OpenArena Tournament: my SP campaign

[Neon_Knight]

Coming discussion from DM4ISH topic:

With the map style, I've converted this map to castle theme to make it fit in its tier on the SP.

Okay, but forcing a previous map to be something other just to fit into SP reduces variety of the maps. If a map don't fits, why don't you extend your SP? If you need another map to fill the gaps why don't you make another completely new?

You could add a Lava Tier: Forging Volcanos of <insert good sounding name here>, Land of burning souls etc... And then the tiers would look like this:

Steel/Modern Tier
oa_rpg3dm2 - Trial By Error
sleekgrinder (it's a unique map with the most vertical action) (previously oa_mini)
pul1duel1    - Five Steps Ahead
slimefac - Slime Facility

Factory/Abandoned Tier
oa_dm3 - The Abandoned Base
oa_mini - Mini Arena (previously am_lavaarena)
oa_rpg3dm1/am_underworks   - Trapped In Mind/Under Working
blitzkrieg3 - Blitzkrieg Sector (blitzkrieg2 please )

Space Tier
oa_pvomit (it's again unique, colorful) (previously am_spacecont)
suspended - Suspended
oa_shine   - Shine
czest1tourney   - The Space Spire

Small and Furious Tier
oa_dm2 (needs a little improvement)
oa_dm4 (needs a little improvement)
dm6ish - The Dark Zone
aggressor - Aggressor

Lava Tier
am_lavaarena
oa_shouse - Strange House
ce1m7 / Redish (instead of spacecont)
dm4ish (the original size and lava)

Historic/Ancient Tier
oa_dm5 - The Cistern (the Roman Empire had some advanced water facility)
oa_uzul3
oa_koth2   - Floating Spire
oa_black (it was thought for tourney, but it's enough big for a lot of bots)

Gothic Tier
kaos2 (not oa_nemesis)
oa_dm1 - The Place of Two Deaths
am_galmevish2 - Galmevish Yards
czest1_dm - The Monastery

So, basically only by rearranging there's place for another 4 maps.  Spacecont is a great map, but for now it could be a lava map, and you don't have to retexturize dm4ish. You get some free time without this two maps . The Tiers can be rearranged of course, so it's more interesting, like modern -> ancient -> space -> gothic -> factory etc...

Well, if you take a look at how I've arranged the tiers, both the maps, bots and bio, with the only exception of the first, all the tiers connects themselves in a way or another, mainly thematically. That's why I didn't put, for example, oa_pvomit on the space tier. Plus, the bots were rearranged (and have its own bio) with that (and playercount the map can hold) in mind.

I mean, look at UT3, any map Epic had done for it follows a theme, even the Titan Pack ones, and all the map themes have a connection which have its source/core on the SP. Do you want another example of tier arrangement? Quake 3 itself. Even with the "Vadrigar reunited all the best warriors on the world and made them fight to please their race" all the maps had a kind of visual connection among them. The exception can be the tier 4, which could have been put as T6 for example. You know, "the game as a whole, rather than just a part of it". ALL the gaming developer houses has that in mind, I don't see why we can't/won't/don't.

In other words, as I've told to chaoticsoldier, IMHO we should work together on a single and coherent thing rather than lots of small works which aren't related between them.

BTW, at this point I'll be doing the SP planning only with the maps which are on the SVN.

[Udi]

Yeah, I know the mantra: "Look at commercially successful games, who are working with hired professionals 8 hours a day according to a strict schedule. We can and _should_ do the same with volunteers from around the globe working in their free time." I don't think so. The cathedral and the bazaar cannot be compared. And here's why: you made a story to include all the models unchanged. Not the models were made for the concept, but the concept for the models, which results in a pretty strange story. It's so weird like the anime world for Popeye. But ok, we have one, thanks for your effort. And now you choose maps to strictly fit into the concept. Why? Probably because you can make maps, but not models. Don't get me wrong, I neither can make maps nor models, but the argument that classic games like UT and Q3 have also a strict concept in maps is limping on one foot. Because games like UT and Q3 have also models fitting into the concept. Once you told me that OA doesn't have to be überserious. Where's that attitude? Omitting pvomit (no pun intented ) because it doesn't fit, but having four angels of Gandoria who are actually slaves? I don't know...

