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Author Topic: why isn't open arena popular?  (Read 76596 times)
jessicaRA
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« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2008, 09:18:22 AM »

this is nothing to do with pro stuff really, its just really about giving some variety to how people can play, its not some hacked up binary either its just a mod which doesnt have the same quirks of taking something from quake to oa from actually making it for oa.  i don't think i understand what you mean by instant pro's, do you mean cypher or someone else who managed to do really good in a short time?
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RudyRailer
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« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2008, 01:59:30 PM »

The Lazer server(s) have a promode option ,..well they have all options when u use /callvote
Great server just hardly anyone knows it exists Sad
1 server that has it ALL ,..but then for real.
ffa dm tdm freeztag instagib tournament,...
what more you want? 1 IP can give u all the games u want
YAY!
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jessicaRA
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« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2008, 12:58:08 AM »

is the server on 0.8.1?  i checked a few times lately and can't see it listed.
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Speaker
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« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2008, 05:13:35 AM »

Yes. OA acclaimed the status as a game for newbies, whereas q3 with all those PRO-mods is loved by competitive gamers. I wish OA would add some features which would strenghten its PRO level, but on the other hand this would be a contradiction (according to fromhell) as all those noobies wouldnt know all the fancy cvars which would be useful in gaming- like hud, bobup and damagekick (which i hope will be applied). Look at warsow- it has like 4 player models, but its more popular than OA.

We could add new features w/o changing the basic gameplay of Q3A. I have already mentioned a few possibilities in an earlier post (e.g. more flexible weapon selection system). And even if the gameplay is changed, the new feature could be made optional (controlled by a cvar) and inactive by default. In this case the game is not compromised in any sense.

As for the fancy cvars and tons of config options, you have to admit they are rather intimidating at first. To make newcomers more comfortable, we could extend the menu system so that practically all cvars and config options would be possible to adjust from the game menu. It is fairly straightforward C programming, mostly copy-modify-paste of existing code.

A related point is that OA needs decent documentation. The install package does not have any documentation whatsoever, unless you also count the text of the GPL as a doc. :-) Ok, there is a lot of info on the net, but we are talking about newbies who may not know where and how to get it. We could collect some of the basic Q3A documents and tutorials and put them in a 'doc' directory in the install package. Practically no extra work is needed for this.  Maybe write a config tutorial explaining the purpose and use of different config options in a form comprehensible even to newbies. IMO small extras like these make a game successful and popular.
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fromhell
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« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2008, 07:00:20 AM »

Maybe I don't want to?
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Progress of OA3 currently occurs behind closed doors alone

I do not provide technical support either.

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Speaker
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« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2008, 10:34:09 AM »

Maybe I don't want to?

Terse and cryptic, as usual... :-) I assume you refer to the popularity of OA. Why not? Would it be a bad thing?
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RudyRailer
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« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2008, 01:30:00 PM »

is the server on 0.8.1?  i checked a few times lately and can't see it listed.

Its often empty so, you have to set "show empty"
when you see the server you can put it in your favourites.
The server is not popular yet, give it some time. Smiley
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epicgoo
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« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2008, 07:31:23 AM »

play on rofl instagib ctf
also if you wait for a while in an empty server someone may join Wink

I believe that it will be more popular with full mission pack
(co-op game types are more popular)
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2008, 07:33:29 AM »

Maybe I don't want to?

Terse and cryptic, as usual... :-) I assume you refer to the popularity of OA. Why not? Would it be a bad thing?

Read this entire topic for all your answers (and to know what happened to the last guy who said OA should change its gameplay Tongue)

http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=2143
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fromhell
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« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2008, 07:58:06 AM »

If anything, changing, or 'improving' the current gameplay (rather than adding new game types that don't interfere the ones they love) would ruin popularity more than anything.
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
Progress of OA3 currently occurs behind closed doors alone

I do not provide technical support either.

new code development on github
RudyRailer
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« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2008, 02:08:16 PM »

play on rofl instagib ctf
also if you wait for a while in an empty server someone may join Wink

I believe that it will be more popular with full mission pack
(co-op game types are more popular)

Instagib ctf is stupid imo i dont like it so no.
I only play there if im realy realy realy bored:D

For great instagib i rather play on the corkscrew server ,.. later in the evenings.
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feLiZ_naVidAD
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« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2008, 10:41:20 AM »

play on rofl instagib ctf
also if you wait for a while in an empty server someone may join Wink

I believe that it will be more popular with full mission pack
(co-op game types are more popular)

Instagib ctf is stupid imo i dont like it so no.
I only play there if im realy really really bored:D

For great instagib i rather play on the corkscrew server ,.. later in the evenings.

totally agree with you instagib cft is stupid... but the server is always full...

