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Hi there,

I'm back with some mapping-work. Again a modified version of oa_ctf4ish... "WHY?" you may ask..., "you already made sos_ctf4ish (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4666.0)". Yes, but people don't want to miss an easy reachable rail and the pillars in the air also disturb. So it wasn't a big deal. "Ok, why we need changes on the original oa_ctf4ish map?" Because rail camping from the rail platform is still annoying (that's what me and other notice at :F-servers).

NOTE: I am still building the map. The red base is more advanced than the blue base. Light fixes, some texture fixes and some more detailed constructions (e.g. at the new rail platform) were needed.
"Why don't finish the map first and then post it here?" It is a well known map and I want to give the possibility to bring your ideas in (especially in terms of gameplay but also for the mapstyle). Which changes would you do on the map?

The new version in my oppinion will be...
1. with rail, but in a way where you can't camp undisturbed
2. with OA logos instead of *SoS*
3. a little bit restyled (some ideas from QL's SPACE CTF)

I have some screenshots with comments for you. Now gimme some oppinion.  ;D

here another screenshot and also a pk3-testfile (s12b):

Hi! Done a very quick try, without bots.
- After you get the grenade launcher, it's a bit too easy to bump your head on the roof, stepping on the buncepad.
- Look at the attached screenshot. It looks like there is a problem with the shader of the teleporter and the shader of the grid (well, now that I check, it happens also in current -0.8.8- oa_ctf4ish map). But while it can be more or less "forgiven" to see the teleporter through the "full" part of the grid (still a glitch however), in your map the teleporter is seen also through that other texture, which should look more "solid" than the grid.

I don't think it is your fault (there are no shaders in your package at the moment), however this may be the right time to find a fix for the problem. What about making a copy of those three shaders (with different names) and making some test to see if you can fix the problem? Maybe using "sort" value (http://toolz.nexuizninjaz.com/shader/shader/section3.htm#3.9)?

Hello Gig,

thank you for testing the map.
About roof-head-bumping: Didn't notice, will be fixed.
About texture problem: I haven't handled much with textures yet, but I look what I can do and let you know. Thx for the link.

Oh well, if you are new with shaders, maybe Neon Knight may give a look to those used in the map?

In OA3, oa_ctf4ish should end up in a distinct "tribute maps" package, however fixing problematic shaders may be useful.*

As a possible tip, maybe (but I may recall wrong), between OA 0.8.5 and 0.8.8 they have been fixed the "simple items" of a couple of powerups (or were they holdables?), which did appear through walls, but I don't remember exactly which they were. I don't know how that has been fixed exactly (I'm not even 100% sure it has been fixed)...
Quickly looking at inconsprites.shader file in pak6-patch085.pk3 and the one in pak6-patch088.pk3, I haven't yet figured out what changed exactly (not remembering which were the problematic icons does not help...). It looks like kamikaze icon shader has been renamed, and invulnerability has been created, for the rest I don't know. Maybe if there is a .tga image with alpha channel (transparency) and no specific shader for it, the default blenfunc used causes the image to be seen through some kinds of other shaders? I do not know. However, the portal and the grate both surely have a shader... but I really understand very little about the various blendfunc.



* Also, I don't yet know exactly how the tribute maps package will work exactly, but I can guess that to keep full compatibilty with third party maps, all OA 0.8.x textures and shaders should be shipped with the base game -even those not actually used in baseoa3 maps-, isn't it? Or, also thanks to oa3's engine missing-texture-auto-replacement feature, OA 0.8.x textures not used by baseoa3 maps will be shipped with the tribute package instead?

Hello Adriano:

I tested the map and like the changes you are making. It seems to me that you may have too many power ups, but I am assuming that the number/amount may change; that these placements are still experimental. Also, did you raise the "ceiling"? Sorry, I don't know what else to call it, I am not a mapper. If I remember correctly on the original map, if I rocket jump from the center platform on the jump pad that goes to rail platform, I hit a "ceiling" limit and begin my descent. On your modified version, that does not happen. I like it that way, and allows access to either platform and also allows to go too far and miss a safe landing entirely.

I hope my opinions help you.

@Gig: I gave it a try with shaders. I'm pretty new in it and I still need to learn some basics (with your helpful post here (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4849.msg48718#msg48718)), so it would be really much appreciated if a competent person would do that. Not for me, for OA. Otherwise I may try at my own, but it would take much time to understand how. In emergy I could replace the tin_panel-texture on that old rail platform. EDIT:  The rude solution to remove transparency is to save the .tga-file as .jpg, isn't it?

Some noob acquisitions but maybe it helps: I just found out that in 088 invulnerability is added (as you already said) and in row 80 there is written "map icons/haste" without .tga in the end like it is in 085 Not only for "haste" but also for "invis" and "regen". Idk if it makes a difference.
The texture proto2/tin_panel is a .tga image with alpha channel (transparency) like base_floor/cybergrate3.


@Blankbruno: Thx for your post. First of all: "experimental" is a good word to describe the actual state of the map. :) Yes, I am also thinking about reducing the ammount of power-ups. There are two Battle suits and one Quad damage above the center platform right now. I will just let spawn Battle suit and Quad damage (or maybe I should use other power up??) alterning on one position in the center. The 4-seconds long flight-powerup is just a funny rescue from falling down to death. It happens sometimes when you get pushed with shotgun.

I know what you mean with the rocket jump to rail platform: It feels like there is a ceiling limit but it isn't (if you want you can try it out by going in spectator mode and raise up -> you will see that the limit (btw the size of the skybox) is high enough). What makes the difference is a different flying curve that I've applied when you use this jumppad. I'm glad you like it.


