken from an older thread I've made) nobody knows the true bio of the characters.

(Inb4 a SHFG (http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys) comes to complain that nobody plays OA for the story and bla bla bla...)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on August 30, 2013, 10:16:14 am
Well, I've opened the DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/MapCompat]MapCompat (http://([b) page. It includes the maplists from Kinjada's article and the 100-map mappack, as starting point. Whoever is willing to cooperate, any help is welcome.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 01, 2013, 04:14:27 am
Considering that "ModCompat" is a redirect to "Mod compatibility", I've moved "MapCompat" to be a redirect to "Map compatibility". Is that ok? I also added category and DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Map_compatibility]a few incoming links to that page (http://([b).

Question: is the "version" field thought for OpenArena version, or for map version? I can guess it's OA version, but I want to be sure.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on September 01, 2013, 04:19:44 am
OA version.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on September 01, 2013, 09:19:37 am
I was also thinking on "Bot chat ideas", but that should be tied to the characters themselves, which haven't yet (as of 0.8.8 ) a definitive personality (aside of looks), and with the advent of OA3, they might be sent to modelling hell...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 05, 2013, 05:23:41 am
About map compatibility, I was thinking... maybe the "missing texture" info should be divided into different cases, to distinguish maps where there are just a few places with missing textures (minor problem, not really affecting gameplay?), and maps where big parts show missing textures (major problem, affecting gameplay?)?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on September 05, 2013, 05:39:44 am
"MT? Much, Few, None", something like that? For example, showing M, F or N in the MT column.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 05, 2013, 06:53:00 am
"MT? Much, Few, None", something like that? For example, showing M, F or N in the MT column.
Maybe one might continue showing just "." (as now) for "none", for recognizing flawless maps more easily.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 05, 2013, 07:56:41 am
I've DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Map_compatibility&diff=14668&oldid=14614]edited the page (http://([b) for using "M", "F" and ".". I also added a "ref" note about missing sounds (could you please confirm I wrote right things?) in the introduction.

About missing sounds... what's the correct way to detect if some of them are missing?
Is it this?
1) launch OpenArena
2) load the map you wish, with no bots (to be sure missing bot sounds do not interfere with the test; about your own model missing sounds, I can guess that using Sarge model should be safe)
3) pull down console and search for yellow "WARNING: using default sound for ...".
IGNORING these 6 lines, that currently -0.8.8- are ALWAYS listed (fixing them before next OA release may be a nice idea):
- sound/items/cl_ammoregen.wav
- sound/weapons/nailgun/wnailmpd.wav
- sound/weapons/vulcan/wvulimpd.wav
- sound/weapons/vulcan/wvulimpl.wav
- sound/weapons/vulcan/wvulimpm.wav
- sound/misc/yousuck.wav
Example: except those above, "Hibernia" map lacks sound/world/fireloud.wav... (note: even stock OA map "oa_shouse" lacks the same file, too!)

One imporant thing to notice is that each sound file warning is shown ONLY ONCE for each time you launch OpenArena. It seems to me that if you load a second map (or also reload the same), those sound warnings previosly shown will not be shown again. This may bring us to think the second map has no missing sound, but in reality it may miss the same sounds that were missing in the map we previously tried. Hence, we should close and launch OpenArena again after each time we find a map with a missing sound (except the 6 sounds of the list above).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on September 05, 2013, 10:42:11 am
Well, yeah, that's one way, since "sndlist" isn't implemented yet, unlike "modellist" and "shaderlist".


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: fromhell on September 05, 2013, 10:43:41 am
s_useOpenAL 0 followed by s_list


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 05, 2013, 11:06:07 am
s_useOpenAL 0 followed by s_list
Interesting. I can guess that the first column is sound "size" and one can understand which sounds are missing due to having 0 size?

Note: you may need snd_restart (or close and restart OpenArena) after setting s_useOpenAL 0.

PS: Similar shortcuts to detemine which shaders or textures are missing? I see some "(DEFAULTED)" lines if I use \shaderlist... but the list is longer than console output history...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: fromhell on September 05, 2013, 08:20:29 pm
There is also imagelist,  which is focused on the textures themselves.


though what i really want is a command that lists models, images and sound files used, then export the used files to a subfolder for 'used resource repacking' which would be useful for making smaller releases.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 06, 2013, 01:40:27 am
About the wiki, another page that may be useful, may be one talking about "arenas.txt and .arena files".
I've searched for some infos about it on the net, but I have not found documentation about it.
Do you have some documentation about that?

Example: in the .arena file file of "aqua" map (aqua arena (http://lvlworld.com/review/id:1472)), they wrote a "recommended" parameter (the number of recommended bots, I can guess)...
I've done some try with my own map (with sv_pure 0), and it looks like it does nothing (or maybe it's me that do not understood what's that supposed to do). Maybe that was just a recommendation for human beings that may have looked at the .arena file?

However, I tried searching for some documentation about .arena files, but I found nothing.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 06, 2013, 06:09:07 am
Another small thing about the wiki: Fromhell, could you please say your opinion about DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Talk:FAQ#About_the_25MB_texture_compatibility_pack]this (http://([b), that that discussion page? Thank you!


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 09, 2013, 07:00:26 am
Hello, people! I've finally added this page to the wiki:

(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Disabling_and_replacing_items

... it was A LOT of time I desired to do it...

Bye!

PS: maybe just a few items are missing in the list (e.g. Domination points), if you wanna to complete it... but I don't think they are so important. I took the list from this post (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4739.msg46566#msg46566), and I partially re-organized it...
Update: it seems "set disable_domination_point 1" does not work. However, no problem, doing that would have been silly.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: grey matter on September 09, 2013, 12:14:35 pm
About the wiki, another page that may be useful, may be one talking about "arenas.txt and .arena files".
I've searched for some infos about it on the net, but I have not found documentation about it.
Do you have some documentation about that?

I'm not aware of any such documentation, so you might need to dig into the (q3_)ui and game code. Mods might provide support for additional keywords (such as "recommended", which I haven't seen used codewise in Q3/OA at all).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on September 09, 2013, 07:10:39 pm
On hindsight, I'm not sure if I would like the use of "disable_" and "replace_". Because the issues with the map are still there, and those are things which will possibly never be reported. Then, after the releases, we have the load of bullshit we have to deal with.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 09, 2013, 11:47:42 pm
On hindsight, I'm not sure if I would like the use of "disable_" and "replace_". Because the issues with the map are still there, and those are things which will possibly never be reported. Then, after the releases, we have the load of bullshit we have to deal with.

Uh? I'm almost still sleeping this morning... Zzzzz... So excuse me...

I have not understood your post... are you talking about a specific map? What's the link between some admin customization capability (similar to the ability of changing weapon respawn times, or to modify gravity, speed and knockback... "powerful" customization features that may however make the map unplayable if used badly), and the comments that arrive on the forum after an OpenArena release?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on September 10, 2013, 04:21:27 am
I was using "the map" as something generic, any map would fit the "the map" statement. About my worries with _replace and disable_, the thing is that, for example, a problem with the Railgun in a space map possibly won't ever be reported because they're already playing a "modified" version of the map.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 10, 2013, 04:37:52 am
Well, nobody forces server admins to actually use the feature. We're just saying that it does exist.
I can guess that only a relatively small number of servers will actually use the feature, even now that it is better documented... people would continue to have more chances to play on a "plain" version of the map than on a "admin-replaced-items" version of it. Of course, I'm just guessing...

By the way, I just added a thing to the tips at the end of the page: (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Disabling_and_replacing_items&diff=14769&oldid=14768


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on September 24, 2013, 03:58:07 am
Hi! It was a long time I wanted a list with links to "app stores" and "ports" in general, to let people know for which other platforms the game is available... and for us, to have an idea about who re-packages and re-publishes the game.

So, I created this page:
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Ports_and_markets

ANY IDEAS? SUGGESTIONS? COMMENTS??????