But okay, I trust you, it's the best for OA . You haven't said anything about the other changes in the list. Like putting oa_minia next to oa_dm3, because oa_minia and pul1duel are almost as far from each other like pvomit and suspended. And what about the lava tier? And what about oa_uzul3 or oa_black? I didn't see fromhell's announcement of a content freeze. So you can include am_galmevish, am_lavaarena and dm4ishv2 (which has still bugs) but not oa_uzul3 or oa_black which are beautiful maps, just because the author doesn't posted it into the SVN Commits topic? I hope because it's your SP campaign (even the topic says so), your maps don't get advantage over others .

And closing down SP maps won't help much to actually provide content for a coherent game fitting into the concept. I agree that we should work together, not making different parts, but the SP story which was made for the models is not a good start. A game on it's own requires a completly blank sheet, and when you have filled the whole page than you can start making GUIs, models, maps, homepage. OA is not like that. No matter if you drop maps or models into the bin and have a good looking themed game, pulchr will come up with clean/modern maps, you would come up with UT/simple/castle maps, fromhell would come up with anime/Japanese style models and so on... There's simply not enough volunteer mappers/modelers/any other artists to make a specific kind of game. OA should be a mixture of high quality content, no restrictions, just quality. Let's concentrate on quality not concept, make the SP flexible, the more maps, the better, the bigger the variety, the better. You will never know when 1.0.0 will come out who will start making oa_pvomit style or UT style games based upon OA. But until then it should have the potential to develop in every directions.

[cosmo]

Udi is right.
Besides: UT2k3 maps are a horrible set of 'themed' places. Everything feels like thrown together in a hasty night. Gameplay is even worse.

It is not a good idea to have same looking spacemaps in one tier. pvomit is a welcome difference. Same goes for reddish with lava. That's what I am trying to tell you, Neon Knight, for month. Same goes for over and over usage of the same textures in your maps. There are more gothic surfaces than the ones used in aggressor. Please be more versatile.
Gothic, industrial, space are no real themes... lets have it another way.

Besides: The last map of each tier has be a 1on1 map!

Hm, we could put some impaled anime characters to the walls...

@Udi: oa_black is not done yet. Please be patient. I am far from finishing it. Do you have any suggestion about oa_koth1? I did not have enough time to talk to any players willing to review it. I can imagine retexturing it and turning it into a rock/industrial basement map although I am not in the mood spending too much time on it alltogether.

[AmDDRed]

Okey, I've read the thread, and I like to say some words (with broken english )).

THE DESIGN

It's good idea to make tiers according to map designs. But you mustn't forget about the thing that the whole project should have common design (like the big projects, you know).
What do we have now? Not quite bad weapons, a pack of fan-made player models and pack of several different maps. Any serious quaker would look at it with words: "Emm... You want me to change my Q3 to THIS?! Kid, are kidding me?". That's because ID made all in one way, let's say so. For example - after Ranger we meet not Doom, but Phobos, colored orange. Why? Because it's green uniform would not fit to red-brown-yellow color scheme of starting levels. But later on he appears on cosmic maps, where he looks naturally.
And I think that just with storyline you can't make OA look like it was made with by one team. Remember QIII? It described nothing. But the atmosphere it created made the game unique. The dekadent characters by their view only told stories.
OK, enough talking, lets get down to business.

THE MAPS

I totally agree that maps should be devided on tiers by their design. That's the first one.
Second, I always thought about such games, with good multiplayer, that their single player campaign is designed not only to tell story about game universe, but also to prepare player for online gaming. Well, this is good gamedesigned rule - simple at first, hard at last.
Of course, there must be final boss in almost each tier (remember q3 - tier 6 had no Arena Lord, it was Xaero), but also I'd like to see some light defrag training maps (tripple jump, circle jump, rocket jump, plasma jump - smth that is not very hard to do from the first time) - because it's elements are used in online fighting.
And, of course, before placing maps in one tier they should be «synchronized» - the same teleporters, design elements, jumppads, textures (where it is needed) etc...