@all: I would like to ask you which rail position is the best solution for you and also how much ammo it should have.
I compare two different positions:
1.] The new position I've given (on the new platform above the base) with 3 shots only
PROS:
- difficult to camp on it when you're on the enemy base because the platform is near to the base floor, so you can easily get shooten from near distance
- situation: You lost the flagg and enemy is running away -> Fast access to the rail (when you respawn at base) to stop the flagg carrier
- with 3 shots you get probably just 1-2 hits (depends how good is your aim; maybe I should raise it to 4 or 5 shots??). To get more shots you have to move and get ammo in the center of the map. => less camping possible

CONS:
- easy and fast access to the rail from own base, so you can fastly start camping ;D BUT only 3 shots (or maybe 4-5) and a respawn time of 15-20 seconds should prevent heavy camping
- when you get the rail in enemy's base then in most cases you won't use it because rocket launcher and Shotgun is the better option to hit the enemy at the base with little distance

2.] Rail in the position of BFG (rail replaced with BFG)
PROS:
- less camping because it isn't that easy to get
- it is not a comfortable place to camp in the center of the map
- while you're going to the enemy base using the jumppad you can achieve one hit to one defender *rail-well-used*

CONS:  
- this position is braking too much the map's tradition: I think a lot will miss the old position on the high-lying rail platform. (not only campers)
- due to the aloof position the rail as gun-alternative will be involved in the game very little (not by accident this was the BFG position)

Do you like more 1.] or 2.]? Or do you have other solutions?

Placing the railgun mid-air, requiring a jumppad to get it, maybe?

About temoving tranpsarency, there are ways to make shaders texture blend even if using jpg images...

Thx Gig, always #1 helper on this forum. ;)


Maybe it could work with this jumppad (see attachment; ofc it is just build provisorily)?

I have thought again about the rail position.. and I asked me "In which position the rail makes sense to be USED?" Ofc in positions where the distance between railer and enemy is long. That is mainly a) at the classic railplatform and b) at the red-cross-marked platform (see attachment).
Version 1.] in my previous post e.g. doesnt't make sense because as I said "in most cases you won't use the rail because rocket launcher and Shotgun is the better option to hit the enemy at the base with little distance"

Whereas position a) is the traditional badass-position for railing (in a positive way) but tends to get used as camping position, while position b) is good to rail at defenders while you attack their base.
The negative point of b) is that once you are at the enemy base with the rail and you get fragged, the rail gets in circulation. The defender pick up your rail and can start camping from his base. In position a) this won't happen because the rail remains on that rail platform.
The rail platform can be extended with an anti-camping-system, e.g. smth that let you crush, but you can still jump down from there to your base and camp from there. Version b) has the advantage that it isn't easy to get to the enemys' new jumppad (without getting damaged or fragged) so that you land on your own base and camp from there.

You see... there is no position without disadvantages. I will see which is the best one. Ofc tell me what you think. Thanks for your attention.

Is this (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=5275.msg54071#msg54071) the most recent version of the map? I did give it a try, but before I give my feedback I would like to confirm this.

Not sure where to tell you to place the railgun.

Most simple way would be to place it through the jump to reach upper platform (hence, to force people to stop camping to get more ammo)... but also modifying map layout a bit and changing its gameplay (as in your screenshot) may be a nice solution...
So, I don't know what to tell you...

Railgun in space maps is always a problem, and OA also has Instagib.

The key is always adding or changing areas so the Railgun becomes less powerful (the map itself limits its powerfulness) and players have a chance to stand against railers. Only solutions I can think involve the Chaingun, the Guard rune and the Invulnerability holdable being put to good use?

Neon Knight or Fromhell, could you please tell your thoughts about those textures problem we mentioned above?
Thank you.

Thx for reply.

Guard rune: This may be replaced with the Mega Health? But I'm not sure if this necessary because I've already raised the ammount of armor/health in the map.
Chaingun: I've tried it (with /devmap in oa_ctf4ish) while playing with bots and it's much more powerful than the Rocket and the Shotgun, but: more damage making weapon = more health needed in the map, so that adding Chaingun AND Guard rune could work. Needs to be tested.
Invulnerability: Cool idea for this map. I've replaced it with the Grenade Launcher. It can be used as a defending shield especially when you have the enemy flagg. The powerup-duration is 10 seconds but I can't reduce it in GtkRadiant (with count = 5 e.g.). There's no easy way to do it?



Yes, that's it. That's why I placed it here (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=5275.msg54071#msg54071).

This makes me think about another thing: The rail-platform wouldn't have much sense without rail. In my first version s12b I've just put a plasma gun there but it is not very useful. If I keep the rail away from the rail-platform, the platform needs to have another reasonable function otherwise the rail-platform doesn't make much sense to be there. I don't see any good reason. Do you have one?
In this case I could modify the map like this:
- I eliminate the rail-platform
- the jumppad that would bring you to the rail-platform, will bring you to the new build platform (the one above base platform and under the rail platform) instead
- the rail will be reachable through this new build jumppad here (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=5275.msg54071#msg54071) (see picture)

Ofc this will change the gameplay, as also said by Gig. The question is: Would you like to have a ctf4ish map without rail-platform ? It is not a technical question. In Germany we say: It is a belly question. :D On the one hand this modifying will probably reduce camping (because you have to jump to the enemy base to get the rail and there you can't camp) but on the other hand the rail-platform is one of the most important map-characteristic of oa_ctf4ish. Without that it is a different map for me.

The other case would be:
- with rail-platform
- rail on the rail-platform (as in oa_ctf4ish)
- with a trap on the rail-platform (e.g. a shooter or crusher)

I would like to know which cases you like more. With or without rail-platform?

I have a newer version (s16) if you want to test it. It is just experimental but you'll see some little changes. Ofc the blue base will be as the red one.
- health and armor are on different places on the base
- I eliminated the battle suits, the quad is enough
- there is no shooter or crusher build in for testing
- the 'G' (Guard rune) shouldn't be in the map in the gamemode CTF (it is a mistake from me)
- there are still several textures to fix as light and bot support.

p.s. sadly I will be able to continue mapping after next Monday

It's highly possible that there's a shader fault. I will check that later.

The runes aren't meant to be regular items, but more like "you take X position by using Y item". That was the original intention in Team Arena/Missionpack, which introduced them.