I have not yet linked it from other pages, so we can easily rename it if necessary.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on October 02, 2013, 06:39:37 am
No comments, guys?  ???


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on October 02, 2013, 06:53:21 am
Ask pelya or gamesboro. :P


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on November 17, 2013, 10:55:57 am
We've talked about the situation with the manuals in the past. So far they have a bunch of problems. They're as complete as possible, and Gig has done an over-excellent work with them. Yet, they are extremely hard to read. Completeness is good, but stops being good when everything else has to be sacrificed in order to achieve it.

I've identified some problems:
  • They have info not related to OA but related to mods for OA/Q3. If the manual is about the base game for players, then such notes IMHO have no place there. They could go to the mod's page, for example.
  • They have a lot of info about the console commands, giving the impression that OA is heavily dependant on the console, which in practice isn't THAT true. Also, most of these mentions are only relevant for server admins.
  • They have mentions to the mapping side. This should be left to the mapping pages, as they have no relation to the game itself except for it's development. But since the manual IS for players, they aren't relevant for this area.
  • The classic problems: walls of text, parabombing, small texts breaking the lecture in the paragraphs...
I've been thinking on a solution to keep the manual's pages on an acceptable reading level and preserving those notes by creating appendixes for those pages. I've started with the DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Weapons]Weapons (http://([b) page, DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Weapons/Appendix]here's the annex (http://([b).

What do you think?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on November 18, 2013, 05:02:17 am
In general, as I said DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Talk:Manual/Weapons#My_edits]in the talk page of "Manual/Weapons" page (http://([b) in other words (please read there, too), I don't think that there is a precise border to say when a player should begin to mess up with console, or should ignore it. Console allows to do thousands of things in this game, and I think we should not scare the user making him think it's something dedicated to server admins only.... using console commands to activate some different game option or to make his weapon show different effects is something normal in this game.
However, I checked at your work, it isn't bad. I did some little fixes to it, but I can guess in general it's okay.  :) But maybe, before appying such huge changes to a page in the future, we may discuss how to organize its "appendix" page. In this case, I'm not completely sure the approach you used for its sub-sections (mod-related, cvars, other) is the best... maybe something more similar to the structure of the main page would have been better? I'm not sure. Also, maybe we may somehow specifiy for a few topics of the main page that it's advisable to check the appendix about it?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on November 18, 2013, 06:32:27 am
I'd restrict the appendixes to the manual pages.

Basically, a manual page is dedicated to a specific subject. It should be focused only on that specific subject, with nothing getting in the way of that specific subject.

Mentions to mods are useless since that stuff isn't present in the base game, regardless of what the people wants. They should be kept to those specific mod's page or, at the very least, be moved to the annexes.

Mentions to mapping are also useless since it isn't related to playing the game but to developing content to it, which is outside of a player manual's scope. Those bits should be moved to the development/mapping pages. (Also, I've realized that modifying the property of any item do mess with the gameplay, so it's safe to say that it enters into the "bad practices" area in the same way a "goto" or "break" statement is a bad practice in regards to programming.)

A player shouldn't also have the need to mess with the console in order to enjoy a game. OA is already "complete" and enjoyable without the need to mess with the game's console. Too many mentions to the console gives the contrary impression, that messing with the console is mandatory in order to enjoy OA, which isn't really the case.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on November 18, 2013, 07:42:10 am
Basically, a manual page is dedicated to a specific subject. It should be focused only on that specific subject, with nothing getting in the way of that specific subject.
Well, in theory, if the subject is "weapons", everything about weapons may fit. I mean, there is no reason to put something about how to change screen resolution (just an example), but mentioning that a player can change the look of his own railgun effect, while talking about the railgun weapon, seems coherent to me... then, if possible it's better to place a link to the page that actually mentions how to change it (e.g. "Manual/Player settings")... but sometimes there is no another page that hosts that specific info, and would have little sense to appositely create a page for that, hence a foot note or something in these new "appendix" pages may fit well.

Quote
Mentions to mods are useless since that stuff isn't present in the base game, regardless of what the people wants. They should be kept to those specific mod's page or, at the very least, be moved to the annexes.
I can guess Appendix page can do the trick (previously made by a parenthesis or foot note...) of briefly mentioning a certain feature does exist in a certain mod, giving a link to the page of the mod (where, of course, the feature can be better explained).
Note: if there is too few of such stuff to create a proper "appendix" page, one can just keep the foot note in the meanwhile. I mean, if I have to create an Appendix page for two or three short notes only, it's better I keep them in the main page. If there are a lot of notes, like in the Weapons page, an Appendix page can be welcome.

Quote
Mentions to mapping are also useless since it isn't related to playing the game but to developing content to it, which is outside of a player manual's scope. Those bits should be moved to the development/mapping pages.
As I told before, the problem is that we don't have a real "mapping course", so sometimes the problem is which "landing" page to choose...
Ideas are welcome.

Quote
(Also, I've realized that modifying the property of any item do mess with the gameplay, so it's safe to say that it enters into the "bad practices" area in the same way a "goto" or "break" statement is a bad practice in regards to programming.)
Uh? I lost a bit with this... are you saying that using the game's customization capabilities to create your own favorite settings (e.g. adjusting gravity level, enabling "vampire mode" or preventing grappling hooks from spawning) is always (or almost always) a bad idea? Uhm... this sounds a little strange to me. This game has been quite customizable since the beginning...

Quote
A player shouldn't also have the need to mess with the console in order to enjoy a game. OA is already "complete" and enjoyable without the need to mess with the game's console. Too many mentions to the console gives the contrary impression, that messing with the console is mandatory in order to enjoy OA, which isn't really the case.
The base game is very enjoyable also without the need to use the console, true. But there are also many cool features which are not available in the UI at all, and many other that are just more comfortable to set through the console. Console isn't evil, and anyway we need to write down console commands somewhere (probably they are too many to have a single page with all commands in it, with completeness and logic order. An "alphabetic full commands list" page like this web page (http://www.joz3d.net/html/q3console.html) can be very useful in some situations, but really inadequate in others. This is also one of the reasons maybe we may think again about the best section organization of Manual/Weapons/Appendix page: maybe a "logical" separation may be better than a "category" separation?). What do you propose, splitting each manual page in "standard" and "advanced" sub-pages?  ???


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: fromhell on November 18, 2013, 09:54:27 am
A manual doesn't need complete and elaborate explanations for every little section. This is a player's manual; not a man page.   Information overload can be had elsewhere (i.e. advanced sections)


More "This gun shoots bullets in rapid succession", less "This gun is a hitscan weapon that deals 15 damage and fires at a rate of 0.1 seconds"


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on November 22, 2013, 01:49:31 am
A manual doesn't need complete and elaborate explanations for every little section. This is a player's manual; not a man page.   Information overload can be had elsewhere (i.e. advanced sections)
"Man page" does not mean "manual"? So the phrase says something like "A manual is not a manual"?  ??? ??? :-\ I can guess with "man page" you meant "an advanced manual", or something similar...

Okay... we may try to divide something in "for beginners" and "advanced", somewhow... But also disassembling informations, placing them in different places with no logical order, may not always be a good idea. That's the reason I suggested re-organizing the sections in Weapons/Appendix page to follow a logical order similar to its main page, instead of dividing into "anything mod-related", "console commands in random order" and "other" sections; I'll try to do that in the next week. Note: of course, also letting stuff totally undocumented would not be a good idea, too: "advanced manual" stuff is however needed somewhere.

DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Weapons/Appendix]Manual/Weapons/Appendix (http://([b) page "saved" something like 11KB from its main page, so I can guess it can actually make its main page faster to read, so it can have sense. Maybe we may even think about moving the "weapons comparison table" from the main Weapons page to the Appendix, if you wish...

But DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/ESC_menu/Appendix]Manual/ESC menu/Appendix (http://([b) instead, "saved" only 708 bytes from its main page... it seems to me it does not justify the need for a separate page: DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Manual%2FESC_menu&diff=15137&oldid=13504]looking at the changes it did in main page (http://([b), it seems to me those few, short infos may have continued to live were they were without adversely affect the ease of reading of the page. I propose to UNDO those changes, what do you think?
"If it's a console command, it automatically goes to the appendix in any case"[1] does not sound very smart, to me. I think if an Appendix page is too short, it's better to keep its stuff in the main page (foot notes may help)... although it's not easy so say a precise limit... 3/4 KB minimum? I don't know, I prefer good sense over a strict rule.

About DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Player_settings/Appendix]Manual/Player settings/Appendix (http://([b), instead, for the moment I only gave a very quick look to it... but however I see that it "saved" something like 8K bytes from its main page, so I can guess it's worth of existing as a separate page.

PS: This "Appendix" scheme, while useful for some pages, is not applicable to some other pages, such as DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Graphic_options]Manual/Graphic options (http://([b): if you think it's necessary, we may try to re-arrange the page to follow some more logical or importance order (or splitting into "commonly used settings"/"other settings" or "HUD-related settings"/"world-related settings" subsections or subpages?).... but separing console commands from the sections where we explain their effects and option names in the GUI (if available) would be a mess.

However, these are works which require time and in this period I have very little.


[1] Nobody actually told these exact words, I know... but that's the feeling "ESC menu Appendix" page gave me.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Suicizer on November 22, 2013, 05:10:47 pm
A manual doesn't need complete and elaborate explanations for every little section. This is a player's manual; not a man page.   Information overload can be had elsewhere (i.e. advanced sections)

More "This gun shoots bullets in rapid succession", less "This gun is a hitscan weapon that deals 15 damage and fires at a rate of 0.1 seconds"


Keep in mind a manual should not state the obvious, rather the informative. That a weapon would be succesfull to shoot rapidly is quite senseless to know if you've started OA, took the MG for example and hitted the fire button. To know it fires 0,1 bullet per second would be more useful to know as most people won't take the time to check that and actually count each shot per second.

You could also use a "slidebar" (I don't know how it's called specificly but  I mean a piece of context which only appear on the same page when clicking on a link) to hide more advanced information.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on November 22, 2013, 07:14:03 pm
But there's a huge difference between it and mentions to mods (which have no true relation to OA other than being external modifications) and mapping (which in a manual oriented towards players, not developers, have no relevance). That kind of info isn't needed in a player-oriented manual.

Oh, another error I've found in some places: biased/subjective information (the most common being "X is nice") makes the user manual to look more like a personal page rather than a wiki. That should be avoided.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Suicizer on November 23, 2013, 04:31:24 am
But there's a huge difference between it and mentions to mods (which have no true relation to OA other than being external modifications) and mapping (which in a manual oriented towards players, not developers, have no relevance). That kind of info isn't needed in a player-oriented manual.

Oh, another error I've found in some places: biased/subjective information (the most common being "X is nice") makes the user manual to look more like a personal page rather than a wiki. That should be avoided.

Screw mods, they can make their own page. After all, ID Software aren't creating the wiki for OA are they?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: grey matter on November 24, 2013, 08:15:06 am
A manual doesn't need complete and elaborate explanations for every little section. This is a player's manual; not a man page.   Information overload can be had elsewhere (i.e. advanced sections)
"Man page" does not mean "manual"? So the phrase says something like "A manual is not a manual"?  ??? ??? :-\ I can guess with "man page" you meant "an advanced manual", or something similar...
At least with Unix, the man pages are quite spot-on, e.g. "man ifconfig" does not explain how (insert protocol here) networking works, just how ifconfig works. If you don't know when to use a tool it won't help you to know how you'd use it.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on November 25, 2013, 02:44:42 am
A manual doesn't need complete and elaborate explanations for every little section. This is a player's manual; not a man page.   Information overload can be had elsewhere (i.e. advanced sections)
"Man page" does not mean "manual"? So the phrase says something like "A manual is not a manual"?  ??? ??? :-\ I can guess with "man page" you meant "an advanced manual", or something similar...
At least with Unix, the man pages are quite spot-on, e.g. "man ifconfig" does not explain how (insert protocol here) networking works, just how ifconfig works. If you don't know when to use a tool it won't help you to know how you'd use it.
But if you need, general networking manuals do exist. This is the only manual about OA....
Side note: some OS "helps" that just mention allowed parameters without even spending ten words to briefly mention what the command does in general make me get angry.

PS: Nobody yet told me if I can re-unite the "ESC menu appendix" with its main page, due to that appendix page being too small to have sense as an independent page (IMHO!).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on November 25, 2013, 05:25:59 am
A general appendix, then? There's a reason of why books have such section.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on November 25, 2013, 07:09:00 am
You could also use a "slidebar" (I don't know how it's called specificly but  I mean a piece of context which only appear on the same page when clicking on a link) to hide more advanced information.
In wikipedia, there are templates to make "boxes" that show only a title, that user can expand/collapse at willl (here: Template:Hidden on en.wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Hidden))... Years ago, I tried to import it into our wiki, but I did not succeed... however I later started using "foot notes" for extra notes ("ref"s), but now it looks like someone wants something more drastic...

A general appendix, then? There's a reason of why books have such section.
I fear this would not be easy to apply. A wiki is not a book... I'm trying to imagine how to manage a such thing, but I don't see a practical way.  :-\ Maybe a page with all OA console commands may be a sort of one of those appendix, but a page with all console commands would not fit all the needs... we still would need mentioning the commands also in the pages where you talk about the features which use them.

However, there are some pages where a page-specific appendix ("Manual/Page/Appendix") like you did for Weapons may be worth of existing, for the sake of making reading the main page easier (maybe the appendix division in sub-sections may use a more "logic" than "category" criterion, but I already said this and I have not yet had the time to try to apply it to that appendix page)... but not all manual pages require an appendix, IMHO (and, except real size/readability problems, there is nothing wrong in mentioning the console command which controls a certain feature in the same page where you explain that feature... IMHO). About the "ESC menu" page, I still don't see the reason for DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Manual%2FESC_menu&diff=15137&oldid=13504]this edit (http://([b), which created DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/ESC_menu/Appendix?oldid=15138]a very small appendix page (http://([b).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on November 25, 2013, 07:55:15 am
Such drastic measures wouldn't be needed if the pages weren't bloated with unnecessary data which makes those pages hard to read and can be placed somewhere else.

If the menu already allows something to be done, the only necessary data is the menu option itself (NOT the console command) and what changes it does to the game (without even mentioning mods or other console commands as well). That's it. Move on. Remember the K.I.S.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle) principle.

And even in the cases where something can be done console-only, shouldn't be better if the manual (not the wiki) doesn't spoil everything the game has to offer? No game manual ever has done that; I don't see why OA should.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on November 25, 2013, 08:00:09 am
But what about freedom of choice? People have to know they have alternatives, to be allowed to use them.

However, some pages actually have some stuff that has sense to be moved to a separate page, but the "ESC menu" one is not one of them, IMHO...

Reading just one extra line of text and learning that I can write "/callvote map wrackdm17" in a quarter of the time it would take to do it by using the ESC menu sounds useful, to me.

PS: "to spoil" (like in "spoiler") may be related with "reviews" and "plots". It seems to me it has nothing in common with "manuals"... I expect a manual to tell me what I can do and how I can do it... If I want a "spoiler-free review", I will search for a "review" in the first place... Maybe I am missing something...  ???


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on November 25, 2013, 08:51:21 am
Just a note: that "someone" word I used a few posts above had no negative intention, it was just to say "some users".

You know, after re-reading something, one may realize he wrote something that may be misinterpreted...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on November 25, 2013, 10:43:53 am
But what about freedom of choice? People have to know they have alternatives, to be allowed to use them.
Reading just one extra line of text and learning that I can write "/callvote map wrackdm17" in a quarter of the time it would take to do it by using the ESC menu sounds useful, to me.
They can (and should) find them in other pages on the Wiki. Manuals should have basic info.