Id love to see some freeze tag server.... witch makes any map fun instantly... its played tdm and it can be played normal weapons, all weapons, just rail, just rocket or any combination . The best freeze tag mod (plus lot of features) is noghost. (www.Noghost.net) they even added open arena support...

Ppl running servers, pleasee!! give just one server!!! Smiley

I dont understand why there isnt any server of this running... its really fun

I set up a server, but my upload connection is not good enough Sad
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RudyRailer
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« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2008, 12:52:54 PM »

play on rofl instagib ctf
also if you wait for a while in an empty server someone may join Wink

I believe that it will be more popular with full mission pack
(co-op game types are more popular)

Instagib ctf is stupid imo i dont like it so no.
I only play there if im realy really really bored:D

For great instagib i rather play on the corkscrew server ,.. later in the evenings.

totally agree with you instagib cft is stupid... but the server is always full...

Id love to see some freeze tag server.... witch makes any map fun instantly... its played tdm and it can be played normal weapons, all weapons, just rail, just rocket or any combination . The best freeze tag mod (plus lot of features) is noghost. (www.Noghost.net) they even added open arena support...

Ppl running servers, pleasee!! give just one server!!! Smiley

I dont understand why there isnt any server of this running... its really fun

I set up a server, but my upload connection is not good enough Sad

There are 2 servers that run freezetag ,..RN UFreeze and  **LAZER   --> Xbattle mod
of the latter i know the IP 62.75.163.69:27974  ands port :27975 for ctf
/callvote  <-----      for all kinds of options
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pulchr
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« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2008, 05:06:15 PM »

i agree, freezetag is a very fun mode, more servers with people plz Smiley
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steauengeglase
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« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2008, 06:49:12 PM »

feLiZ_naVidAD wrote:

Quote
I think you hit the spot... I still dont know myself why I keep playing... coz base maps are really awful, and I have q3... but I can not join the servers smootly in q3... always some problem. There are q3 map available for oa, but no server play them... or they are always empty...

You are absolutely right. Those maps (except the ported ID maps and one or two others done by professionals) really suck. The GPL licensing of OA does not allow incorporation of most custom made maps into the releases. However, there are lots of good maps that can be run under OA. Here is my list of tested maps:

AFAIK these maps are all available for download at LvL. Maybe server admins are not aware that such maps exist (or are too lazy to search for them and playtest). We could send them this information. The list of compatible maps could even be included in the OA releases. I am sure that this would not be a violation of the sacred GPL ;-) If you think that this idea has some merit, I am willing to playtest a bunch of maps (I have collected quite a few) to see which ones are compatible. The list shown above is just my preference for my server (including a shameless plug about my own maps marked by asterisks :-)


My question is, why do these maps suck?

There is nothing stopping anyone from improving on them and like a bad haircut you don't know until someone tells you. Do they suck because of gameplay? Are they poorly arranged? Do you find them ugly (textures, lighting, what?)? Does the framerate die at certain points? Seriously, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, why?

You can't fix what you don't know is broken (and lets face it fixing what is broken is much more important than adding features).
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2008, 07:18:07 PM »

Also, with my maps I'm always asking for comments on what to improve, (sometimes I feel I'm spamming the forum with that :/) and while I can (or while I'm not lazy Tongue) I take the best ones and implement them in the map with what I can work.
And I'm not the only one, I know. Smiley

I was touching a little bit the Wiki with links to map threads, so everyone who has a comment about the map can leave the suggestion there, and the mapper (or anyone who wishes to make the change) does the work.

With ideas, well, there's a direction the project will follow, and it's obvious that things like Vehicles, destroyable environment and more ultracrazythingsonlywishedbysomeonelikeFlipendo (Tongue) will not go into the game. ATST, NOTTODO shows what can't be done by engine limitations or project's direction.

There's not so much to talk about it. :/
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feLiZ_naVidAD
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« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2008, 10:43:32 PM »

My question is, why do these maps suck?