The runes were the answer to the three new weapons introduced in TA (Nailgun, Chaingun, Prox Launcher), as we discussed here (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=3378.0) long ago, so it makes sense to actually add one or two runes if one of these weapons are in.

Changing the items' properties isn't really recommended. That would mess the natural timing for the item a player might develop. Better design the map bearing in mind the items' default properties.

BTW, I want to add your map to the Tribute Mappack (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4425.0), so there's another reason to keep on developing it. :)

I would go for option 2, rail platform with a trap on it, if possible something similar to the BFG trap in q3tourney6.

I'll check your new version later. :)

Nice to hear that. It's a pleasure doing an official contribute for OA.  I read the rules written in the DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Quake_Tribute_Mappack]wiki page (http://([b). One point is:
There are already some changes that you don't find in Q3A's q3ctf (like the jumppad under the base & the new platform under the rail-platform similar to QL's Space CTF). Removing the rail-platform is definetely too much modification in my oppinion.

Yeah, haven't updated the page in ages. I may drop that rule.

Hi Adriano! If you upload your .map file or do a git push on the Tribute Mappack repo, I'll be sure to include your map on the pack. :)

Hello! Im back!
Given a quick try to S16. I like it enough.
- Attached, a couple of places where items are too near each other (although probably it's too early to point out such things, considering the "alpha"  stage of the map).
- I would not completely remove railgun platforms, because they are a distinctive trait of the map. I would just place the railgun mid-air through the jump required to get there.
- While the extra jumppad to go from base to base (you added one only in the blue base at the moment) seems good to me, I'm not completely sure about the jumppad in the middle of the map bringing you to the yellow armor platform instead of rail platform. I don't know.
- What about re-inserting the moving platform at the top?

PS: NK, did you take a look to those textures/shaders?

It's definitely a shader problem if it affects other maps.

yes, I'll seperate them a bit.

I totally agree with the first sentence. The reason to place it mid-air is to avoid the respawning on the platform, so that a player can't get more ammo on that platform, right? Sounds good. Or do you have another intention?

The extra jumppad was an experiment. It was meant to be there in case that I place the rail near to this extra jumppad instead of placing it on the rail platform. I don't know which other function it could have. There is already a base to base jumppad near to that. But maybe it is just a "nice to have"? Idk.

I don't get it sorry, maybe you can make a screenshot to show the jumppad?

I think it is not necessary anymore because there is no BFG or a replacement for it on that spot.


p.s. I have continued the mapping progress yesterday (after more than a weak of afk). I continue on making it looking nicer. I'll let you know when it is ready.

Exactly. If you don't want to leave the platform competely empty, you may place something else there...

Simply, an alternate route to go to the other base, to make your path a bit more unprevedible. It should be tested with actual playing to be sure this would be good and not bad...

Look at the attached screenshot. I'm just not sure about this change of S16 against the original map. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying I don't know.

In S16, there is a quad damage up there...
Also, it can be used to shoot at rail campers... (Playing very few online, I can't tell how much people actually use it).

Yes, could be good for the gameplay, I'll give it defenetely a try. 

My online experience says that it is not a valuable way to shoot at rail campers. Why? Because it is easy for campers to shoot at you while you are in air (especially at the moment when you are on highest point in air), so you won't even reach the platform. Now that I am writing, I think about putting two nice obstacles/barriers in the air that protects you just on that highest point. 
I even saw players camping on that moving platform, but for normal use it is good to get easy to the BFGs (which won't be included to the new map). The quad damage shouldn't be a problem to reach without the use of the moving platform.

No no, that's not the point I mentioned. Thanks to your attached screenshot I understand what you mean (thx for the pic) and this seems strange because this doesn't occure to me... the jumppad brings me to the rail platform and not to the yellow armor platform (without using air strafe ofc). Look a short video here: http://sendvid.com/86uwjx6e

Yes. You may even move it more towards the middle of the arena -to force players walk a bit more- if you fear it may allow players to capture too quickly.

Is there something bad in using it? I don't know what to tell you. I just thought that, although secondary, it was still a distinctive trait of the map...

The difference of the jumps is smaller than how I drawed. I miss the upper platform by little.
If I set game physics to fixed 125 Hz (pmove_msec 9, pmove_fixed 1, pmove_float 0) instead of accurate physics (pmove_float 1) as I usually use, I even "crash" against the platform side. With fixed 125 Hz physics I can actually get over the upper platform if I reach the jummppad with a jump (which is a small trick to get a little more push by a jumppad).

But in your video, you did not jump... Are you sure you did the test with the same "S16" version of the map?

Hi all, sorry for my late reply. I have lack of time, but I was able to continue with the map in the past days. In the attachment you can find the new version s21c.
What's new?
- new jumppad base to base with plasma gun (mid-air) between
- some redesigning here and there
- some health and ammo placed on other spots. I removed the invulnerability but I will rethink about its usage in the map
- the blue base is the same as the red, so it is ready for some online gameplay test
- fixed flight curve of the jumppad from middle of the map to railplatform, so you won't crash against the platform side, as mentioned by Gig in the post above this here. I tried with the default config (com_maxfps 85, pmove_msec 11, pmove_fixed 0, pmove_float 0) and also with other settings (125 fps: com_maxfps 125, pmove_msec 8 & accurate physics: pmove_float 1) and it works
- the jumppad under the base brings you to the yellow armor instead of the rail platform. The main reason for that is to prevent easy access from own base to the rail


What's missing?
- bot support
- good light distribution and light intensity
- some texture fixes (I've to change the red textures on blue base and I'm not happy with the grate at yellow armor aaand the texture problems shown in shot0015.jpg(no, the surface isn't caulked and yes, Idk right now how to fix that))
- Rail trap ? (like Neon_Knight said:"something similar to the BFG trap in q3tourney6") -> It won't solve camping AT ALL because campers also jump down from the rail platform and camp from their own base (that's what I noticed in online games) BUT why not? =D
- other things to fix that turn out after testing it with players


Yes, I didn't say it before....the moving platform can be an obstacle when you are mid-air above the moving platform and want to reach e.g. the jumppad that brings you to the rail platform. That's why I want to take it out of the way.