However, some pages actually have some stuff that has sense to be moved to a separate page, but the "ESC menu" one is not one of them, IMHO...
Again, the stuff moved to the Appendexes can be located somewhere else on the Wiki.

PS: "to spoil" (like in "spoiler") may be related with "reviews" and "plots". It seems to me it has nothing in common with "manuals"... I expect a manual to tell me what I can do and how I can do it... If I want a "spoiler-free review", I will search for a "review" in the first place... Maybe I am missing something...  ???
Yes, by way of being a manual, telling the player of all the things you can do in the game leaves him/her with the impression that there's no need to play the game to know all the things which can be done on it. And, from my humble point of view, this is very bad.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: fromhell on November 25, 2013, 12:17:32 pm
Quake III Arena provides a nice example. They have a pretty manual that's exceptionally light on the technobabble, and they have a separate readme document elaborating on many settings and commands (especially on how to use bots to advantage in team games)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 17, 2013, 02:27:07 pm
I'm collecting links in order to create OA's own mapping manual. Right now I'm storing them in this page: (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/User:PumpkinKnight/OA_mapping_tutorial_notes_and_misc

The content table for that page also holds a possible index. Is it OK or should I go deeper in the division of topics?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Suicizer on December 17, 2013, 02:49:19 pm
I'm collecting links in order to create OA's own mapping manual. Right now I'm storing them in this page: (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/User:PumpkinKnight/OA_mapping_tutorial_notes_and_misc

The content table for that page also holds a possible index. Is it OK or should I go deeper in the division of topics?

Too bad that the tutorials of wemakemaps.com are archived. Their screenshots aren't loading anymore because of that.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 17, 2013, 03:45:44 pm
The images are stored in the archive but not loaded. But yeah, such a shame.

EDIT: Found links with the images! Too bad that one or two of them are still missing.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on December 18, 2013, 12:51:36 am
What a huge work... At at first look, it does seem good.  :)
Maybe some more stuff about Q3Radiant may fit? (Just a question).

About "Mapping Manual" (page name shown in links), I would suggest "Mapping manual" instead.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on December 18, 2013, 08:27:47 am
If you are going to write down an introductive page about shaders, maybe you may re-use (re-organizing and correcting where needed, of course! Feel free to use under GPLv2+ and CC-BY-SA licenses! :)) this forum post (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4849.msg48718#msg48718) where I summed up what I did know about shaders, to explain them to a new user. I suppse a page explaining what a shader is and basic/important things to know when manipulating them could be useful.

Maybe you may find something useful in that post.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 18, 2013, 11:20:52 am
I've figured out that there are many pages in the wiki which could work as the manual pages themselves.

(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_information_for_special_gametypes could be Mapping manual/Gametype support
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Visibility_and_hint_brushes could be Mapping manual/Hint brushes
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Bot_play could be Mapping manual/Bot play


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on December 19, 2013, 04:38:24 am
If/When you will rename/move those pages, remember to:
- Keep the original pages as "redirects" to the new pages (to preserve compatibility with old incoming links)
or
- Use the "WhatLinksHere" tool to check all incoming links to the old page, and fix all those links in those "source" pages (example: (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Mapping_information_for_special_gametypes)
or
- Both the two above.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 19, 2013, 07:12:17 am
I'll first design the pages themselves. After that, I'll decide what to do with that info.

By now DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/User:PumpkinKnight/OA_mapping_tutorial_notes_and_misc]I've just sent the info and links from those pages to the Sandbox subpages (http://([b). That way I'll be able to focus on one section at a time.

This is my first time doing a manual, so expect all kind of errors.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 19, 2013, 03:28:10 pm
I've started the Pre-mapping stage page:
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/User:PumpkinKnight/Sandbox/Pre-mapping_stage

How well I'm doing?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on December 20, 2013, 02:28:17 am
It looks like a good start, IMHO! Congrats!  :)

A few suggestions:

- Maybe you may use some Italic or Bold to stress some words about some important things at least the first time you mention them (e.g.: core gameplay, map gameplay, shaders).

- When talking about r_speeds, maybe you may mention the fact that if one adds entities (weapons, powerups, etc.) in a second time, the number of polygons shown will further grow up then.

- It's not clear what it is meant with "building with visibility blocking". Of course, later pages of the manual should explain this better... but at this step, a beginner may not yet know what these words mean: maybe you may shortly explain (even using a foot note if you prefer).

- I suppose you may place foot notes in their usual "Notes" section... while leaving the rest of "bibliography" in the current "Further references" sections (you can rename it if needed).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 20, 2013, 02:31:20 am
I still have to add the rest of the info of the sources. It seems that some stuff will require a second page.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Suicizer on December 20, 2013, 10:52:51 am
Looks quite good to me.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 23, 2013, 05:15:55 am
At first I wanted to finish what I've started, but considering the urgences, I've figured out that this page was extremely needed. So I've started it.

(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/User:PumpkinKnight/Sandbox/Optimization_and_troubleshooting


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on December 23, 2013, 05:23:45 am
Maybe one may better explain what is meant with "brush which isn't really part of the level".  ;)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 23, 2013, 07:04:19 am
Here's the first "finished" page: the Glossary of terms. It's an adaptation of SPoG's q3map2 explanation, but contains a lot of used mapping terms. And, OFC, it's expansible.

(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/User:PumpkinKnight/Sandbox/Appendix:_Glossary_of_terms

Maybe one may better explain what is meant with "brush which isn't really part of the level".  ;)
Oh, my bad. I meant "entity which is placed outsde of the level". They can cause leaks too.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on December 23, 2013, 10:52:21 am
Wasn't it about marking brushes "detail"? I thought that phrase was about things like decorations...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 23, 2013, 01:26:13 pm
Oh, no, that comes later.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 25, 2013, 09:14:47 am
Finished the Glossary and started with the Hint brushes tutorial. I've used SPoG's q3map2 explanation of the VIS stage as a starting point. Sadly, the introduction was larger than I wished. Is there something I can do in order to reduce the amount of text?

(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/User:PumpkinKnight/Sandbox/Hint_brushes


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on December 27, 2013, 03:59:51 am
You know, synthesis is not my best. In general, I prefer to explain istead of cutting off. However, next week I will give a deeper read to that page. Bye for now.

Gig from cell phone.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on December 28, 2013, 08:08:25 am
By clearing and sorting up stuff in the DO NOT LINK (http://([b)) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/DeveloperFAQ]DeveloperFAQ[/url][/b] and DO NOT LINK (http://([b)) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/GoodPractices]Good Practices[/url][/b] pages, which are important for the development of the game, I've figured out that the content of both pages can be fused into one, to keep not only the recommended stuff but also the frequently asked questions in one place.

What do you think about this?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on December 29, 2013, 12:52:08 pm
I have to give a better read to them before I can say something. But in general, I can guess that the current GP page (complimentary with NOTTODO) may be useful to be kept.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 01, 2014, 08:33:02 am
As my first doing in 2014 for OA, I've started the Bot play page. It's going to be an overhaul of the current Bot play page.

(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/User:PumpkinKnight/Sandbox/Bot_play


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 02, 2014, 09:55:50 am
I did a few integrations/adds to it. Take a look if they are ok.  :)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 02, 2014, 10:14:24 am
Took a look. They're pretty OK.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 07, 2014, 03:33:39 am
A question about clusterportals: the guide says that they have to do not be crossed by trigger_push (accelerator pads/bouce pads) trajectories.
I'm not sure, but I can guess this only means that cluster portals have to do not be in the middle between the trigger_push and its target_position (or info_notnull), which is placed at the top of the jump.... but then the jump arc may continue longer while descending (passing cluster portals without breaking them). Do I guess right? If this is right, it should be said in the page.

And any info about target_push and clusterportals? Target_push is an alternate way to create jump pads, but is not client side predicted and I don't know how much actually used.


