0.8.0 roadmap

[zuma]

This combination of settings makes me angry all the time I see a player that use them.

Damn , if u have a DSL connection you cannot set cl_maxpackets to 30 , 'cause u warp and other players have difficult to hit you.

In many pb enabled q3 servers , you will probably get banned.

DON'T SET cl_maxpackets < 100 if you have a DSL connection.

i was on 128kbit (16kb/s (LAN cable)) for long time and i used maxpackets 100, all was fine. its the high ping and lag spikes that u see. maybe on analogue telefone line with shitty ATC (common in russia) you would want to set maxpackets 30.
also u would think- 128kbit? that dude must be lagging? i had 30 ping to sweden, which is about 500km away, and 60 ping to russia servers, which is also 500km away. also i played korean mmorpg fine, which is 2 oceans away.

[fufinha]

for info :

Tested 8 servers today on 0.7.1 (well it only took a minute to verify ) which I had problems with and I found that in every instance the r_detailtexture thing was the cause of all issues, some of the configs I had were incredibly low in detail. I do not have a great deal of free RAM,  could that possibly be a likely cause of performance issues if the game is trying to free up and allocate RAM  or do these get loaded at start up?

The map i used to test was xcm_tricks2 in the second set of strafe lanes. I use jacks texture mod, the only other thing I could note is that there are transparent glass /windows.

[zuma]

could i ask the developers not to mess with openal anymore? the realisation in 7.6 and 7.7 is nice, oa runs on slacky out of the box.
for 7.1 it complained about missing libopenal.so or smth like that. so i dl it, compile it and install (it didnt give any errors or messages about dependencies). but then oa 7.1 still didnt run. ok i left it at that.
next time i wanted to try out the 7.7 binary without SDL input from RN (i havent played 7.1 before, my 1st try was 7.6). it complained again about openal missing. so i tried to install it using slapt-get. openal was in the repository but it showed dependancy- smpeg and svglalib. ok i installed those 1st and then openal using slapt-get.
so i could run the RN binary but i didnt like the sens feeling, too used to SDL i guess. when i ran back the original oa binary of 7.7 it gave me lower fps, i could feel it on oasago2, it was way jerkier. so i removed the installed packages (smpeg, svgalib and openal) using slapt-get again, run back the 7.7 binary and it was fine again.
so i ask not to mess with different openal implementations, its fine like it is in 7.7 =)

[fromhell]

but if we don't have openal then we miss a lot of cool things like >22khz sampling rate without crashes (this is why around some 1.27 q3 patch they goofed up the sound code that freezes the game on music playback at anything other than 22khz so they forced it to 22khz regardless due to this horrid bug) and also positional audio (which is damn well important to gameplay) !

[jackoverfull]

imho the current implementation, as explained some time ago by sago007, it's a very good choice: if the system has openal oa will use it, if not it will not refuse to start.

the only (minor) problem i can see is on some posix (and windows?) machines: if the openal libs aren't installed in the usual path i have the impression that oa will not find them and will start without openal.
maybe this could be solved searching the libs in the same folder of oa and instructing the people that wants openal but has those systems to place some symlinks here...

[zuma]

7.6 and 7.7 works fine without need to install anything. should stick with this implementation, whatever it is.

[fufinha]

A few weeks ago I was running 0.7.7 and it had a nice effect where you could hear where rail shots were hitting (when the player missed).  I never heard that before... was this an addition or maybe an audio setting set to on with a new config? It was a great way to guess the location of enemys or team mates if you hear where the missed shots are hitting.

I guess this post will look stupid if it's some audio effect I never knew I had

[Ironwall]

Any update on the progress of 0.8.0? It would be nice to have some idea of the projected release date.

[fromhell]

It would be nice to have some idea of the projected release date.

August 8
i'm rapidly rushing myself to work on 0.8.0 and i know we are going to miss some things we've wanted for this release like a new gauntlet

[Ironwall]

Thanks, fromhell. Hopefully the Ubuntu folks will add it to the repositories in a timely manner.

[CFQ]

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[odigo]

Just gonna give my two cents on taking the various options (that's right, OPTIONS..not cheats) out of the next release.  Taking out vertex is not a gigantic deal, if you don't want people to be able to tweak their config (which is what made q3 so f'ing popular btw, along with the gameplay) then just play your games single player, never have to worry about cheaters there.  My view on cheating is that if it's not altered files as in going in to map files and making walls grids or see-through, or a third party program that will move your mouse for you, then it's not cheating.  If you say it was put in for old hardware, I'll take your word for it since I never talked to anyone from id about it.  So while you are forcing everyone to play with dark settings, shadows, more difficult to see, etc, why not take out the ability to change gamma, brightbits, overbrightbits, intensity (oh wait you're taking that too!).  A little birdie told me you don't like non standard fov's either?  Perhaps those are cheating because it lets you see more side to side.  By that I assume you walk around wearing horse blinders all day and just look at what is right in front of you. 