Sadly I can't place it mid-air on a high place because there is too much variances in the flight curve when using different settings like pmove_float 1/0 and it also depends on which point of the jumppad you jump on, so that you can totally miss the rail. Placing the rail mid-air on a lower place isn't neither an option because it would be easy reachable in other ways...

Ofc, I will do when it's finished. :)

Interesting... Unfortuntately, I will not be able to test it today...

PS: in my previous post, once I erroneously wrote "pmove_msec 9" instead of "pmove_msec 8", but it is not possible to modify that post anymore.

Nice. I hope you will include bot support with next beta.

I haven't been able yet to get the "flight" items... any hint?

To avoid campers from the upper platform, you could place a crusher trap like q3tourney6... or provide a jumppad which would allow to get at the back of the camper (but I also like the way that jumppad in this version brings you to the yellow armor, although it is a bit reduntant with the teleporter... so I don't know)...

Attached, a small place which "blinks" in blue side, and not in red side.

About the problems of your "15" screenshot...

For the "farther" one, I opened the map in the editor and it looks like you used a grid smaller than 1 there (I set the grid to 1 and see some vertices of the brushes to not touch the grid). This is probably a bad idea. I suggest you to delete those brushes and redo that part, making sure of not using a grid smaller than 1.

For the "nearest" one... it looks like it doesn't use a grid smaller than 1, but for some reason it has got the glitch. Did you already try to delete e recreate those two brushes?

I'll do.
Well, the idea of placing them there is following scenario: You take enemys' flagg and want to jump towards the jumppad (the one withrocket mid-air) but you get pushed from behind by enemys' defenders with shotgun and it happens quite often that you go out wide and fall down. But with those flight items you can be rescued. D: -> Pro: It is a fun little addition to the game - some think you'll fall down but then you rise up.  Con: you can argument to remove it , e.g. because it's the defenders reward that he brings you down to death with his push

If I think further in direction 'additions to the game' I could place the envunerability mid-air between those flight items, so it is hard to get.... just an idea.

I'll build a such crusher trap for the next version  ;)
About the jumppad: Yes it is redundant because it brings you to the same place but one is way is meant to be for the enemys' attackers (silent attack from behind with the jumppad) and the other is for the defenders to get the armor using the teleporter (I could leave the teleporter away but it is much easier and faster to use than the jumppad from that position).

Fixed.

- I'll try to remake the jumppads by my own. Before, I had just copied one of the jumppads and let it rotate by 10°.
- The glitch with the two brushes is fixed.


Again, thanks Gig.

Should note that coming out of teleporter face-first is WRONG.

Because it causes disorientation. Which on an open, see-through map is a big deal.

The old, basic map keeps your aiming direction so you have to turn around manually after the jumppad, otherwise you arrive butt-first. BUT it doesn't throw off your aim.

In the new map you *still* have to turn around to avoid arriving on the platform facing backwards *and* your aim is thrown off. Is it possible to teleport without  affecting player's direction?

Otherwise I'd suggest the following variants:
1.
a) extend the vertical wall down to shield players arriving via teleport
b) remove the jumppad entirely, moving teleport exit instead so that arriving player shoots out of it upwards in an arch towards the platform

2.
a) remove teleporters completely, replacing them with a couple jumppads:
the first one, like it is now, shoots the player at great speed horizontally, arching slightly below the platform to hit the second jumppad that bounces player up to the platform in a *slow* arch.

3. as 2 but separate the vertical wall from the platform so that the player flies under the platform to bounce up and backwards, would still have to turn around manually to face the platform.

4. Copy the old scheme, that part was damn good and well balanced for frantic pursuit.

5. Copy the old scheme, just add the wall.

P.S. Kudos for the flight powerups, I always have fun trying to hit them  :P

P.P.S. The BFG! Not the BFG! *sniff* I am very adept now at getting it in one well-timed jump. I even changed my nick to "BFG-Cheb". Everyone has that trick learned nowadays, total party kills are becoming the norm! Even BFG-on-BFG duels aren't that uncommon  ::) (just visit "CTF for stupid")

Hey Cheb, I didn't take this issue into account, so thank you for let me notice that and also thx for thinking about solutions.
Idk that, I will search for an answer. Ofc that would be interesting because it would allow to keep on your aim perfectly.
What I can do is to change the coming out of the teleporter from face-first to butt-first, so you don't need to turn around (at least the aim isn't thrown off that much)-> see shot0019.jpg
I am trying it out now and I think it is ok but I may optimize that using one of your suggestions 1-3. Variants 4&5 have the disadvantage that they don't have a protecting wall against enemy's base while jumping on that platform.

About news: Sadly the work stucked in the last month, but take a look on the other screenshots. In shot0018 you can see that I moved the jumppad more behind the base because I noticed that the under-base-jumppad is a very powerful way (fast + less enemies to beat to get the flagg) so at least I raised the time for doing the jumps. shot0020 shows a first sketch of the crusher. And I added the envunerability (shot0017)

Hi Adriano.
In one of your screenshots, you said that "invulnerability" powerup respawns after 10 minutes. What's the reason for a such extremely long time?

About teleporters, IIRC a teleport can point to a "target_position" OR to a "misc_teleporter_dest"... according to this page (http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/q3radiant_manual/appndx/appn_b_6.htm#misc), the second one should support "angle" key to set the player's facing direction.

That'd be a great improvement

Still, consider the teleport-less variant (see image).

P.S. I want to make my own tweaked version of the legacy map, but there is too much other stuff to do now. Maybe in January.
I'd
1. Reduced the railing platforms to half their size and made them completely transparent
2. Removed the moving platform thus denying BFG to noobs
3. Mirrored the BFG making the teams equal
4. Moved the BFG further out so that the trickjump to get it is *much* harder, you'd have to begin steering in reverse towards the platform while still above the BFG, so main challenge would be not overshooting the platform.
5. Added a wall to the side platforms (a good idea of yours), growing out of the current jumppad

Hi Gig, the reason I choosed a long respawn time for the invulnerability powerup is because I see it as a bonus powerup: Just nice to have but not necessary and since there are also the flight and quad it is getting a bit too much powerups on that spot. 10 minutes may are too much, Idk right now, I'll see after gameplay.

