OpenArena Message Boards

BEAR IN MIND: This is NOT a discussion over which maps should go into the next version of OA or which maps should get scrapped. Such topics are already being discussed here (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4523.0). This is only for the Tribute maps mappack. Anything else will be considered derailing.

---

0.8.8 will be the last time the Quake Remakes will be shipped with the main game. From 0.9.0 / OA3 onwards, they will be placed in a separate "Tribute to Quake" pack.

So far, the current content list in http://www.openarena.ws/svn/packs/tribute is the following:

- cbctf1 (Q3A's q3ctf4: Space CTF)
- ce1m7 (Quake's e1m7: House of Chthon)
- dm4ish (Quake's dm4: The Bad Place)
- dm6ish (Quake's dm6: The Dark Zone)
- oa_ctf4ish (Q3A's q3ctf4)
- oa_dm1 (Quake's dm1: The Place Of Two Deaths)
- oa_dm2 (Quake's dm2: Claustrophobopolis)
- oa_dm3 (Quake's dm3: Abandoned Base)
- oa_dm4 (Quake's dm4)
- oa_dm5 (Quake's dm5: The Cistern)
- oa_dm6 (Quake's dm6)
- oa_dm7 (Quake's cut map dm7: Acrophobia)
- q3dm6ish (Q3A's q3dm6: The Camping Grounds)
- wrackdm17 (Q3A's q3dm17: The Longest Yard)

It's pretty obvious that these maps became "classics" of both Q3A and OA, (and I'm still aware that not everyone knew the originals, but it isn't the point here) but at the same time it's also true that these maps have a lot of issues.

What should we do with these maps? Scrap some of them completely? Remake them? Fix them? Should we also include other Quake maps such as Q2's The Edge (q2dm1) Q2CTF's Capture Showdown (q2dm5) Q3A's Dueling Keeps (q3ctf1)?

So far, I've tried my hand at remaking q3dm6ish as q3dm6ishv3, with an additional CTF version, and I've also tried to do my own version of q3ctf1, though it's still just a .map file and I haven't published it yet.

Let the debate... begin! :D

IMO I think there could be a few more Quake ports over

E2M3, E4M3 and E1M5

I wonder if the original entity list could also be used to serve as dual functionality so they could be played in Darkplaces+Quake :P

IICR, those maps are among the .map files in the Quake map sources.

Yeah, and quake's .map sources cover every map, including maps that didn't make the cut (DM7, first half of Dismal Oublette). I'm just mentioning those as I have fond memories of DMing those in the '90s. They were among some of the funner SP maps to DM in.

Also, fyi, darkplaces can load .ent files so you could tailor for OA in the BSP, and keep it for Quake in a .ent

another thing to watch out for is the lightstyles - Q3map2 will attempt to make shaders to fake animated lightmaps. You'll want to take out the lightstyles

E1M5, Gloom Keep, wasn't tributed by ztn?

EDIT: That last paragraph means no "-nocollapse"? I never use that switch. Well, I've used it when normal compile freezed my PC when I used Win, but nowadays I don't use that.

i'm not sure

BTW more tributes = more Generations Q3 fun :P

I do want to include to the list at least one Quake II remake. q2dm1 and q2ctf1 seems fun enough. (Fun fact: mckinleyish2 started as an "-ish" of q2ctf1)

Also ware3 and for mindless fragging fact3.

Well, tried to open the original map in NetRadiant, no success until I found a handy tool for such work.

I'm surprised that everyone (even I) talks about the good mapping techniques when the boys at Id weren't exactly the best mappers ever. But those maps came from before the Quake series existed, so they're pardoned.

I vote for a recreation from scratch instead of trying to take the original map and fix it. -.-

EDIT: lei/FH, question... delta enters in this pack? It's very mpteam6 for me.

There were some Q2 DM maps that were nice enough. Some remakes could be good. Is "the edge" the one with the large "tower"? I liked it a lot, at the times...

PS, just a curiosity: why placing Quake series tribute maps to an optional package, and tributes to other games not?

Ask lei/FH.