Now to the more logical part.  IF people are convinced that vertex lighting is advantageous, why would they not use it?  Maybe I'm just coming from a different background, but if I play a game then I would like to get better and improve in as many ways as possible in that game.  So if vertex lighting helps someone see better, which uh is kind of important?..to see what you're shooting at? then that's just ridiculous to take that out.  It was mentioned that jack thompson (HIJACKTHOMPSON) heavily edited his config file.  I did the same and I'm proud of the time I put in to it and the result.

To me this just boils down to people wanting to find an excuse to call players, who have taken the time to explore all the options that were meant to be in the q3 engine and found vertex, cheaters.  Speaking of cheating, word on the street is that scripts are cheating, such as rocket jump scripts.  I wouldn't call them cheating, but perhaps frowned upon.  Do I have one?  several.  But it's easier and more effective to just learn to rocket jump properly.  And get this, another little birdie told me that Ms. Developer Lady uses a script to strafe (if that's the truth, ROFL).

So here are some more commands that should be controlled or just taken out completely:

r_gamma
r_mapoverbrightbits
r_overbrightbits
r_intensity
sensitivity
cg_fov
cg_thirdperson
say_team
messagemode1
bind
+button3
+moveup

In regards to that screenshot you posted where you are supposed to be invisible, those must be some ridiculous settings and unless you post here telling everyone how to get it like that, I think you're safe from those cheating bastards.  Also, you can see the person with invisibility even with vertex 0, you just have to look harder.

Most of this was towards fromhell but also to IronWall and ThePlayer, who think I'm an illegit hacker because I may or may not use vertex light.

Odigo

P.S. - You should listen to sago if you're intent on "getting rid of it," just take it out of menus and you won't have problems.
P.S.S. - I think it's apparent that I have no intention of downloading 0.8.0, but this was the appropriate place to post.

[fromhell]

So here are some more commands that should be controlled or just taken out completely:

r_gamma
r_mapoverbrightbits
r_overbrightbits
r_intensity
sensitivity
cg_fov
cg_thirdperson
say_team
messagemode1
bind
+button3
+moveup

oh the drama. Get over it. Vertex light is a cheat and you know it. Not only that but it's an obsolete cvar considering today's hardware and even integrated graphics. The only legit use of vertex light is if you have an ATI Rage Pro, which were prevalent on OEM machines in 1999 still (hence the existing of that option). It doesn't exist to fill your advantageous needs but it sure is abused for it.
Battlefield 2 and Counter Strike has no similar cvars and they're monumentally more popular than Q3A.

[Ironwall]

Just wanted to give you some support, fromhell, since this thread is mostly filled with people very upset about your decision. I'm very much looking forward to 0. and hope these types of changes help level the playing field between those that choose not to exploit the game options and those that choose to do so. Before anyone gets angry, let me say that everyone has their own definition of cheating, and the more conservative people (e.g. those that oppose using vertex lighting) are obviously at a significant disadvantage in OA right now. It doesn't matter whether those on the conservative or liberal side of tweaking are "right" (they're opinions, so no one can say that either is more correct, anyway). As a "conservative" player, the changes will certainly be beneficial to me by leveling the field, though I know more liberal tweakers will find their play hampered. People who don't like the changes can always play an older version or fork the project, so there isn't much reason to get too bent out of shape (though debate and discussion are obviously warranted).

As an aside, in response to Odigo/porn's question about why I don't use those types of tweaks:
In my opinion (which you may not share), it's analagous to athletes taking steroids. The debate is really quite similar, with some saying there's no reason not to do something that enhances your performance and is available to anyone (it can also be argued that it levels discrepancies due to genetics) while others prefer what they call a more "pure" or "level" environment. It's obviously not worth getting into that debate here. I'm simply pointing out that there are two sides to the issue and providing a well-known and oft-debated example to make my position clear without going into a long explanation. The complication is that pro sports have rules about steroids (so taking them is cheating regardless of whether they should be allowed), and OA/quake has no comparable central authority (fromhell can't fine you for doing something she doesn't want you to do). It's an open question. I stand by my position, and you are free to disagree. Ethics aren't a simple thing, and we must each draw the line where we feel it belongs.

[odigo]

(IMO) vertex light is not a cheat, and no I don't know it, as you say.  I think this is honestly the first time in my life that I have been so baffled by someones opinion that the only comment that comes to mind is "What?!?"  That being said, I'm done calling you names, we're friends now.