Title: Map compatibility
Post by: Gig on January 10, 2014, 01:24:14 am
NK, some things I want to ask you about the DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Map_compatibility]Map compatibilty (http://([b) page.
1) Now you set a green background for maps which have no compatibilty issues. It's very useful, but maybe adding a column where to show an image may have been a bit simpler for newcomers which would like to edit the page? I don't know. It's just a question.
2) Maybe we should add a note to explain in which cases we can consider a map with no compatibility issues (e.g. missing .arena file should be mentioned in "other notes" column, but does not affect map compatibility), hence ok for be marked "green".
3) There are various cases of notes such as "Uses some textures already included in OpenArena. May cause conflict.", hence:
3.1) Maybe we should add some notes to explain how to do this test?
3.2) Maybe it would be better to start with "Contains ..." word, instead of "Uses ..."? "Uses some textures already in OpenArena" may seem a normal thing. "Contains", instead, may suggest more the possible conflict...
3.3) If the conflict is caused by those textures (or files in general, such as the bfg hum sound in via_arena and q3_via_arena maps), the two sentences may be merged into one "... included in OpenArena: may cause conflict." To be clear it's referring to the same thing, and not two different things.
3.4) Maybe that "may cause conflict" is too general? Maybe something like "..., hence may override those from OA" or "..., hence those from this map may be shown also in other maps, in the place of those from stock OA".
3.5) If this situation is so common, maybe we may even add a specific column for them... hence, just explaining the thing in a "legend" at the top of the page, and then simply specifying a character for each map (e.g. "T" for textures, "S" for sounds, "B" for both...).
4) What about a try enabling the borders between fields of the table?

PS: Did you read my previous post, just above this one?
PPS: Did you read DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/User_talk:PumpkinKnight/Sandbox/Hint_brushes]this question about hint brushes page (http://([b)?
PPPS: It would be nice to also review OSP maps (http://ws.q3df.org/maps/?map=osp&x=0&y=0) (such as OSPCA1 (http://ws.q3df.org/map/ospca1/), pupular Clan Arena -Elimination- map back to those days).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 10, 2014, 04:34:48 am
1) Now you set a green background for maps which have no compatibilty issues. It's very useful, but maybe adding a column where to show an image may have been a bit simpler for newcomers which would like to edit the page? I don't know. It's just a question.
I don't want to clutter the list. Besides, it was a recommendation of Tig, the admin of LvL, I never thought about that.

2) Maybe we should add a note to explain in which cases we can consider a map with no compatibility issues (e.g. missing .arena file should be mentioned in "other notes" column, but does not affect map compatibility), hence ok for be marked "green".
Well, add it.

3) There are various cases of notes such as "Uses some textures already included in OpenArena. May cause conflict.", hence:
3.1) Maybe we should add some notes to explain how to do this test?
Not a bad idea, I guess.

3.2) Maybe it would be better to start with "Contains ..." word, instead of "Uses ..."? "Uses some textures already in OpenArena" may seem a normal thing. "Contains", instead, may suggest more the possible conflict...
3.3) If the conflict is caused by those textures (or files in general, such as the bfg hum sound in via_arena and q3_via_arena maps), the two sentences may be merged into one "... included in OpenArena: may cause conflict." To be clear it's referring to the same thing, and not two different things.
Already done.

3.4) Maybe that "may cause conflict" is too general? Maybe something like "..., hence may override those from OA" or "..., hence those from this map may be shown also in other maps, in the place of those from stock OA".
"May cause override" sounds more appropiate and straight to the point. There's no need for more text.

3.5) If this situation is so common, maybe we may even add a specific column for them... hence, just explaining the thing in a "legend" at the top of the page, and then simply specifying a character for each map (e.g. "T" for textures, "S" for sounds, "B" for both...).
Like I said above, I don't want to clutter the list.

4) What about a try enabling the borders between fields of the table?
I haven't remembered how to do that.

PS: Did you read my previous post, just above this one?
Later.

PPS: Did you read DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/User_talk:PumpkinKnight/Sandbox/Hint_brushes]this question about hint brushes page (http://([b)?
Already done.

PPPS: It would be nice to also review OSP maps (http://ws.q3df.org/maps/?map=osp&x=0&y=0) (such as OSPCA1 (http://ws.q3df.org/map/ospca1/), pupular Clan Arena -Elimination- map back to those days).
For me these count as simple FFA/CTF maps so I have no problem with them.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 10, 2014, 05:04:10 am
1) Now you set a green background for maps which have no compatibilty issues. It's very useful, but maybe adding a column where to show an image may have been a bit simpler for newcomers which would like to edit the page? I don't know. It's just a question.
I don't want to clutter the list. Besides, it was a recommendation of Tig, the admin of LvL, I never thought about that.
Okay, then let's keep the green.  ;)

Quote
2) Maybe we should add a note to explain in which cases we can consider a map with no compatibility issues (e.g. missing .arena file should be mentioned in "other notes" column, but does not affect map compatibility), hence ok for be marked "green".
Well, add it.
Considering you set which maps are "green" up to now, what are your criteria?

Quote
3) There are various cases of notes such as "Uses some textures already included in OpenArena. May cause conflict.", hence:
3.1) Maybe we should add some notes to explain how to do this test?
Not a bad idea, I guess.
Could you please do that? You know, I fear I would end up using too many words! Otherwise, I will try myself...

Quote
3.2) Maybe it would be better to start with "Contains ..." word, instead of "Uses ..."? "Uses some textures already in OpenArena" may seem a normal thing. "Contains", instead, may suggest more the possible conflict...
3.3) If the conflict is caused by those textures (or files in general, such as the bfg hum sound in via_arena and q3_via_arena maps), the two sentences may be merged into one "... included in OpenArena: may cause conflict." To be clear it's referring to the same thing, and not two different things.
Already done.
Uh? Are you sure? Now I read "Contains some assets already included in OpenArena. May cause override.", with a "dot" in the middle (still two different sentences).  :-\

Quote
3.4) Maybe that "may cause conflict" is too general? Maybe something like "..., hence may override those from OA" or "..., hence those from this map may be shown also in other maps, in the place of those from stock OA".
"May cause override" sounds more appropiate and straight to the point. There's no need for more text.
Good.

Quote
3.5) If this situation is so common, maybe we may even add a specific column for them... hence, just explaining the thing in a "legend" at the top of the page, and then simply specifying a character for each map (e.g. "T" for textures, "S" for sounds, "B" for both...).
Like I said above, I don't want to clutter the list.
Then, you did the right thing now using the general "Assets" word.  :)

Quote
4) What about a try enabling the borders between fields of the table?
I haven't remembered how to do that.
Uhm... I somehow managed to make it appear DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Map_compatibility&diff=15576&oldid=15573]this way (http://([b), although I'm not sure about how to set its color, and if there is some better way to do it...
Quote
PS: Did you read my previous post, just above this one?
Later.
Waiting for reply...  :)

Quote
PPS: Did you read DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/User_talk:PumpkinKnight/Sandbox/Hint_brushes]this question about hint brushes page (http://([b)?
Already done.
Thank you!  ;)
Quote
PPPS: It would be nice to also review OSP maps (http://ws.q3df.org/maps/?map=osp&x=0&y=0) (such as OSPCA1 (http://ws.q3df.org/map/ospca1/), pupular Clan Arena -Elimination- map back to those days).
For me these count as simple FFA/CTF maps so I have no problem with them.
I meant "I have not much time for that... if you wish to do it when you will have some time, that would be appreciated..."   ;D ;D ;D

UPDATE: I applied some changes to the "legend" of that page. Take a look.  ;)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 10, 2014, 06:57:08 am
Done. Also cleared up a bit the part before the maplist itself.