BTW, some candidates for the TP:

- The Walrus's q3tourney6ish / tourney6ish_ctf. (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=2087)
- Moixie's q3dm6ish remixes. (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4285)
- Malikith's q3dm17 version. (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=529)

What I'm doing?

- oa_ctf1ish (Q3's Q3CTF1 - The Dueling Keeps)
- oa_e1m5 (Q1's E1M5 - Gloom Keep, just a test, but if someone's interested in completing it...)

OA already has many maps, so i guess you should not make (just) a q3 tribute pack.
What about some kind of "additional pack" which includes
- tributes
- maps which are not included in OA next for different reasons

OA just should have "quality" maps inside.
"quality" could be:
- eyecandy
- gameplay

How many maps should be included in OA next?
Which maps will make it and which will be out?
Is there any direction, maps for OA should go (e.g. just medival style, gothic or industrial ones)?

Current OA (0.8.8 ) has a lot of castle/temple maps, and variants of the castle/temple setting. There're some industrial maps as well. And OFC the space maps. Since we cannot directly delete maps which were already present in 0.8.1 and 0.8.5, the best route to take for us was to "dummy out" several of the maps (i.e. not allowing them to be shown in the Skirmish and Create Server menu) Still, we cannot control which maps the servers have in their maplists until the next full version.

For 0.9.0 it's expected that the amount of maps should be lowered, and the dummied out maps should be atticed, remaked or improved enough. Many maps can get cut aside of the remakes.

BTW, my definition of quality is about gameplay + visuals + performance. The three of them should be present in a map to be considered a quality map.
Only gameplay dates a lot the map and doesn't add anything to the game. This is also true for the combination gameplay + performance - visuals.
Only visuals only serves for flyby or benchmarking, but not for actual playing. The same is true for gameplay + visuals - performance and performance + visuals - gameplay.
Only performance has no utility at all.

But we aren't professional mappers/modellers/etc, and people bash us in other places for not being professional enough. But without actual help, we can't do anything.

I agree with both of you.

Probably, OA0.9.0/OA3 will have much less "stock" maps. Only best quality maps (gameplay+visuals+performance) will be keeped. Ok.
Anyway, there are many maps that are good and nice that, even if they will not be in OA3 official package, many people may like to continue playing. Of course quake tributes, but not only quake tributes. Tribute to other games or not... "hystorical" or "future" maps... they can be worth to continue "living", even if in an optional package only.
It may be a single extra package, or many extra packages, but continuing to distribute them somehow will be a nice thing.
Of course, not maps excluded cause of license problems or major bugs/incompatibilities... but many maps should have no problem.

Ok for making tribute and oldies packs, but then please include

No seriously, making separate maps packs to only keep high quality maps in the core game is a good idea, but then it should be accompanied with a change in the handling of custom material in OpenArena (see related post about some ideas like making a download splashscreen like in UrbanTerror), because else these packs will be lost since most players don't know how to handle the downloading of third-party material in-game. And if OA core only keep a few maps in stock, it won't be very fun to see most servers running only these few maps again and again.

I hope that additional map pack(s) download(s) will be available in the main site download page, just below main game download, easy enough to recognize...

I'll try to rerail this topic once more. Please, remember that this topic is for gathering people for the Tribute pack, NOT a topic to discuss which maps should go in 0.9.0/OA3. I'll open a thread for that later.

Here's my work on e1m5. As I've said before, it's just a test, and someone should take the work of recreating this map from scratch. It uses ambientlight because I'm not interested on working on a map so flawed as this one.

Here's an alpha version of Q3CTF1. It's just the .map file, with spawnpoints for both teams and the flags, but no weapons or items.

Added the disclaimer. =)

In these days I was working on oa_dm5. The map had a lot of structural problems, mainly that a single brush was shared among many rooms, and there were no real curves, so I wanted to change that, to give oa_dm5 a more Q3-feel than Q1-feel. I've also added the passage featured in oa_dm5v2, which connects the Northeast and Southeast rooms with the Water area.

There will also be a new placement, this time there will be a sweet goodie behind the door (Not BFG, I was thinking one of the holdables or a TA weapon, perhaps Nailgun or Chaingun?) so the button/door system will be kept.

I'm trying to keep acc's changes as much as I can.

Here're some screenshots.

