am_mckinleyish2: Another pseudo-rendition :P

[Neon_Knight]

As promised here, I was working on a new adaptation, this time is the QW/Q2 CTF classic McKinley Base (or McKinley Revival, as you wish ) renamed McKinley Retribution. ATM there's no underwater exit, and no BFG, but it has Chaingun (in the middle) Grappling Hook and Nailgun. (In both bases)

It supports all CTF-based gametypes: CTF, 1FCTF, Harvester, Overload, CTF Elimination & DD.

Here are some screenshots from the original one (McKinley Base) and here's a screen of a flag base in Q2CTF1. The idea, like all "-ish" maps, is to make a similar structured map, but not an equal structured one.

Old changes:

Changes:
- Removed/replaced all light sources from the map.
- Added underwater access to bases.
- Structural changes.

EDIT: New version.

Changes:
- Raised water, so it's now possible to leave water the intuitive way.
- Changed water lighting. (That old color was unnatural, but I think this new color is more unnatural.)
- Added some light to railgun spots.

More changes:
- Aesthethic changes: redone flares, improved level geometry, added bases to objectives, added lighting to sniper spots
- Clipping retouched, and also I've added some clusterportals.
- Added grappling hook to info_player_start and team_CTF_<team>player/spawns. Now players will spawn with Gauntlet, Machinegun and Grapple. Q2 Style. ^^

Changes:
- Enlarged access
- Item placement changed. Hopefully this map wouldn't be no more an 1-0 map:
  * Changed Health 50 at bases with Health 25.
  * Switched Chaingun and Body armor.
  * Added Chaingun ammo to central water.
  * Changed Chaingun ammo at underwater chamber with two Health 50.
  * Added stimpacks and armor shards to middle area.

b1 changes:
- Players won't start with grapple anymore.
- Replaced water entrance by a chamber which has a teleporter on it. This chamber has Guard & Shotgun.
- Fixed lighting. Now it won't look as a shiny level anymore.
- Redistributed ammo.
- Raised ceiling on bases.
- Replaced improvised stairs @ bases with jumppads which goes from the floor onto the respective sections.
- Added another ramp to the flag.
- Added arrow & weaponspot signals, from the replacements I've done.

McKinleyish2-a1 changes:
- Base layout changes, the item placement has been mostly kept:
  * Chaingun moved to the water.
  * Two direct & "easy" entrances to flag bases. A one-way exit. (which can be entrance by RJing) And an "indirect" entrance by going underwater.
  * CTF, Overload, DD: Item team Invulnerability+RA in the middle passage. This team is moved onto the water for 1FCTF & Harvester.
  * Flag base changed: No more a copy of McKinley's old efforts.

a1v2 changes:
- Bot & player clipping.
- Railgun spot clipping to avoid escape from it.
- Hinting ^^ Now shouldn't be possible, from any point of the flag bases, to make Q3/OA renderize the center area. (Or unnecesary things)
- Moved ammo to bases.
- Fixed a mistake in the .arena file. It would try to read am_mckinleyish instead of am_mckinleyish2.

a2 changes:
- Moved RL near the entrances.
- Added subacuatic chamber and Quad.

To do in the next version:
- Add arrows guiding to bases.
- Switching teleports going to sniper spot and water passage?
- Maybe bringing Grapple back as weapon to start? In 0.8.1 will be a pain in the arse, but considering all the changes Sago made to it on OAX it can work now.

To don't: (NOTTODO on this map)
- Remove water. I won't do that, no matter what the excuse is. Period.
- Remove Invulnerability. I'm against that "let's put TA stuff out of OA" campaign and nobody will convince me of the contrary. Period.

Screenshots:


Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u3u7GsDysw

Download

Thanks to onykage for the hosting. And all of those who has tested already the map.