About teleporter: Yes, I can enter a fixed number for the angle like 0, 10, 17... but to make it perfect it would be cool if I could enter a variable as key that would be equal to the entrance angle at teleporter entry (+180°), so the aim position remains the same after teleport exit. But as said, that is not a dramatic problem, just a little detail.

Nice idea with the vertical long wall at the jumppad near to the platform. Using no teleporter to prevent that the aim position changes is in the first thought a good idea, but if you imagine this solution ingame: when you walk towards the jumppad you are aiming left* and later when you are on the rocket platform you are aiming right* -> big turn needed -> low-sensitivity-players won't love it

*I know, it is difficult to imagine

-> So it isn't that bad to have teleporters that correct the aim direction in the way you need it
@your first post: solution number 1 is my favorite.

Hi all, I'm back with some progress. See video ( http://sendvid.com/d5msx7u9 ) and/or read here:
- direct teleporter exit to rocket platform without jumppad (=> time saving)
- added a crusher where you can walk in and take the "invulnerability" powerup (ofc I remove the other "invulnerability" from the old spot). It's a neat place to hide when you have the enemy flagg. A barrier protects from camping.
- readded the old yellow armor where it was
- now you can also reach the rail platform with the jumppad under the base by doing air strafing
- added an automatic rocket shooter to prevent camping on the new yellow armor platform above the flagg. It shoots after some seconds, but sadly it shoots also when you leave the platform. I wasn't able to find a solution yet that let the shooter shoot ONLY if you stay more than let's say 8 sec ON the platform. If you leave the platform before 8 seconds past then it shouldn't shoot. Maybe you know a solution for that... for now it is like you see in the attachement: a trigger_multiple some units above the platform. When you pass it, it shoots with a delayed time of 8 sec.

Let me know what you like or don't like from the changes!


EDIT:

I removed the camping barrier at the crusher and added +2 damage / sec on that platform. => so you can't stay for ever hidden on that platform. And you can't freely camp there because the inflicted damage disturbes the aiming!

http://sendvid.com/8ydwspbb

2. EDIT:

I think I will add an activator button above the crusher and remove the option that the crusher activates by shooting at it. Why? It is a way too easy to fragg somebody on the railplatform because the surface of the crusher is big. It will be similar to the map 13dream but not such a little activator button as it is there.

And I'll see if I slightly increase the damage/sec.

Update: Due to the invunerability powerup I thought that there must be a protection for the players that get attacked from a player that uses the invunerability powerup. -> So the new yellow armor platform will be solid (so you can't anymore shoot through) and I'll add a new pillar. Just 1 on each base, on the left you have the yellow armor and on the right you have the pillar. Idk if I am going too far from the original map with all these changes. Tell me what you think. Do you like that there is a pillar on the base? I know it is uncommmon to see in the first moment...

For the rocket shooter I'll probably apply an activation button just like I'll do for the crusher.

Nice.

A thing that I noticed (not a problem) in your second video is that, by "hurting" of 2 HP at second, it depletes all of your armor before starting to touch your health (due to armor taking 2/3 of damage, if damage is less than 3 it goes all to armor).

About going somehow "far" from the original map... maybe the quake tribute mappack may contain two different versions of the map, your "remixed" one and a more "classic" one? Just an idea...

PS: those columns do remind me about q3tourney6... are we sure they are not copy-pasted by copyrighted maps, right?

Thx, I didn't know about this. I'll probably set it to 3 or 4 HP / second.

Yes, I like this idea. First I'm gonna finish the remixed version. The classic one won't have all the new features (e.g. under-base-jumppad, crusher, platform with rocket shooter, jumppad with plasma mid-air and so on), it will just have the same (or nearly the same) items and weapons as the original one but with a new design (e.g. the protecting walls at rocket platform remain, I'll readd the moving little platform in the center of the map)

I too am liking the new features you've added adriano! I am looking forward to playing this newest version for myself and seeing how the changes "feel".  :) Is this version available on a public server now?

No, it isn't. I'm sorry I can't give you a finished pk3-file right now. I need to optimize some little things, copy all to red base and add bot support. I won't be able to continue tomorrow but I will at end of the week. I'll upload the map here as soon as it is ready ! Cu soon!

Currently, I don't know a lot of details about the tribute mappack. For me, even the plain OA 0.8.8 version of the map may fit as the "classic" one (in addition to your remix)... maybe with that small texture transparency problem (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=5275.msg54072#msg54072) fixed, if possible.
Probably, Fromhell and Neon Knight will evaluate what to do...

I try to assume a bit:
As far as I understood the tribute mappack contains "remakes" of other games' maps, mostly Quake maps. For now the remake of the "q3ctf4" from Quake3 is the current "oa_ctf4ish" from OA 0.8.8 version, while my version slid into a "remix of the remake" in my oppinion. Several weeks ago (http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=5275.msg54127#msg54127) Neon_Knight wrote that he wanted to include my map to the tribute mappack. We were already talking about a crusher and other things but there is the rule on wikia: but he also said that he may drop that rule. So idk, I'm a bit worried. I'm fine with all. ^^


I think the current "oa_ctf4ish" is on a good point to be the finished remake. The small texture transparency problem and maybe very little design changes (what about the lamp at the rocket platform?) could be added to say it is 100% finished.
In my last post I said I could make a "classic" one with new design and protecting walls at rocket platform. I wouldn't write again the same text probably. The protecting walls e.g. aren't part of "q3ctf4", so that is a bad idea, when you would say that the goal is to make the remake-map as similar as possible to q3ctf4. However... finally I would say it is good to leave the plain "oa_ctf4ish" or a version with very little design changes as the official remake of "q3ctf4" and not something from a possible "classic" version I talked about because it would have design elements that already have my "remixed" version. oa_ctf4ish (from 0.88) and remixed version are easier to distinguish.

gn

Download here (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71172136/s23c.pk3) version s23c (I can't put it in the attachment for some reason)
(https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/12/41/86/15/s23c10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/12418615/319)

You can test it with bots until it's available on a server (I'll let you know when it will happen)
Hf ;)

Thanks to fg the map is now available on :F normal ctf for stupids ( /connect 62.75.152.253:27960 and /callvote map 4ish_test2 ). And once you are there, check out the new layout design (weaponbar, statusbar) on his server. http://www.stupidctf.tk/ for more information. Hf! =)

Tried with bots. Funny!  :)
Although bots do not seem very interested in some of the features of the map...
Also, it looks like it's possible to reach the invulnerability items if you have 90 fps physics (pmove_msec 11, pmove_fixed 1, pmove_float 0)... only if you take the jumppad by jumping down from lateral platforms.