(http://i.imgur.com/lvtvHB1s.png) (http://imgur.com/lvtvHB1)  (http://i.imgur.com/iw02nXQs.png) (http://imgur.com/iw02nXQ) (http://i.imgur.com/zXxP7sas.png) (http://imgur.com/zXxP7sa) (http://i.imgur.com/TOE75qls.png) (http://imgur.com/TOE75ql) (http://i.imgur.com/OfXMPEds.png) (http://imgur.com/OfXMPEd) (http://i.imgur.com/oDznwQFs.png) (http://imgur.com/oDznwQF)

Oh, and now we have DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Quake_Tribute_Mappack]a Wiki page for this (http://([b).

Bump! Seeing as Adriano's version of q3ctf4 can be a good alternative for oa_ctf4ish I'll be reviving this topic. I'll be hosting the work we do in a Github repository (I'll create it tomorrow), now that I've learned a few things about how it works.

I have also started the work on a remake of q3ctf1, it's still incomplete and very blocky (I'm in the middle of a creative block -.-) and I'm also including these two GPLd versions of q3tourney6 (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=2087.0) (both DM and CTF) and the older version of am_mckinleyish, the one closer to the original q2dm1.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand here it is! Clone the following repository.


Things to do:
- Choose or fuse: either leave one version of the current maps and delete the rest, or try to find a "happy medium" by choosing one version of the map and adding the changes made to the other versions.
- Improve the remaining map list once the above is done.
- Clean the .maps folder so only the chosen maps are there.
- Add building scripts.
- Add an .arena/.info file generator.
- Add the rest of the folders.
- RELEASE!

With this repo, let the mapping work begin!

Added Moixie's q3dm6(ish) remakes.

odd you say "Quake maps only" when there's obvious UT/Q3/U remakes in there


(anyway, awaiting e2m3, e4m3, e1m5, e1m2, end)


also keep in mind of the quake scale difference - it's roughly 0.8 smaller. g_enableQ in the latest VMs should help debug and realize proportions (but don't rely on it)

Yeah, that fan just got past the radar. In the last commit I've deleted it, and used folders to sort everything.

Hello, recently returned to the city, slowly starting to go into map threads again...

This is interesting, although I'm not so sure about having the maps repository slitted between svn site (http://openarena.ws/svn, which is however not very practical, because at least the web version does not show version history... I suppose an SVN client is required to really use it) and a separate git repo, not managed by Fromhell. However I suppose Fromhell may just copy the required files from Git to Svn repository when it's the right time.

About the OA3 "Tribute Mappack", I have not fully understood if that's meant to host Quake-only remakes or all remakes from other games (one may reverse the question and ask if stock OA3 will contain such remakes or not). Will it be a "Quake Tribute Mappack" or a "Tribute Mappack"?

There is a wikia page named "DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Quake_Tribute_Mappack]Quake Tribute Mappack (http://([b)", maybe that should have been named "Tribute Mappack" or "OA3/Tribute Mappack"? It mentions a non-Quake-remake policy, but (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/OA3#Maps currently mentions:(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/OA3/NOTTODO currently does not mention anything about remakes/tributes, instead.
So?

Excuse me, could you please explain more about this?
I know you don't like explaining things in detail, but please, a few words?

Do you mean that Quake1 players and hence maps sizes (such as doors and steps) were a bit smaller than Q3 players and hence map sizes? And that q_enableQ makes your character a bit smaller (similar to Q1), to better fit the maps converted from Q1? I tried it, and it seems to me its effect is to "shrink" my character a little. Or is it something else?

Also, I see from autocomplete that they also exist g_enableDust, g_enableBreath and g_enableFS... what are those for?

Don't worry. I have prepared a separate repo so we don't have to rely on SVN.

Q3 tribute mappack will only host Quake tributes.

About that part of NOTTODO, well, consider the chance that other commercial tributes to go into another pack. The tribute hosted in the SVN only contains Quake tributes, anyway, and I'm basing this tribute on that pack.

Do you think Fromhell is planning two separate tribute packs ("Quake series" and "others"), then? Everything is okay for me, as long as the maps will be available somewhere.