[PsYthe]

Neon water pools! ^___^

Only looked at screenies and I like it as it looks simple but I should probably not say much since I didn't bother to download it

[cosmo]

Looks colourful and nice.
I didn't download it yet but I will soon. As I can judge from your screenshots go for more details please.

[Neon_Knight]

Details are my weakest point. -.-
All of my maps are lacking of them. :/

[PsYthe]

Okay, I downloaded it.

Honestly the things that I didn't like were how the water looked flashy on the surface when underwater, not being able to climb out of the water, and the grappling hook. Grappling hook seems useless.

Otherwise thumbs up but like how it has been mentioned, detail wouldn't hurt. Adding a trim around the place could be a start, I would think.

[qubodup]

It seems well playable above fluid level, but I really don't like the disability to leave the water the intuitive way.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/tags/ammckinleyish/

1 bug: http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/2882904975/

[cosmo]

I gave it a run through and as I said your lighting is great. And I love McKinley.

The water is easy to fix by raising it's surface a bit so everybody is able to climb out (bots will love you for that) and the nasty flickering will disappear.

Adding the grapplinghook reminds me of Q2 so much and the feelings about McKinley return.
Don't place the grapplinghook in the map as a picup but give it to every player when they spawn if you really want to include it. Your map should play fine without.

So there is my next point:
I'll attach a screenshot that shows your flag rooms which are way too small compared to the Q2 version. I miss all those crates and huge storage racks were players were able to climb up. I guess the original flag rooms were about 4 - 5 times bigger than yours. Don't get me wrong. If you want to keep it small then go for it. I just wish that all the racks are easier to access. For me the flag rooms are disappointing as they don't offer much tactics / obstacles / covers. I know you don't have much space left to expand those rooms but I think the rises that lead to the rooms are too steep. If you lower them you'll get more space to have bigger flag rooms.

I checked your r_speeds and they hit 7k without any details in your map. You can do an improving hinting for VIS before your final release but think about the light sources you used on your walls. There's quiet a lot of them and they have lots of faces. I'm not sure if they are the main reason why you are already at 7k.

If you allow here's a suggestion: remove 75% of them and replace the remaining with better models / brushes (and fancy textures). I know OA lacks of good mapmodels but there will be more soon. I'm working on a huge CTF map with kick52 and we need tons of nice stuff and I hope there will be some new sconce.
Have some kind of alcoves, slots, lips or other trim to decorate your lights. There are so many q3map2 parameters to play with.

Don't take me too serious. I hope to help. These are just my first thoughts.

[Timedude]

Okay, I think all my thoughts have already been mentioned, but I'll give you a run-through anyway. First, I hate da grappeling hook. While I may have requested it on occasion, I really don't care for it. I don't really see how it's useful in this level, but anyway... I agree about the water (which I suppose the grappling hook could help with, but), it's basically like shooting fish in a barrel. Which is entertaining for a little while, but it quickly looses appeal. I did like the bases and the sniper spots overlooking the central chamber, though. Also, somehow Grunt 9the orange s_mrine) keeps jumping out that sniper window... I kinda wonder how...

So, at the end of the day, this map shows lots of promise, but it needs some refinement.

-Timedude

[onykage]

I'll have a look at it and see what i can do about the detail brushes =)

[Neon_Knight]

I'll upload tonight a new version of this map.

[Neon_Knight]

New version of the map, with a direct link. I couldn't attach it for its size. (>1MB)

[Neon_Knight]

Updated download link, thanks to onykage for it. ^^

Any comments for it?

[sago007]

Any comments for it?

Unless I have downloaded the wrong map I believe it still isn't possible to leave the water intuitively.

[Neon_Knight]

Version in this topic is the most newest. onykage is working on detail in this map. I should learn from him. :/

AFAIK in both originals (yes, I know I said "it shouldn't be like the original" but...) you can't leave the water in the normal form.

[PsYthe]

Imo, would be better if you could get out of the water normally, newbs will get lost and drown... took me a while to figure out how to get out.