After several games on 0.81 based :F server (people seem to like it =) I found some little things to adjust before the map gets final. I would be glad if you give some feedback.

- one blue teleporter texture is misaligned
- the side wall at rocketplatforms should be a little bit higher
- maybe I modify the rocketshooter: now it shoots in a stabilized direction but I try to let it shoot automatically on the target that is on that platform (I will try)
- it would be nice if I could customize the sound for the crusher (func_door) and the rocketshooter (shooter_rocket)... seems quite tricky to do  
- in 0.81 servers two textures are missing -> idk, should I replace them or put the two missing textures from 0.88 pack into the pk3? Also the 'invunerability' item isn't present in 0.81 version ofc but that does not cause problems to the gameplay because it isn't a central highly used item. The rest of the items... weapons,powerup,health (in my oppinion) are well placed and fit harmonic to the gameplay
- a nice final levelshot is missing

Thx. Yes, they don't seem to like the new features :D Poor them... ;D
I don't see any solution to give them more interest, but nevertheless it is playable with bots.

0.8.1 -.-
That people shouldn't bother us for updates if they're not going to use them.

I would never suggest you to include in a map's pk3 files or shaders with the same exact path+filename of a baseoa file, not even if it's a copy of it. However you may place the copy under a new path/name.

This also means that overriding baseoa sounds with your own sounds by using the same path+filename would be a bad idea: that would affect all maps! If the entity supports the "noise" key use it (but very few do I fear), otherwise I suggest to just accept entity's default sound. Maybe you may link a door to a target_speaker, but I don't know if that would work (maybe a button operated door?) and how much that would be reliable...

About invulnerability, its model and effects have been added in 0.8.8 - in 0.8.5 it was technically working but invisible - in 0.8.1 I don't remember.

About bots, did you already try with item_botroam and playing with their "weight"?

0.8.1 had broken TA items, indeed. AFAIK only the weapons and their respective ammo boxes were fully modelled and working.

NK, what's your opinion about the idea of putting both classic and remixed ctf4 in the tribute package?

Hmmm, then we need a limit on the amount of versions, and if possible, at least one version per map (i.e. for q3ctf4 either oa_ctf4ish or adriano's improved version).

"At least"? Do you mean "at max"? D'oh!

Indeed. I should have said "at most". My bad.

Comprehensible.


- I've already suspected what you said, thx for the advice for the textures, I won't make any copy.
- in fact it is an button operated door with crusher option (not as you see in the video) and no, sadly it doesn't support noise key. I've to try around a bit. Meanwhile I found this: http://ws.q3df.org/level_design/sound_door/
- About item_botroam and their "weight": I hadn't this is mind. I need to try that! Good tip!

So, you may be interested into reading this: (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Bot_play

About copy of textures, if you place them under a different path/name (e.g. textures/adriano01/wall01.jpg), it's okay.

Uhm... I still hope there may be some room for talking about this stuff in the future.
On one hand, I thought the tribute map pack was mainly meant as a way to "save" some well-known 0.8.x maps which will not be included in OA3 main package. A way to continue allowing people to play "hystorical" maps such as a ctf4 very similar to the one from Q3A.
On the other hand, I appreciate the efforts Adriano put into his "remix" map, and I think it would be nice to have it in some more or less "official" map package, too.

A possible solution I can think about may be including the original map in the tribute mappack, and include the remix version in OACMP volume 2, if and when we will find time and resources to put it together (which may even be before OA3 is released, considering for it we already have several maps from Akom74 which are like 90% finished).

Hi all, it has been passed nearly 2 months since my last post. I know and I am sorry for that. I had some private troubles. Just want that you know that this project isn't dead. You can see the latest changes in the attachment.
The next two steps will be: redesign the crusher and using item_botroam's "weight" feature.

When playing @ F: CTF for stupid I noticed the same old bug:

If the flag falls onto a jumppad (the one below the flag platform, in that event) no one can touch it. Even when falling directly onto it the player is catapulted away before touching the flag.

It's the same with the classic old map: if flag falls onto any jumppad it is VERY hard to get it again. Most effective techniques for returning such a flag include falling *beside* the jumppad into the void if the flag is at the jumppad edge. I saw it happen too many times. Especially frustrating when, like, four of your teammates jump onto your flag to no effect, then one enemy jumps onto it, grabs it and scores :mad:

Please give the jumppad surfaces some property that makes the flag respawn by touching them. Like they were lava or something.

I suppose just placing a thin common/nodrop brush may fix the problem...

However I can guess it would be good for the shader of a jumppad to have surfaceparm nodrop on its own...

Good observation, cheb. Thank you for sharing it here. Your advice is precious. I'll apply what was said by Gig. Thanks Gig. :)


The last thing I was working is the redesign of the crusher. See screenshots. It isn't finished, I try to get some fog on it. Again you can go on top of it, but to prevent camping you get 8 dmg/sec + 40 dmg/sec when you hit the lava things.

Fog in an open area? In this game?  :-\ Good luck...

I suppose it depends on the fog, on the new czest1tourney I use fog on the bottom of the map, right below the lowest playable area.

But if I understood correctly, he's planning to use it just in that specific area above the crusher you can see in his screenshots, which is not the same thing...