THE MODELS

Models must be changed. What we have now — it's not «quake by spirit», it's «happy tree friends by spirit» - funny unproportional models with bad textures (some of them made anime style) running killing each other. Yeah, and the boobs. Well, that's anime too... And some made as the replacement for Q3 models (Slash, Doom, Major, Klesk...).
Not matter how different were Q3 models, they were united by design. They wasn't funny. Killing each other maybe is cool, but not funny. Maybe evil fun (as some gladiators were maniacs, such as Cadavre), but not laughing. That's killing the «spirit of Q3». Models must be remade, added new etc...
And then — Arena Lords fitted perfectly their Arenas. The demon-looked Klesk (which is religious zealot by story) habited the Cathedral like Arena. Uriel in the hood, hiding his face, hided in the mist — by story the encestor of Vadrigars. Anarki, the flying cyperpunk — in high tech design with vertical architecture.
Ok, the Hunter had have to hunt Sorlag in some jungles, but you got the main point: it must be seen the Arena is the Lord's territory. With his favourites weapons and fetish...
The basic models must be heroic-style. Maybe, decadent heroes, but still — heroes. Or megalomaniacs.

THE WEAPONS
Hello, arms...
This ones should be added one by one, different variation, to train noob how to use them, to switch from one to other... From tier to tier...
Also all weapons must be quite alike — color scheme, form alike. Remember the machinegun and rokit launcha from Q3? The basis — and the barrel(s). The shotgun and GL. The energo weapons... They aren't similar, but have smth similar in design. Btw I think that OA weapons should be redone — shooting nice, looking terrible, at least RL, Rail and plasma.

I'd like to devide weapons to 3 main groups:
Small Weapons
1. Gauntlet;
2. Machine Gun;
3. Shotgun;
4. Grenade Launcher;

Heavy Weapons
5. Rokit Luncha;
6. Chainsaw;
7. Nailgun;
8. Mine Launcher;

Energy Weapons
9. Plasma Gun;
10. Lightning Gun;
11. Railgun;
12. BFG10K;

I think all weapons within one group must be alike, sharing the same elements: for example, small arms could have short butt, high strap sight (like G36c) and cylindrical magazines. One barreled heavy machinegun (not the clone of q3 mini-chainsaw), jackhammer styled shotgun and revolver style GL. And so on.
Small arms for first, earthlike tiers, Heavy — for middle game, Energy — for futuristic designs.  Of course, rail and gauntlet are kind of exceptions ))
And — yeah — heil to mines in CTF/Domination (and so on) modes. )

THE END
...of speech.
So that's my vision. I hope it would be usefull for those who make maps and models and OA itself.
And I hope this is a joke — that you're going to make anime OA. That's benchy.
But you must think out the general idea — would it be fairy tail with wizards and sorcerers, or horror with necromancers and demons. IMHO, you shouldn't go away from id conceptions too much. But without the id — without the clones of Q3A. Another way OA will always be the copy.

P.S.: Also, I think that only FFA mode should be in tiers, as team work requiers cooperation which is hardly got with the bots...

[Udi]

AmDDRed, OA never wanted to remake the Q3 feeling or style. Eventually it will shift to an anime-style concept. More consistency will come, but definitely not «quake by spirit».

[Neon_Knight]

Plus, read this: http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=3512.0

I'm too "busy" to work with the SP. Oh, and just for the record, the only (or at least, one of the few) reason(s) I'm using the SP is for the visuals of my maps.

[Cacatoes]

That said, there are good remarks on your post.
The art direction may never have been very clear (what's the openarena universe ?) and not to arrange things there is also a lack of contributors to provide quality material.

[AmDDRed]

Yeah, I've understood, that it's not going to be q3, but as smone had written in wiki, it's going to be quake by spirit. I thought it's smth serious and grim, mb without pentagrams, but not rainbowish as hell.