[Neon_Knight]

Ok... by popular request I'll add that. -.-

[Neon_Knight]

Well, I've uploaded the map. Download link and screens, as usual, in the first post. I've raised the water by popular request.

Main issues now are: bots getting stuck in some places while going for the flag, and only use water way instead of both ways, water and normal, despite all the clipping and "item_botroam"ing I put. -.- (item_botroams aren't no more now) By now, these are the changes:

- Raised water, so it's now possible to leave water the intuitive way.
- Changed water lighting. (That old color was unnatural, but I think this new color is more unnatural.)
- Added some light to railgun spots.

To do:
- Where should I put some detail?
- Make bots go for the enemy flag and don't get stuck or in endless loops in the way. -.-
- I want players spawn with Grappling hook, but I can't make it possible. What am I doing wrong?

[andrewj]

Regarding the getting out of water problem, which still exits, well I've looked at the Q3 code and I'm quite sure the problem is NOT the height of the water (it could be as low as 21units below the nearby surface, or as high as the surface).

The problem is the thickness of the walkways.  16 units high is not enough.  Make them 24 or 32 units and I think it will work properly then.

[more comments on the map soon...]

[cosmo]

Giving items on spawn is done easy:
Use target_give entity for that. I was fond of it in oa_koth1 and ctf_compromise.

The structure has to look like this: playerspawns --> target_give --> grappling hook

I'm doing a testrun and tell you what I think about it later.

[Neon_Knight]

That's what I exactly have done, but it didn't work at all. :/

[Neon_Knight]

New version, hpe this is the ante-final one. You know where to find it. ^^ (First post for those who don't know )

That map weighs less and less.

Changes:
- Aesthethic changes: redone flares, improved level geometry, added bases to objectives, added lighting to sniper spots.
- Clipping retouched, and also I've added some clusterportals.
- Added grappling hook to info_player_start and team_CTF_<team>player/spawns. Now players will spawn with Gauntlet, Machinegun and Grapple. Q2 Style. ^^

[riklaunim]

I like the map
For the water problem - if you "jump out of" the water, then there is no problem. I've been playing the old and the current versions. In the old one bots used the water to get the flag, and full set of nightmare bots did some flag hits (and some sinking too). Now they use the land path and for 30min they couldn't do any flag hit (every bot goes for the flag). There was blodshed in the middle (sometimes bots circle around by the exit to main battle field), and sneaking through water channel works only if they all defend the base (so enemy bots go far from their base ) So the map seems to be easy to defend, and very hard to attack.

As an alternative map there could be a CTF with only watery paths to the enemy base with few coridors with some water and air. And the base-water exits must be uncampable like in this map

[Neon_Knight]

Bot navigating was a very awful challenge for me. :/ I tried to botclip lots of places, and some clusterportals there, without being able to success. :/

[cosmo]

I like your attempt Armageddon_Man but how about this:

People tend to hate water in CTF maps as they are used to do strafejumping as you always encounter in hydronex. What's about setting mckinleyish into the future maybe 20 years after the original one. Everything is abandoned, the water basin is dry, empty, and maybe a waste dump or a forgotten storage depot with lots of crates in there? A rugged and decayed place?
For me your current solution is still too narrow and small. Especially the bases are no fun during battles. I'm glad you added a little walkway to the RL but it's still not big enough.

[Neon_Knight]

Uploading new version... DONT DOWNLOAD NOTHING UNTIL I SAY!!!

- Water passage to chaingun & ammo has been resized, now is bigger.
- Item placement changes: Health 50 in bases replaced by Health 25, added health and armor shards to middle area, switched Chaingun with Body armor, added 2x50 Health to Chaingun room, and added Chaingun ammo at the bottom.

Remember that this map has the 4 team items and an Invulnerability, so you can play it in Missionpack.

P.S. Water won't be off this map, and you have Grapple to get out of it and advance.