With these tests I came to some conclusions:
- Most of the missing textures belong to the mapobjects. Texturing them may make a lot of maps compatible.
- Most of the maps with the overriding assets use Evillair's textures, specifically the evil6_* and evil8_* packs. For future OA versions, these packs may be renamed in the official package to oa_evil6 and oa_evil8, so not to mess with the current maps which uses those assets.
- There was at least one instance of arenas.txt and one of common.shader (!). You can see where this leads...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 10, 2014, 07:14:05 am
- Most of the maps with the overriding assets use Evillair's textures, specifically the evil6_* and evil8_* packs. For future OA versions, these packs may be renamed in the official package to oa_evil6 and oa_evil8, so not to mess with the current maps which uses those assets.
- Uhm... doing that would break compatibilty with existing third-party OA maps designed for 0.8.x: then, those maps would require to get those textures elsewere (an oa-oa compatibility pack?), or we would need to keep both copies of them, causing pk3 files to be somehow bigger. I'm not sure about the best option.
Probably, such "commonly used" texture folder names should have never been used directly in OA... but now it's late... PS: I also discouraged usage of such names also for OACMP, but at the moment, I fear something is still there.

UPDATE: However, do you think files with the same name in the evil_* folders from OA and from third-party maps look exactly the same, or something differs? In the first case, even an override would change nothing for the final user...

Quote
- There was at least one instance of arenas.txt and one of common.shader (!). You can see where this leads...
Maybe we should use "bold" in the lines mentiong such problems. They are major compatibilty issues.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 10, 2014, 07:25:58 am
There were some modifications done to evillair shaders on the official OA packages. This is something I've noticed with the 0.8.5 version of am_underworks2, I suppose some corrections were made for 0.8.8 as the problem hasn't arised since then. IMHO these textures and shaders should have been included as they were.

Something else I've also noticed, BTW: I have been reviewing very recent Q3 maps. Aside of the poor performance on lower-end machines (I've been doing tests with my netbook, some maps hit 6 FPS at best, this is something we should avoid for OA3), I've noticed that the author of those maps placed the textures he used in a separate folder, so not to clash with the original packages. He used evillair textures but renamed them and included them in it's own folder (named after the map) instead. That's a very interesting practice I wasn't aware of.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 10, 2014, 09:18:56 am
Oh, and a last conclusion: by taking a look at these maps, I'm really glad that we're getting aside of the overrated serious/grim/dark/brown/satanic thematic Q3 did. Man, those maps are really boring, visually speaking. OA maps are pretty colorful in comparison.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 10, 2014, 09:42:34 am
I've noticed that the author of those maps placed the textures he used in a separate folder, so not to clash with the original packages. He used evillair textures but renamed them and included them in it's own folder (named after the map) instead. That's a very interesting practice I wasn't aware of.
We should use similar techniques each time we will include new (imported?) textures in baseoa for new baseoa maps. If possible, we should do something similar also in OACMP packs.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 11, 2014, 10:39:39 am
I've noticed that we can also improve map compatibility by creating replacement sounds, which are way fewer than the textures/shaders to be replaced. There are many maps which have no missing textures/shaders but have missing sounds, and as a result, the hit sound (the new default sound for missing sounds) is played, confusing the players themselves when it comes to playing these maps.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 12, 2014, 06:21:20 am
Are you sure? When I added water sounds to udestruction map, I noticed that a missing sound caused the hit beep sound to be played, in q3a... but in oa it simply caused to hear nothing.
Things to notice: I may have done something wrong at that time, and in my case the sound was used for an infinite loop.

Could you please do some more testing?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 12, 2014, 07:36:15 am
Yes, I've been hearing it in every map I've tested for Map Compatibility. And there are many (yesterday I've finished the letter K)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 13, 2014, 03:12:13 am
Yes, I've been hearing it in every map I've tested for Map Compatibility. And there are many (yesterday I've finished the letter K)
D'oh! Then, I'm going to remove that "Missing sounds are usually not a major problem." phrase from the legend. I wrote that because I thought that in OA, unlike Q3A, the default sound was a silence instead of a beep...

Considering that now the "map compatibility legend" is shared between more pages, I'm going to move it to a template.



Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 13, 2014, 07:13:00 am
Okay, "legend" is in a template now.

By the way, could you please check the note I added DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Template%3AMapCompat_legend&diff=15740&oldid=15725]here (http://([b)? I hope it's the criterion you have been using while reviewing the maps. However, maybe you may wish to fix that note with better words, or you may wish to move it to the notes in the main MapCompat page? I don't know.

PS: I also replied DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Talk:Map_compatibility]here (http://([b).


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 20, 2014, 03:28:08 pm
Today was a very good day. A good chunk of the mapping manual (25%) has been completed. Here are the (almost) completed pages:

- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Pre-mapping_stage
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Triggers_and_movers
-- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Creating_dynamic_features
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Optimization_and_troubleshooting
-- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Hint_brushes
-- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Bot_play
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Appendix_A:_Glossary_of_terms


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 26, 2014, 08:26:23 am
Oh, yeah, another update on the mapping manual.

The following pages have been created since the last update:

- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Prologue (needs a bit of history on mapping programs)
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Lighting
-- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Advanced_lighting
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Mapmodels
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Additional_gametype_support
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/The_final_touches (needs more info)
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Compiling_and_packaging
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Appendix_E2:_Model_sets


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 27, 2014, 03:39:29 am
Is it possible that in (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Creating_dynamic_features#Death_pits
you erroneously wrote "Create a brush covering half of the bottom of the pit" instead of "Create a brush covering the bottom half of the pit"? And by the way, I suppose that guide section should better explain how the various triggers should be "stacked" inside the pit. I can guess the first one the player should encounter while falling should be the one which triggers the scream, then the one that kills you, and finally the "nodrop" one. Uhm... probably we should also mention how to modify the trigger in case we want the corpse to immediately explode (adivisable in space maps) or to lie on the bottom (advisable in fog of death).

In general, usage of some images in the mapping tutorial may be useful (e.g. screenshots or schemas about how to place triggers to achieve certain effects, etc.)...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 27, 2014, 06:10:23 am
Is it possible that in (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Creating_dynamic_features#Death_pits
you erroneously wrote "Create a brush covering half of the bottom of the pit" instead of "Create a brush covering the bottom half of the pit"? And by the way, I suppose that guide section should better explain how the various triggers should be "stacked" inside the pit. I can guess the first one the player should encounter while falling should be the one which triggers the scream, then the one that kills you, and finally the "nodrop" one. Uhm... probably we should also mention how to modify the trigger in case we want the corpse to immediately explode (adivisable in space maps) or to lie on the bottom (advisable in fog of death).
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Administrivia/RepairDontRespond

=)

About the screenshots, yeah, all the mapping manual articles require them, but for now I want to finish the text part, the screenshots may come later.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 27, 2014, 08:21:07 am
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Administrivia/RepairDontRespond
I know the "be bold" of wiki spite, but I was not sure I interpreted that sentence the correct way. Now I modified that phrase, but that sentence is not the only thing I think should be clearer in that section (see post above)... I cannot fix what I do not understand (you have probably done death pits hundreds of times... I did only once). Please give a look to it when you will have some time. Thank you.

PS: Is it more correct "bottom half" or "lower half"?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 27, 2014, 09:23:27 am
Whatever. It's a pit, not a passage.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 28, 2014, 08:18:34 am
While searching for material for the Mapping Manual, I've stumbled upon these documents. They are related to models and bots, so this should be useful for other areas of the wiki.

http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/Model_Manual/model_manual.htm
http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/New_Teams_For_Q3TA/
http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/bot_manual/
http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/Compile_Manual/modelskins.txt
http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/Compile_Manual/headskins.txt


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 30, 2014, 01:20:43 pm
I have noticed that several wikis in Wikia have a direct chat widget. Is it possible (and desireable) to enable such feature in OAWiki?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 30, 2014, 03:12:08 pm
I was thinking that we can also add a "Practice" section (i.e. "Mapping manual/Practice/Brush manipulation", "Mapping manual/Practice/Curve manipulation", "Mapping manual/Practice/Triggers and movers", etc.) once the Mapping manual is finished, with a map being built from scratch until all the concepts learnt from it are covered. But theory should come first.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 31, 2014, 05:01:35 am
I have noticed that several wikis in Wikia have a direct chat widget. Is it possible (and desireable) to enable such feature in OAWiki?
Chat feature is listed in the "Wikia Labs" section (meaning something like "beta"), and is reported as active in 38.979 wikis (how many wiki sites does Wika host??? Wikia home page mentions 405.436 "total communities"...). The option is inactive: if Fromhell wants to activate it, it's in Special:WikiFeatures page. However, I don't know if that is really needed. For generic chat, there are already various IRC channels, although I'm not used using them. For talking about the wiki itself, you haven't yet replied to some questions I left in your talk page weeks ago, would you use the chat to discuss about wiki changes?