And what about maps like am_galmevish, which you are reworking for OA3? While being a relatively simple layout, IIRC you said its s based upon like three maps from different games (I don't know the originals) mixed together, right? Then, should it be considered a "tribute", too?  :-\

Another thing: I don't understand the reason why DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Quake_Tribute_Mappack&diff=17583&oldid=14983]here (http://([b) you wrote "As OA3 isn't released yet, we won't support Possession.". Isn't the Tribute Mappack an add-on pack thought to be complementar to OA3, and thus supposed to be released more or less at the same time? Then I don't see the reason to do not support Possession in the mappack.

Not sure if I should drop it here to  :-\

My Q3dm17 redux for OA:

https://app.box.com/s/iwd6k9p2za1b5xz1wxgqbv7xg2r411li (https://app.box.com/s/iwd6k9p2za1b5xz1wxgqbv7xg2r411li)

When I finish setting things up, I'll add it to the repo. Thank you!

That's a "beta test" version (as you wrote under the floor of the map itself)... I would suggest it to post the download link in this post only once it's "finished".

In the meanwhile, I suppose a link to the specific map thread would be better:
http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=5347.0
(Like to say: "Hey, I'm working on a map for the mappack! Keep an eye on it!")

(If one wishes, one may always link the apposite thread instead of direct download link in this one, even when it's "finished". Maybe that's even better... as rarely maps are really "finished"  ;D)

 ;)

I feel guilty for making requests, but do you think idmap01 (https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/idstuff/doom2/idmap01) could be adapted to OA form?  (not as a direct import but a mapping from its layout)

It's kind of an important map in id history as well.......... it's id's first deathmatch map, way before Willits claimed to have invented them.

Heretic also had a variation on this same map then too (E4M1 in the original 1994 release)

Why guilty? I don't see anything bad in asking for making a map.

By the way, some more infos about that map here: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Id_Map01

idmap1 ?  Its from Doom2 sounds nice. Unforunately I cant remember to this map and to fire up the old doom2 engine...  :-X

However:
My opinion to some of the classic maps: the game play of some map parts maybe do not fit perfectly to the q3 engine movement. Example: elivators can screw up the game flow and shall be replaced by jumppads or teleporter. I belief that can be done without deytroy the main map layout and will enhance the map to play on OA.

"Tribute maps" do not necessarily have to strictly follow the original.
An example is oa_ctf4ish - Evolution by adriano: http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=5275.0
If you try it, especially one of the latest betas, you can see many differences from the original q3ctf4. It's still a tribute to q3ctf4, but it differs from the original much more than DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Maps/oa_ctf4ish]oa_ctf4ish (http://([b) you can find in OA 0.8.x. Considering remakes will not be in "stock" OA3, which one of the two will be in the tribute mappack? I don't know. Which one is "better"? I have no idea (note: "better" also depends from personal taste)...

Exactly. As much of a tribute this mappack is, it should be adapted to OA gameplay.
Id/Bethesda didn't took the "straight remake" route when they brought q3dm6 to Quake Champions as Blood Covenant for a reason. Neither did Epic when they remaked their classic maps for the newer Unreal games. And I don't think we shall be an exception to that rule. :)

I'm on it !

....stay tuned....  ;D

maybe the discord could be used for a little more realtime contact?

...ehm.....what ?  (https://img.forumfree.net/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)

Discord is a chat system, available as web, desktop or mobile app. There is an OpenArena Discord server: http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=5287.0
It can be used to discuss about various aspects of OpenArena in realtime... it's good, although personally I prefer the forum for development...

Hi everyone.

In the attachment you can find the BSP and AAS (for play with BOTs) of the first playable version of the map.

Some Bugs:

1) No title and Music.
2) Some lights missing.
3) Textures not perfect, i think...
4) No ammoboxes.
5) Weapons overpowered are near eachother (BFG and Rocketleuncher).
6) Some other things...

This is not the original version, it's remade from scratch, some brushes are adapted for playablitity.

;)

I'll try it in the next days.

What about creating an apposite thread about the map?

Hi Akom, I just did some testing with the map. Nice! By the way, please next time package it in pk3 format, thank you!