There is nothing stopping anyone from improving on them and like a bad haircut you don't know until someone tells you. Do they suck because of gameplay? Are they poorly arranged? Do you find them ugly (textures, lighting, what?)? Does the framerate die at certain points? Seriously, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, why?

You can't fix what you don't know is broken (and lets face it fixing what is broken is much more important than adding features).

Imho, all the maps conversions from q1 maps, sucks... those levels were never intended nor designed to be mp, nor played in quake3 engine, those were 1p campain maps adjusted to be mp... its nice to remember them, and all... but remembering is one thing and another thing is that almost all dm servers run those maps coz they are in baseoa/

And CTF, aside from osago (simple and nice fast play, but awful textures), and 2 more maps that are ok, the rest are not good to play... i don't remember names now, but its easy to see, when you go to a map and ppl start voting to move on...

Armaggedon man maps are ok, btw...
They may not be perfect, but compared with the crappy maps that dwell in oa servers, armaggedon man maps are some fresh air to breathe Smiley and no, i dont know how to make your maps better, join a server and ask the ppl who is actually playing... maybe you get some nice feedback Smiley I just cant wait servers to have q3dm6ishCFT... it looks like really nice Smiley

And also, the "newbies" (i like this word more than noobs) just can't connect to the servers but they dont know why, just coz they dont have the autodownload thing... and nowhere its said to them thats the problem... this could be changed easily and add a more strict policy about overwriting files by evil packages...

but I say it AGAIN, fromhell is not interested in making open arena popular, he has stated so several times throughout this forum... so this discussion is pointless... Maybe he's hope for that happening for 1.0 when the game is more complete or he really doesnt give a fuck, who knows

And this is coming from a guy who plays oa 2h each day minimum... LoL
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Peter Silie
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« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2008, 08:07:17 AM »

First of all i want to give a big "thank you" to all the guys who made maps for oa! i know that this must be very hard work and i could not do that. but unfortunatly the best work could be done better.

Some words about the CTF-Maps:
most maps are disliked by the players. why? i think there are some reasons about this. and here are some rules for the mappers.

1. the ways to the flags should be as short as possible. look at hydronex and you know what i mean with to long ways.
2. the ways to the flags should be as fast as possible. only if you can strafe the whole time or use jumppads the players will like it. ctf_gate1 or ao_spirit3 are good examples for great looking maps who break down the speed of movement. players do not like that.
3. players need more than one way to the flag. and this ways should cross, so the player can change the road to the flag. this should be possible for him without any loss (of speed or time).
4. do not use water as a possible way to the flags. water slows down the speed to hell. noone loves this.
5. do not make 3 or more ways in line as the ways to the flags. ctf_inyard looks great but the only thing you have to do is strafe forward and shoot. that is no fun.
5. if you make sniperdecks, be careful. the snipers should not controll the whole map.
6. beware of the weapons. if you saw at aosago2, the proxies break down the complete gameplay. create a poll to examine, wich weapons are used by the players and place them carefully.
7. players should reach the enemyflag but it also should be possible to get out. hydronex' flagchamber is absolutely deadly, a funblocker 2000.
8 (important!). think about the following: would you play your map? i have seen pulchr and sago007 online, playing their (and other) maps. i think, that they know what they do :-)

Good maps are oasago2 and pul1. ps37 is also a nice map (similar to oasago).
for the bases7 could be a future, if the water would be removed (parched like a wadi) and the edges should be polished. maybe a third way to the enemybase could help to (but is not neccessary if you can use the waterway fast).

HTH
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RudyRailer
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« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2008, 09:03:01 AM »

ctf4ish is a very good masp aswell.
Only people dont like to be railed up the arse every2 seconds by me or any good railer.
Thats not a map problem imo but the lack of good players.
I played very good matches on ctf4ish with good railers in the other team.
Pretty annoying to get railed often but the sweeter the victory when u cap the flag.
Its sad to see that map voted off so many times by people who are not very skilled or say its a boring map.
There is a map called oa_ctf4ishum1 with new weapens placement (good map for next version)
A game doesnt have to end 8-? al the time, it can also end 3-? imo.
You never learn to play a map well, if you always vote them off

Whats the difference with map ctf2 anyway??? 1 less jumppad to get to the flag?? same difference imo
But that map is played very often and u get railed up the arse just as easy on that map ,..so...