I was thinking that we can also add a "Practice" section (i.e. "Mapping manual/Practice/Brush manipulation", "Mapping manual/Practice/Curve manipulation", "Mapping manual/Practice/Triggers and movers", etc.) once the Mapping manual is finished, with a map being built from scratch until all the concepts learnt from it are covered. But theory should come first.

Maybe "Mapping manual/Brush manipulation/Practice"? A sub-page of the manual page about a specific topic, similarily to an appendix.
Or "Mapping tutorial/Brush manipulation", or "Mapping exercises/Brush manipulation"? An apposite section of the wiki...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 31, 2014, 05:50:51 am
I have noticed that several wikis in Wikia have a direct chat widget. Is it possible (and desireable) to enable such feature in OAWiki?
Chat feature is listed in the "Wikia Labs" section (meaning something like "beta"), and is reported as active in 38.979 wikis (how many wiki sites does Wika host??? Wikia home page mentions 405.436 "total communities"...). The option is inactive: if Fromhell wants to activate it, it's in Special:WikiFeatures page. However, I don't know if that is really needed. For generic chat, there are already various IRC channels, although I'm not used using them. For talking about the wiki itself, you haven't yet replied to some questions I left in your talk page weeks ago, would you use the chat to discuss about wiki changes?
Chat is a more direct way of talking than just messages.

I was thinking that we can also add a "Practice" section (i.e. "Mapping manual/Practice/Brush manipulation", "Mapping manual/Practice/Curve manipulation", "Mapping manual/Practice/Triggers and movers", etc.) once the Mapping manual is finished, with a map being built from scratch until all the concepts learnt from it are covered. But theory should come first.

Maybe "Mapping manual/Brush manipulation/Practice"? A sub-page of the manual page about a specific topic, similarily to an appendix.
Or "Mapping tutorial/Brush manipulation", or "Mapping exercises/Brush manipulation"? An apposite section of the wiki...
Mapping manual/Brush manipulation/Practice may be good and well, as long as it can be chained. But first I want to finish the Mapping manual itself.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 31, 2014, 06:52:28 am
Chat is a more direct way of talking than just messages.
Let's wait for Fromhell's opinion.  :) Partly because "I don't know what's better", and mostly because I don't want to enable new features without Fromhell's approval.

Quote
Mapping manual/Brush manipulation/Practice may be good and well, as long as it can be chained. But first I want to finish the Mapping manual itself.
Decision between "Mapping manual/Topic/Practice" or "Mapping manual/Practice/Topic" may depend from the way you think you will write those pages, if more as a "now, let's try to appy what you just read" or more as a complete "step by step" tutorial where you should follow exercises in a certain order...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 31, 2014, 06:57:20 am
I was thinking more on the second option, a step-by-step tutorial.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on January 31, 2014, 07:20:02 am
I was thinking more on the second option, a step-by-step tutorial.
In that case, maybe your original naming idea (Mapping manual/Practice/Topic) may be a bit better than the other one. Or even just "Mapping practice/Topic" may work.
However, that's just a detail: hyperlinks allow to jump from a "manual" page to the corresponding "tutorial" page (or vice versa) in a click...  :)

For me it's the same.  :)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on January 31, 2014, 08:49:10 am
Yeah, the practice session would be the step-by-step tutorial, the main "how-to", while the mapping manual the manual would be the manual itself.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 05, 2014, 06:30:14 am
Uhm... are you sure the current structure of
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Additional_gametype_support (DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Additional_gametype_support?oldid=16284]permalink to current version (http://([b))
is better than the previous (DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Additional_gametype_support?oldid=15989]permalink to previous version (http://([b))? I have the impresson that before it was easier to find out the infos you were searching for: "Question: how do I add support for Domination mode? - Answer: do this, then this and then that."). Don't you think? PS: Also, references to setting "facing angle" for obelisks entities disappeared.

Another thing: maybe in a few pages you made an "overload" of foot-note-based references to third-party tutorials? Like in DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Pre-mapping_stage (http://([b)this one[/url]. Time ago, you said too many foot notes did make pages hard to read (that's one of the reasons you come out with the "appendix pages" idea)... Maybe linking the same third-party tutorials over and over again isn't the best option? Maybe using the "external links" section instead of a foot note, when a certain third party link applies to various sections of the page? Just an idea... Or, when a link is referred more times, guessing if it's really necessary to refer to it all those times?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on February 05, 2014, 09:36:34 am
Footnotes as in "footnotes", not links.
In Wikis, footnotes are generally the links of the cites, not huge notes explaining something which can be explained in just one line without being a footnote.

About gametype support, well, that's a good point, but the layouts should be explained in the Map gameplay page, and after taking it from the gametype page, only what entities need to be placed and in whatr amount is remaining.

This leads me to think that the Map Gameplay page should be splitted in two: Layout types and Map gameplay.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 05, 2014, 10:05:33 am
Another note I just noticed about the gametypes support page. It's not so clear how the "fallback system" for spawn points works in the various modes. For example, at the moment, it's not clear that DD mode will search for "info_player_dd_blue and info_player_dd_red" OR "info_player_dd" OR standard deathmatch spawn points (searching for them in this preference order).

Also, the new table you added DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Additional_gametype_support#Per-gametype_entity_support]here (http://([b) should somehow allow "something" to manage these "preference/alternatives" more clearly than just "Required/Optional" (which is ok for objectives, like team_neutralobelisk, but for spawnpoints I'm not sure).
I mean, now the table says, for DD mode, that all three "info_player_dd", "info_player_blue" and "info_player_red" "info_player_dd_blue" and "info_player_dd_red" [typo corrected] are "required". But I can guess that if you placed info_player_blue and info_player_red info_player_dd_blue and "info_player_dd_red [typo corrected], then info_player_dd becomes absolutely useless, isn't so?
I'm not sure about the best way to fix this, but I think we should find something...

PS: does "info_player_dom" exist in OA 0.8.8?
For those team-based, Sago said they have been added after 0.8.8, but this other one?


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 05, 2014, 11:26:12 am
About spawn points usage order, what about placing numbers or letters in the table? Starting from 1 or A, meaning the first one the engine will search for? Both blue and red points of the same kind (in other words, those to be used together) would get the same number or letter.

One may however specify something (e.g. an asterisk or other symbol) for those that are unadvisable (such as dm spawn points in ctf mode... Although in oacmpdm10 I used that on purpose, to achieve unconventional gameplay, I know it's not usual. :))

UPDATE: Considering the different nature of spawnpoints and objective entities (and the different "required/optional/alternative" usage), one may even split the table in two different tables (that should also make easier to follow shorter columns, while reading)...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on February 05, 2014, 10:39:02 pm
No.

In fact I may resume the table to supported, recommended and not supported and call it a day. You know what I think about too much info.

Besides, I want to finish as much articles as I can before RL calls me back. Even then I'll make sure to unclutter the pages with only the required info.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 06, 2014, 02:24:35 am
But in its actual state, the part about spawnpoints of that table does just report misleading informations. Removing that part of the table would be better than keeping wrong infos. Even the old "Mapping information for special gametypes" page would be better... Saying that writing "A", "B", "C" instead of "R" or "O" would be "too much info" is absolutely senseless. The fact that "info_player_dd" usage is alternate to "info_player_dd_red and _blue" usage and NOT complimentary to it is basic/necessary info... how's possible to don't see that?  ??? Why do you want people to place dozens of useless spawn points in their maps?