There shouldn't be problems, as far as I can tell. He might have to test with nodraw and nodrawnonsolid, though.

Forget the fog. It doesn't make sense.... also for the reason that with fog you won't see anything from outside to inside of the crusher (and that is no deal). I just wanted smth that disturbes the visibility for them who are on top of the crusher and look outside & isn't solid. Sorry, that was stupid from me. :s

What about some sort of energy field shader? For a wip (currently in stall) map of mine, I think I removed some stages from an existing shader (obviosuly on a copy of it under a different path!), maybe something called like "teslacoil", to get an energy field adapt for my semi-transparent double-sided teleporter...

Double post. Please delete thia one.

Yea probably, but I've no idea till now where to apply it in a good looking way. I'll see,ty. Anyway there are more important things to do on this map than this...

Uh normally I would like to surprise you right now with the final version of the map. I had all things done + some extras. But the final compile throws up that what you see in the attachement  :-X
I used the script from OA wikia (took me about 16 hours on i5, 4GB RAM (it doesn't use all my 8 GB but that's a different problem)):


Do you have an idea what I make wrong? Fast compile in a minute (BSP -meta -light -faster) works without problems but has low FPS

Do you mean these examples?
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Compiling_and_packaging#Some_building_script_examples

Yes, exactly. I used the "Final compile script (Windows):"

Does the same happen also if you just use Radiant's stock compile options?

I just tried the fast options (single test) from Radiant and they work. This night I will run the (final) option ... it is the second last of the list... and let see what comes out tomorrow :) I could try like that till I have the parameter that causes this problem. thanks Gig


EDIT: the Radiant's stock compile options work for me. Tomorrow I'll post the map ;)

It may still be useful to find out which one is the compile parameter which slows down the compiling that much. Neon Knight may consider removing that parameter from the example in the wiki, to same some days of compiling to people...

The really bad thing is that I don't even remember what does each parameter. :S

I know there was a parameter which unnecesarily bloated the map which FH told me to abandon since it gave underworks2 the size of Quake. I need to review (and, once again, relearn -.-) everything.

I've tested it...it is the parameter -vis
While compiling the step "PassagePortalFlow" take all that hours :P

And by the way... here the final version of the map. What I've done is to complete the design and added nodrop at jumppads and botroam. I know there are very little texture problems like under the flight item and under the jumppads but I couldn't remove them...

...anyway... at the end I think it got a really funny map to play... enjoy it!  :)

(https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/12/41/86/15/oa_ctf10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/12418615/340)

Well, in space-platform maps using VIS is almost unnecessary since you're seeing the entirety of the level at all times and there's no need to cull anything.

However, not using VIS at all in non-space-platform maps does not sound a very good idea...
and it sounds a bit strange to me that the "final" compile options of Radiant do not include the VIS stage at all... :-/ (I haven't checked yet).

No no, I might explained bad. The final compile of Radiant DOES include VIS. The compile is nearly as slow as the OA wikias' example. But in OA wikias' example was something that caused me that untextured problem.

Hi Adriano :)

I've found a strange bug.... moving near the flag and watching up, some textures disappear...

(http://imgur.com/I0Zs42P.jpg)

(http://imgur.com/Dp3gJSv.jpg)

;)

Thanks Akom, I updated the map (refreshed attachement above). Now should be ok.

That could be the use of common/caulk as a visible surface.

Exactly ;)

Good, but:
- In gametypes which use deathmatch spawn points, massive telefrags happen. This is bad. Please add at least 8 team-free spawn points (better if 12 or even 16).
- Anti-rail-camp trap isn't very effective when playing against bots, due to them rarely shooting at the trap trigger. I have no idea if there is some way to tell them to shoot there more often (I don't know if a floating item_botroam there may help, maybe not).
- The megahealth (in the middle of the map) seems like floating a bit too high... is it just an impression of mine?

Do you need some help to fix it? Common/caulk should never be used on visible surfaces... why did you use it there? Maybe you wanted common/nodraw instead?
PS: For some reason, I haven't been able to view the grid texture disappear like in Akom's screenshot...

UPDATE:
As seen in the attachments, those grids shaders still have the (relatively small) glitch of resulting "semi-transparent" for some other shaders, maybe those which are semi-transparent in turn (see the red teleporter, or the health bonuses). I don't know how to fix that.
Who's the best shader expert, here? I suppose Fromhell... any thoughts?

@Gig:
- DM-spawnpoints: done. 16 spawn-points.
- Anti-rail-camp trap: sadly the bots don't seem to have the "intelligence" of using the activation button for the trap. The item_botroam give just a weight to which point the bots should go. I didn't find any other way, neither.
- megahealth: No, you are right. I did it for purpose to be easier reachable....e.g. when you come directly from the teleporter that normally brings you to the rocket&ya-platform and want to to take the jumppad to rail (a situation that is very common while playing)
- Common/caulk: Hmm where did you see that texture on a visible surface under the flight item? (look attachement) seems very strange that it causes this little issue
- grid texture disappear: you didn't see it because I had updated the problem meanwhile :)


Somehow I can't add anything to attachment right now ( "The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator. " )... the pk3 has nearly exact same size as before if you ask

Didn't you foresee a "trigger hurt" slow damage trap in some previous version of the map, to prevent camping there?
Excuse me, where did I say I saw caulk under the flight item? :-/
That happens at times. Unless the file is >3 MB, then we can only inform Fromhell about the problem, and she should fix it.

Sorry for the confusion ^^ Now while rereading the message I see that I misinterpret it ^^

No (as far I can think), only on top of the crusher. But I didn't understand why you ask this :)

Because I kinda recall some previous version of the map which had some kind of energy field (trigger_hurt) which affected campers, but I don't remember at which floor.

And because you may also place one anyway, to prevent excessive camping also in botplay mode.

No I go for the idea to make the anti-camping-traps/places an optional on those places, so that you freely decide when it is too much camping up there. I don't want to make those places nearly unpossible to use.  Let them be there up there and let them wonder if smth is wrong staying there too much  :giggity:

By the way, the last updated map here (https://workupload.com/file/QBpJsXA).