Stop bitchin about map ctf4ish  (all who play ctf2 and vote ctf4ish off are just a bunch of hypocrits Smiley )
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zuma
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« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2008, 09:57:51 AM »

Oddly, ROFL Instagib is popular. I have to play on it as there are no players on other servers.
q3 OSP's configuring was easier for me at first, as there was a menu where you could control everything (bind m menu). Later i could change same settings using console only.
In ctf2 rail is near (can quickly revenge the camper), ctf4ish rail is far.
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E]x[F-RoBoJeW
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« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2008, 11:25:43 AM »

I will never play in instagib

The reason being is because I was kicked once because I talked back to the asshole Mod

From what  I remember is. He asked that all my kills were from camping (I had over 90 kills, and I wasnt even camping.) I then tell him, I dont care about my score. I just want to win.

He then proceeds to kick me. I come back and he kicks me again..


Very dumb.
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zuma
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« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2008, 11:50:55 AM »

Must have been Tarpit server. I was kicked there too. I wanted revenge for railing me in all spots of the map, and i was kicked.
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Peter Silie
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« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2008, 02:21:37 PM »

ctf4ish is a very good masp aswell.

right. but "spacemaps" are not for newbies. these kind of map is to difficult for beginners (look at their scores from -1 to -...). and only if oa can get new players it would be more popular. at this kind oa needs more simple maps for beginners. experienced players find their maps :-)
and the rule for ctf is: fast gameplay with a lot of action for a range of 4-16 players without being dm. maps must be designed for this.
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Cacatoes
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« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2008, 03:49:01 PM »

Hehe, much to say here.

I'm not really into variety, I mainly play CTF, so here are a few feedbacks :

- some noobs (not saying it in a pejorative way) maps, I avoid oa_bases maps as I don't feel they are interesting, even the last one (bases7) which is a bit more complex, I almost prefer previous ones. They can be okay to play, but not singular enough. One of them is too bright (all white) with vertex and my brightness. And as Rudy says, there has to be a variety of level for a variety of skill.
- some noob servers, such as instagib ; popular because it doesn't require much skill except moving the mouse and zooming. People like the fact it's easy to kill, and it is impossible for them against some good players who often have good armor and bash noobs too easily, it gives them the feeling they achieved something at least.
- I'm suprised ps37ctf is quite okay to play, it's simple in its layout, still we can have good use of weapons (maybe railgun, nailgun, RL... are well placed). So if I regret its simplicity, it is mostly because of its appearence (no nice buildings to look at Wink ).
- ctf_gate1 is well made (I like its style), but gameplay is average, maybe there isn't enough space to fight, maybe it's more about avoiding people and hiding on some column (I'm not sure of the word) than using weapons to Woot Tongue
- ctf_compromise, fog prevents me from playing, I don't like to play with such reduced visibility. Try to remove it, then people may try it.
- ctf4ish is annoying mainly if there are dedicated campers who do their job well. This is different from good railers, even if I find its use not challenging. Otherwise It's great and I have much fun with rockets and air frags (the only map with which I can both play and enjoy spectacular shoots :p). I have fun both with standard ctf4ish and ctf4ishum1.
- I didn't like oasago at first, I felt it was too much about exhausting ourselves running and being fragged when arrived near the flag (so, a bit like what Hydronex can be even if smaller). But it seems in the last games I played there wasn't that much defense, or it was interesting to fight it. Maybe removing the mines helped. I appreciate the gameplay, but maybe lightning gun is too powerful. I suppose I'd consider fun its use if I practiced it more.
- cbctf1 : lol, servers using it are desert, so they are used by people who learn to play online. It hurts too much to make the way to the flag while jumping, too great distance to achieve, not intense enough gameplay.
- ctf2 : it's an okay map, even if a bit limited to catching the railgun, as people are forced to make high and long jumps, they can't be shoot easily with other weapons. Only one RL at each side also makes people less keen on using it. (the central RL on ctf4ish, and one at each side, is a better layout).
- czestxctf ; they seem well made, and both are okay for gameplay, I don't even know what to say about them Wink Maybe I should play them more.
- delta, does this map ever exist ? Tongue I rarely see it on servers ; It's confusing at first, mainly about moving all the time, and pray other players gone mad so that they lost their way, frag the few ones you meet... but fights may be quite simple (you only walk on one space platform all along, and you can't move much : kill or be killed Tongue)
- islandctf : erf, too long way to the flag.
- oa_spirit3 : hard to judge, quite a nice map, but still I think I'd prefer if there were more battlefields. Think oasago, anywhere you are you can choose a weapon and have a good fight with it.
- Oh I nearly forgot pul1ctf Cheesy, I mostly appreciate the textures (half joking, I like the style), interesting frag possibilities, interesting paths to follow while strafing and eventually rocketjumping (it surprisingly seems easy to do and can become quite a short way to the flag, distances between jumps are well measured). Tiers are well used. If you see an enemy coming on a different tier, you can easily take some path to make sure you'll meet him, and not only look at him with your poor weapon and angle which make it hard to hit (thinking of ctf_gate1).