I don't really know the original map and I haven't been able to find a youtube video about it... However I can see the "Doom-ish" feeling. :)

Tried it in FFA mode with various opponents gave a really fast, funny and a bit cahotic deathmatch. Trying it with with only one opponent showed an overuse of the BFG.

I read under the screenshots in this page (https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Id_Map01) that in the original map rocket launcher and BFG were "procted" by "damaging floor" (term with which they look like to refer to "slime" (https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Damaging_floor))... maybe in the original map there was slime instead of water, and getting out from it wasn't so easy?

Other things I noticed:
- There are a few places that you cannot actually reach without trickjumping or already spawning there.
- I read that in the original, the plasmagun was on a trigger-activated elevator you have to activate in order to get the weapon (now in your map, you have to jump to reach it). Do you plan to use a button operated "door" brush to simulate the elevator maybe, or do you think that would slow down gameplay too much or be a problem for bots?

In the original map you can find also a teleporter, but the source of it it's in the water (or damaging water)...

Here you can see the map from the export for Heretic: https://youtu.be/QdsgesbH_nM

The map it's named E6M3.

It seems that the rocket launcher is not a rocket launcher but the enviro suit.... xD

Before edit the map again i want to know Fromhell's thoughts about.

By the way i think that the slime can be a good solution.

;)

What? That (https://doomwiki.org/wiki/File:Idmap01_outside.png) looks like a rocket launcher to me...

PS: Maybe the paths to rocket launcher and BFG seem be a bit narrower in that map than in yours...

I mean in the Heretic video. In the Doom original map it's a rocket launcher.

:)

Good work Akom....

... but the original map design do not fit to a fast tournament shooter in my opinion. :-\ Maybe its because Doom / Doom2 and Heretic was more designed for a single mode action gameplay.
There is to less gameplay flow at that design ... Sorry for saying.  xD

I agree, this map is not for deathmatch, but is playable adding some brush work...
...don't know what Fromhell want to do...

 ;)

Hey, it is one of the very first "deathmatch only" maps ever created after all, what do you demand? It doesn't seem so bad to me.
I look forward for a more "complete" version of Akom's version, as there are some empty or unreachable areas at the moment.

Besides, the original map comes from games which originated in an era where Z-axis fighting wasn't even a plausible concept.

yeah ... Doom, Doom2 and Heretic looks like 3d but indeed they are 2D.

I am not sure whats your vision but some suggestion from my side, Akom.

- Stay with the basic layout
- enlarge some areas
- ingreese the transistion between the rooms
- terminate the dead ends with some teleporter and or jumppads
- use to build some upper platforms to connect dead ends and destination for teleporters maybe.

Cheers

I agree with you, but first i have to read Fromhell's comments about it.

;)

I belief in you Akom ya a awesome mapper. I guess by go ahead and bring the map close to a vision that hit a nice gameplay support, Fromhell will be flashed.  :-*

If you like I can work together with you and support you by give some feedback and share some ideas.

Cheers CG

Actually i'm working on another project, a tribute map to an older one from ZTN (Blood Run).

(https://imgur.com/BCc4g1l.jpg)

;)

Wow ... Quake Champion map. the screen shot looks promising.

Blood Run's an old third-party custom Quake map and it's also already had a Q3 rendition in 2000

Dedicated thread about "Blood Run" tribute:
http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=5355.0

PS: Fromhell, Akom is still waiting for your comments before continuing working on the Doom2 map tribute, see previous posts.  ;)

Added carca55gr1nd3r's q3dm17 (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=5347.0) and adriano's q3ctf4evo (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=5275.0) to the tribute repo (http://www.github.com/NeonKnightOA/oatributemappack).

Akom, if you're reading this, if you want Blood Run to be included in the pack (since it's based on the Quake Champions version, it can enter), remember to add the .map file to the archive!

When the PK3 will be released, it will contain the original .map file.

As always, the maps GPL'd are free to use. Free to be modyfied and free to be hosted in any hosting service.

;)

Uhm... if a map is GPL'd we should have access to the source file, according to the license itself. The repo only contains sources to those files.

If you're working with the repo, update your copies! I have reorganized the folders, so now the maps are divided by main gametype (CTF or DM) and tributed map.