And it's a pity to hear about anime-styled OA. I've never been fan of it, so if it will happen, I would never advise this game to my friends.

[RMF]

I'm not so for the anime too, but the community is just awesome. What's a game without gameplay and nice ppl? For graphics and sounds you can always say 'oh well', so as oa has both my requirements it's -imo- one of the best games existing

And about your previous post, well sounds all cool but who's gonna make it? (You, maybe? ) And oa isn't really a singleplayer game. It's only fun to set a new (imaginary) time record when your internet is down or something Or that's what I always do, see how fast you can rush through it at nightmare level.

[Neon_Knight]

Public Medium Ignorance, indeed.

[AmDDRed]

And about your previous post, well sounds all cool but who's gonna make it? (You, maybe? )

No, I won't. Not enough skill and time.
But! There are no conrete ideas yet. There's need to say what do you really need.
Like, "in tier one we need 4 maps, made in this style, first two should be 1 on 1, third 3 on 1 (whatever), the last - 1 on 1; First map should be made with shotgun, second - with shotgun and GL, third - with RL and shotgun, forth - with GL and nailgun. Shotgun map should be made with a lot of short distances, and one long - for machinegun; GL map should be done with two or three floors, usuall distance - medium; RL map should have some space for manevrs, few floors, short distance places; And NG map should be mixing floors, long distance (to have space to move away of nails and machinegun have it's power) and short-medium also - it must be convienient for the boss to kill the player.

When all 4 maps collected, must be a man, "senior mapper" who would overlook these maps and change the textures etc to fit one standard.
Then you can think what kind of characters can habit these places. If you have needed model, "teach" it to use correct weapon and go on. Or otherwise, make map for a great-looking character.
Also the textures of the weapons should be overlooked to fit the style of the tiers...

An I guess, if there would be a little bit more interaction with modders, like HeadHunters, Generations etc, who create their own maps and models, there would be much more profit. But only with concrete ideas:
- Emm, can you help us?
- Ok, what do you need?
- Emm, well, we don't know...
- Well, I don't know it either!
Maybe not the first one would agree, but the forth, fifth and so on. You know it by yourself ( for example, you asked for bot improvement algoryth or smth under GPLv2, you weren't denied).

Public Medium Ignorance, indeed.

Are you talking about anime? I know what is that. But the best and serious anime films (like "D", "Ghost in the Shell" etc) are drawing humans very naturally. Mb, a little bigger eyes. That's all.
But the anime is mainstream, it's cool now would it be cool after two years? And btw this style killed Disciples game serie...

P.S.: The trainingmap (like the Crash arena) could be this way - you appear nowhere on a platform, without weaponry and you have to flea jumping the platforms away of the bot shooting you.
Or you have to make the race in time before the doors would shut.
And nothing should be explained.

[Gig]

I like animes, but I don't feel OpenArena needs them...

[Neon_Knight]

I don't know, maybe the "anime" part is for inspiration and the whole thing ends being entirely different. We have to wait and see...

[fromhell]

What do you think OA will look like? Warsow?

AS IF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Warsow looks more like French graphic novel than anime. I'm not going anywhere near 'cel-shading' or the popularily misspelled "cell shading" and i'm not rotoscoping either.


The whole anime theory applied to OA is for visual consistency - q3's models were inconsistent because q3 originally had a planned 3 tier player class system (mid-1998 design), so they had light, medium and heavy models. In the end (like around May 1999) they scrapped that system and made everyone 'light' but retained the differently bulked models they did for the system (keel was heavy for example. the player models were all produced around early99/late98). OA doesn't have such a thing in mind... but if you think OA is going to turn into Touhou.... WRONG. This won't be a first-person cuter and despite my skimpy anime girl modeling habits, this won't be a first-person eroge arena shooter either.

The anime style would still be highly Bengus influenced.

[fromhell]

And btw this style killed Disciples game serie...

i'm not seeing it, it looks like standard 'korean mmo realism' style where the only exaggerants are in the hair