Oh crap, It may be easy to say I don't enjoy, but hard to formalize critics, and harder to positively describe what a map should be.

I know most admins of the server you're refering to. About tarpit, do not confuse automatic kicks (which were sometimes annoying indeed) and ones made by admins.
If this is a human kick, it could both be a matter of cacacacamping (as this is hard to define, maybe they tend to judge a bit too quick) but also of attitude (if you're a bit rude, language as a barrier too, it's sad but maybe you're more friendly with users who use your mother tongue, and less friendly if you hardly understand the foreign language). If you really try to discuss I doubt they'd be that close-minded though. But I'd say I agree as I disapprove the trend to kick in the overall.

As for OA's low popularity ...  simple answer : overall quality ?
People who are interested in Q3's gameplay have enough of Q3 ? (Does World of padman use Q3 engine ? I have no idea of their popularity. What about Alien Arena ? IIRC both of these games had specific and maybe better graphics, but maybe they spoiled gameplay).
OA also has some specific audience due to the fact it is opensource. I think I'd have paid very few attention to OA if it wasn't, because I almost didn't give a try to other freewares.
Maybe people are also unaware of the fact Q3's gameplay rox! You just have to check what kind of FPS most people play nowadays, it's not hardcore gaming, and they are less inovative in gameplay terms.
Or maybe there's nothing we can do about it, except maybe a bit more of promotion. OA has to make its way to gaming communities, computer users communities, it's nearly about marketing here, or rather : informing people about what OA is.
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« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2008, 09:26:40 AM »

Probably repeating some previous comments but no harm done..

1) Yes.. water = just awful. Same with lava and other obstacles. It is a multi-player game and you can do enough self damage as it is without falling down a stupid hole 5 times in a game because your not familiar with the map. lava isnt so bad providing you can easily avoid it. It's no coincidence that the maps with water and void spots aren't popular on q3.

2) Playing custom maps I notice noone likes the multi-level vertical maps which are cramped. There is one on the corkscrew server but can't remember the name. It has very nice detail yet is horrible playing, even in ffa.

3) TDM maps are usually medium sized but you can get to each position very quickly. q3dm7 is a good example. You learn with a few games where the rocket launcher room is and obvious places like the dungeon. It is simple to navigate without too many obstacles in your path. When there are less people.. you find that players can still play on the map and they might hang around the bridge where the lava is so that two players arent running around the same circle. I use teamoverlay often but it seems useless in most maps I've tried.

4) I don't think there's too a deal with the OA maps. I think the point people make is that there are tons of customs maps available. Alot of these happen to be crap.. If you tried about 20 random ones there might be only a couple that are liked. Same will apply with OA too.

5) It's not as simple as it seems when trying to explain why a map is poor.. because alot of them people havent given a proper try. I remember hating q3dm13 for ages but once I realised how to get to places then i changed my opinion. It's one of the few vertical maps I like.

6) As someone pointed out. The name structure is non-exsistant. Even the levelshots are misleading.. one of the first maps on single player looks like a ctf map. If I could remember map names then I would be more inclined to post feedback.

7) A 'new map' server is needed and people can pile in and post comments. I'm sure people would join the server and give them a good try. Disable voting cos sure as hell it'll be a ctf server with osago2 before long.  I can provide a server/s if needed but cannot manage them. I'm sure there's no shortage of people that can put up a test server.

Cool Yea they Q1 maps... I hope these dissapear. Just awful

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