Good, but I just found a bug.

See attached screenshot: for some reason, that bot got there without being killed, and so is stuck there at the bottom of the map. Please check the trigger_hurt which kills falling people, it may need to be enlarged (e.g. to reach the bottom of the map).

Also, I noticed that the "flight" item only lasts 5 seconds: considering how difficult is to get it, shouldn't the reward last a bit more?

Also, it's a VERY BAD IDEA to mess with anything's spawntime. If the item cannot fit in the level, then it may not belong in the level in first place.

@Gig:
- yes thanks for reporting the problem with trigger_hurt
- about flight item: Yea the 5 seconds seem short in a first thought... there are meant to reach the quad, the yellow armor (near to rocket)+Megahealth or the base just in time... so that you can continue playing normal after reaching them. Take in mind that the flight velocity isn't that fast...it is faster when you jump normal around the map, so a longer lasting time would just slow down.
You're right, it may be still too risky for some people and for other it is about finding the right technique to get it easily, but it is just a little optional and sometimes you get it when you are not intendet to get it... i mean in case of when you get pushed down

@Neon_Knight:
Spawntime. Yes if anything, then absolutely. Especially for weapons and armor (my oppinion). In my version I only changed the spawntime of flight item and invunerability to 30 sec. For me it seems ok in terms of spawntime, isn't it?

Space is dark, boring and done to death. Could be skybox like the one of the wtf33 map be used ? I mean, an endless sky with a brighter strip along the horizon, a bit like the Zen world of Half-Life?

It's not as boring and also helps orient yourself.

P.S. There are not enough GPL skyboxes  :-X

For platform/space maps, it's possible to build Unreal-like skyboxes, but you need at least six surfaces (a la Quake II) and a specific actor in order to make it work. oa_dm3 (a non-platform/space example), oa_pvomit and oa_shine use such kind of skyboxes.

Also some skybox from OACMP Vol. 1 are GPL'd.

:)

Yep, that also works too. Good one, Akom. :)

I saw this map a few times on F: ctf for stupid, playing it wasn't very fun and it eventually fell off the roster.

My thoughts (as I remembered of its existence):

* Anti-camp is done too well. And is too complex. My suggestion:

1. Scrap the crushers altogether.
2. return normal railing platforms, but shape them like spatulas with an aircraft tail. I.e. with a long thin beam where railgun spawns, with a 'vertical stabilizier' to serve as rocket impact point to send the unwary camper to his aaaaah-splat. A siren should also sound when anyone steps on the tail.
3. Move these platforms further back so that the camper can't jump down directly onto the flag. Also if he falls off the tail it's into the void. Also, so that he is less obscured from the guys down below if he sits close to the front.
4. jumppads from the center should lead to the railing platform as in the classic version, necessitating braking in the air to land on the flag. Also, this way, shooting the carrier's butt "helps" him overshoot  >:D which is classic.
5. Return the bfg. Place it down below, where only a guy who grabbed Flight can get it.


P.S. It turns out, while railing was annoying, it was an essential part of the progenitor map's dynamics.

Video of some playing this map (F: for stupid)
It pops up rarely but it's there.
http://chebmaster.com/video/oa-ctf4ish-evolution-cheb.avi  (265 Mb)

I didn't notice the map had that camping-friendly spot you used at the beginning of the video...

Not on F: for stupid because if you stay in one place too long you asplode earning minus 10 points :giggity:

Also, not very useful now as people learned how to shoot rockets there properly.
But yeah, initially you only had to duck to be unharmed by nearby explosions. :P

Hey guys, I saw your posting theses days... after that day that someone in-game motivated to bring this project forward.... so thank you very much to all!
So what I have been doing last days? Continue developing the map with one mission: make it easier to play and nicer to look at.
In particular this means:
- new sky
- crusher easier to activate with a big arrow, so its usage is easy to understand
- flight items are placed better to be easier to reach. also they have a bigger platform to land on. they also last 2 seconds longer I think -> time tnough to get rocket+mega+quad. not sure about adding also bfg, cheb. what do the other think?
- side platforms are larger: you can jump directly on other base
- there were in total 3 platforms above flagg-> I removed one and placed yellow armor on top platform. this top platform hasn't anymore that weird auto-damage thing BUT an anticamper-rocketshooter xD
- enlarged some other area in base/near base so you have optional place to hide when carrying the flagg
- removed camper-friendly place as described by cheb
- placed a fan as jumppad
- made floating weapons more visible
- last but not least is just a funny addon which won't get to final I think: the flagg that rise up   :o  ;D

The viewable resumè of all this is here: https://streamable.com/s0xgp


Now I'll take some pause on mapping and continue when I have again more spare time

Cheers!

Guessing if bots will like the flag going up, and what happens if the flag is returned while the platform is up...

can't answer the first (but I guess the same). second: the flagg returns always to its base station which stays always on platform... so yes, if platform is up, flagg returns up

to be clear: it remains a funny idea, but this feature goes against simplifying the map

And if the platform returns while the platform is moving up?

:) same. always and ever on the platform

Just remember that platforms are not lag-compensated and behave poorly/inconsistent with large pings. Which could be very frustrating.

Just my experience with the bfg platform in the original map.

You landing on it is uncertain. You can land safely only to find a second later that you wewre corrected to plummeting into void.
Its movement may be jerky and uneven, it jitters back and forth along its path.
It could jam if someone is fragged on it. As in completely stop moving, just vibrating in place.

I think it is worth investigating if the platform in the original map is implemented properly and if yes, then be wary of them.

Uhm... it almost sounds like they used "func_train" instead of "func_bobbing" (which is what is usually used to make a platform going back and forth only horizontally or vertically)...

Checking oa_ctf4ish source (not the "Evolution" version)....
...
exactly. I can see a func_train and no func_bobbing there.

By the way, in OA3 "trains" will not be blocked anymore. But since the change is in gamecode, older mods will continue to work the old-fashioned way.