As for leveling the playing field, if you think that someone using vertex light is the reason they are better than you, then you are sorely mistaken.  Sure they might get one or two more kills per game because of it, but they are better because they have either been playing longer, trying harder, listening to tips/strategies and taking them to heart, or they have a natural talent.  And if you think that getting rid of shadows is part of it, try cg_shadows 0 and see if that's cheating.

As for the commands I listed, LOL, yeah.  Seriously though, what about r_singleshader and r_fullbright ?  Don't know if those work in OA but the former makes the whole map look like a black and white checkered grid, hard to navigate but easy to see models, and the latter is essentially a wallhack but you can still see little sparkly things on the walls so you can get around quite nicely...plus see through walls.  Enjoy.

[Ironwall]

Ah, but sometimes one or two kills decides a game. Many CTF matches are won by a single cap, and it only takes one kill to stop the flag from getting capped or to protect the carrier. Obviously, I'm not nearly as skilled as the top players, but if you have a team of people who use such tweaks fighting against a team that doesn't, even the one or two kills per game per player you mentioned can quickly balloon into a much greater advantage. Putting my abilities aside, what if it were a clan match? If you have two roughly equally-skilled clans playing, such tweaks can become a deciding factor.

[pulchr]

you can never make it an even playingfield since you can't force people to use exactly the same settings/hardware. it's just impossible. and sadly - this discussion is pointless - fromhell has made clear that vertex is going out (how stupid it imo ever may be). it wouldn't make a difference if we had a poll and the result was 1047 to 1 if we should keep or remove vertex lighting. fromhell would still have the final word. discussion/arguments doesn't help in this case.

now i'm not saying a poll would end that way, just trying to make a point =)

[CFQ]

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[fromhell]

"modern systems?" Give me a break, a Voodoo2 can handle the game without vertex light. Vertex light option is designed for the earlier, 96/97 gen cards that did not have multitexturing which every card since 1998 pretty much had. Multitexturing speeds things up and makes very little difference in performance when switching from vertex and versa. Vertex lighting doesn't even improve performance on 486 or Pentium machines with a Voodoo2.
Your REAL performance issues come from r_detailTextures, since unlike Q3A, OA takes advantage of this cvar to put some extra detail layers on some shaders.

And i've already stated that removing Vertex (and I mean REMOVING) is final. There will be no amount of persuasion to make me think otherwise.

Unleash your Godwin's Law now.

[CFQ]

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[fromhell]

well one of the things i will replace in OA is the what-is-pretty-looking bullet impacts, for classic style bullet impacts that won't choke fillrate. This is the reason why machinegun/shotgun fire is so slow for you guys because I wanted to try a fun convincing shader experiment.

I mean lol, check it out

[CFQ]

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[pulchr]

how about adding the "r_detailTextures" as a toggle in the video settings menu?
it would fit in right among the others like wall marks, ejecting brass and stuff.

i don't think there's that many people aware that r_detailTextures is in the game?

is it on as default?

[fromhell]

is it on as default?

yes
r_detailTextures requires a restart, so it belongs in the video menu, taking Vertex light's place

[jessicaRA]

openal causes system hangs for me if anything else is trying to use the sound card (even windows sounds) and its also very choppy so i have to use the alternative or not hear what is going on and get hangs where i have to pull the plug out to get it working again.  about vertex lighting...  to me it seems a grey area, if one uses it and another doesnt its an advantage but the option is there for both at the moment to use it if they want the same visibility.  it may not be so bad it being removed, there is the option to use bright skins on both sides for clan matches .  lightmap and dark areas can only improve your awareness to subtle stuff outside of any serious games.  you know like how often you only see a part of the other player nip past through a gap...  then know what they are going for..  if playing before in lightmap you would likely see it much better when you switch to promode or bright skins for a serious game.  i know my awareness goes up when i play in lightmap mostly then play with rat (the bot) in cpma once in a while.  really its not the end with vertex gone...  and too bad about the new gauntlet, i think the quake 3 gauntlet is much cooler at the moment than the current lol.  vertex may not be so much an issue to me as another tho, because i get 125fps at full quality on most maps but someone with a lower end card, not a mid range card like mine may need some game settings changed to get 125fps at 1280x1024, like maybe picmip but vertex may be a stretch.  i am just tossing some things in to the discussion here, like reminding you of bright skins for player visibility and another option to get a higher frame rate.  i only use the promode ones when in promode btw, where everyone has very visible characters.  i mean if its not a fair game its only worth playing if you are a god like player and most are not, except maybe vo0 the human aimbot.  i'm looking forward to 0.8.0.  if the clans keep sticking to older versions because of the new mouse input and vertex i'll always have trouble playing because the mouse doesnt work correctly for me in those versions so i keep having to either open the console and type \-attack or click away until it works again which means you are an easy frag and outweighs any other benefits even a wallhack could give lol.