Also, I don't get the reason why you DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Additional_gametype_support?diff=16370&oldid=16360]changed to colors instead of letters (http://([b), which does not help at all in fixing the problems of the table. Maybe it makes the table a little quicker to read (except for daltonic people, of course), but its main effect is to make it harder to edit. Why did you do that?  :-\

PS: sorry for mistyping info_player_blue and info_player_red instead of info_player_dd_blue and info_player_dd_red in the post above. However I hope was I meant was clear anyway.

Rushing how many articles in a few days, leaving them with major issues, does not seem a great idea. When you do something, do it right the first time, isn't this the premise of OA3?

PPS: IMHO, in DD it would be better to use info_player_dd instead of info_player_dd_red and info_player_dd_blue: if players of each team spawn in their own base (similarily to CTF-based modes), it's quite unlikely someone will be able to score... But this is just my opinion.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 11, 2014, 02:42:16 am
Due to some dubts emerged in another thread (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4835.msg50295#msg50295), I took a look to the "clip" shaders:

From 0.8.1 "common.shader":
Quote
textures/common/clip
{
   surfaceparm nolightmap
   surfaceparm nomarks
   surfaceparm nodraw
   surfaceparm nonsolid
   surfaceparm playerclip
   surfaceparm noimpact
}

//to keep certain textures from being shot up
textures/common/weapclip
{
   surfaceparm nodraw
   surfaceparm trans
   surfaceparm nomarks
}

//nicked from nexuiz
textures/common/metalclip
{
   surfaceparm nodraw
   surfaceparm nolightmap
   surfaceparm nonsolid
   surfaceparm trans
   surfaceparm nomarks
   surfaceparm noimpact
   surfaceparm playerclip
   surfaceparm metalsteps
}

// acts as player clip only for the bots
// can keep them from being pushed into voids
// do not use, use donotenter instead :-P
textures/common/botclip
{
   surfaceparm nodraw
   surfaceparm nolightmap
   surfaceparm nonsolid
   surfaceparm trans
   surfaceparm nomarks
   surfaceparm noimpact
   surfaceparm botclip
}

textures/common/missileclip
{
   surfaceparm nodamage
   surfaceparm nomarks
   surfaceparm nodraw
   surfaceparm playerclip
   surfaceparm trans
}

textures/common/full_clip
{
   surfaceparm nodraw
   surfaceparm playerclip
}

Maybe we should write somewhere in the wiki (mapping manual appendix or something?) about the actual differences of these shaders (at the moment, not all of them are documented).

Note: I slightly updated the "bot play" page: it referred to "common/botdonotenter", but the proper name of the shader is "common/donotenter": "bot" word is displayed in the (very low quality, maybe for OA should be changed?) editor image, but is not really part of the shader name.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on February 11, 2014, 10:10:23 am
That's what the still-non-built Shaders page is for.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 11, 2014, 10:23:18 am
Do you have ideas about how to organize that page?
I mean, it's probably impossible to put everything in a single page. Q3 Shader manual (http://toolz.nexuizninjaz.com/shader/) is a whole separate manual than the Q3Radiant one...

PS: About introduction/base practical tips about shaders, did I already told you can re-use (adapting as necessary) the notes I wrote in this post (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4849.msg48718#msg48718)? Yes, I already did (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4046.msg49300#msg49300).  :)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on February 11, 2014, 02:46:20 pm
Rushing how many articles in a few days, leaving them with major issues, does not seem a great idea. When you do something, do it right the first time, isn't this the premise of OA3?
I would have done a better job if the OACMP and real life wouldn't have gotten in the middle.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on February 13, 2014, 11:16:41 am
Do you think we should write here (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Brush_manipulation#Edge_and_vertex_edition
something like <<Manipulating a brush you may cause two or more of its faces to become one. This would cause "duplicate plane" messages at compiling, which may create problems to bots navigation. In case you just fused two faces this way accidentally, you may want to "undo" your edit or to re-create the brush from scratch, to avoid any risk.>> ?

It's due to what is written in the "Error Messages" section here in the GTKRadiant manual (http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/q3radiant_manual/ch12/pg12_1.htm#eddebug).


Title: Configuration page by anonymous
Post by: Gig on October 27, 2014, 01:48:56 am
Hello everybody.
Can I ask your opinion?

A few days ago, an unregistered user created a "DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Configuration_file]Configuration file (http://([b)" page on the wiki (DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Configuration_file?oldid=16781]permalink (http://([b))[/size], placing in there just a configuration example for a server, and no more explainations.
Unlike our existing server config example in DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Servers#Server_config_example]Servers#Server config example (http://([b) (DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Servers?oldid=16786#Server_config_example]permalink (http://([b))[/size], his example does not have "comments" to explain each line. There are even a few cvars which I don't know at all, so I don't even know if they are from baseoa or from some mod (e.g. what's "cm_playercurveclip"?).

I did imagine a "configuration file" wiki page as a page mainly explaining what q3config.cfg is and where it is stored, if needed with links to "DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Configuration_examples]configuration examples (http://([b)" page...
What should we do with that guy's config example? Delete the whole page? Move it to a sub-page of "Configuration examples"? But in that case, that config should be checked for possible errors and should get some comments...

What's your opinion, guys?


Title: "Wikia" becomes "Fandom powered by Wikia"
Post by: Gig on September 27, 2016, 03:00:13 am
"Wikia" site gets re-branded to "Fandom powered by Wikia":
http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Craiglpalmer/Wikia_is_now_Fandom_powered_by_Wikia

The main wikia site can now also be accessed as www.fandom.com

Individual wikis are still accessed through the classic URLs, in our case (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com. Accessing them as subdomains of fandom.com does not seem to work at the moment.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on October 20, 2016, 03:24:15 am
Just for the record, I finally "splitted" the content of DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Multiplayer]Manual/Multiplayer (http://([b) by creating DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Multiplayer/Advanced]Manual/Multiplayer/Advanced (http://([b). Content is the same as before, just splitted into two separate pages. It was years I thought about that.


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on November 07, 2016, 05:40:26 am
I recently realized that the main page of a wikia site, when accessed from a mobile phone which identifies itself (user agent) as a mobile phone, shows a completely different page (preview here: (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Main_Page?useskin=mercury).
More infos in http://community.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Mobile_Main_Page
Only admins can customize it, and possible actions are extremely limited. You CANNOT manually enter any text to be shown there (even the "promote your wiki" text isn't shown in the page itself)... you can just add a few "featured content" links. But those links cannot bring to the Main Page itself, as wikia considers that ugly page already being "the" Main Page.
This is an issue for us, due to our main page having a lot of useful links. And I haven't found a way to turn off this stupid "mobile home page" feature...

So, I somehow found a workaround: I created a "Full Main Page" page which includes (as if it was a template) the "real" main page. Then added it as a "featured content" with the name of "Main Page (Complete)" to the Mobile Main Page. So now people can use that link to read the contents of the real main page (still with "mobile" skin, but showing the real content). Furthermore, I also added a reminder in top of the page (the "workaround" one) to tell people who are using the mobile version of the site that there is a "VIEW FULL SITE" link at the very bottom of each page, to show desktop version.

But it's absurd one has to invent such workarounds just to allow mobile viewers to somehow read the main page...  :no:
I know the "mobile main page" itself has got the "view full site" link at its bottom, but that's not so intuitive...


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Gig on July 31, 2017, 05:55:01 am
Hey, I FINALLY imported the "hidden" teamplate from general wikia to our wikia:
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Template:Hidden

Finally we can hide content inside boxes that start closed and the user can expand at will. Enjoy!  :)


Title: Re: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?
Post by: Neon_Knight on July 31, 2017, 03:50:26 pm
Great! :)