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Author Topic: *DISCONTINUED* DM4ISH: The topic  (Read 19536 times)
Neon_Knight
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« on: June 15, 2009, 04:18:09 pm »

This map felt into DisContinuity

Reason: Lots of issues, specially those regarding to size.

The links and info below are left for the record.  If someone wants to continue the work on this map, he/she is free to do it.

First version. 2 mid-days of work.. I've made A HUGE LOT of changes to the original, it almost feels as a different and new map.

a1:
- Texturizing.
- Size 1.5x.
- 2 new passages: one which is a falling spot from the very upper chamber to the waterpool bridge.
- Replaced West (Yellow Area) & South (Yellow entrance to Cyan area) stairs with jumppads)
- Weapon & item placement & spawnpoints. Both three renewed. There are differences between FFA/Team and 1on1, but I've made some mistakes, so they will be corrected in the next version.
- Brush fixes, now for example the non-visible faces aren't drawn.
- Zones colored by light. Red, Cyan, Blue, White & Yellow.

a2:
* Replaced black trim with another shader. I think it looks better.
* Added Lightning Gun, it's at the very upper floor. It will stay there on 1on1.
* Added LG ammo too, at second level near the jumppad and in the center area.
* Moved Railgun to the left of the stair entrance in the center area. It remains there for 1on1 too.
* Moved Red Armor to second level. It's replaced by a Yellow Armor on 1on1.
* Haste on the water is replaced by RA on 1on1.
* Chaingun will remain underwater even on 1on1.
* Added patches, they (I guess) make the level to look better.
* Clip & Hint corrected. Also minor details.

Weapons: Shotgun, Grenade Launcher, Rocket Launcher, Plasma Gun, Railgun, Lightning Gun, Chaingun. (No ammo for this one)
Powerups: Haste (replaced by RA for 1on1)
Other: Megahealth, Red Armor (replaced by YA on 1on1)

To do:
- Fix RA/Haste bug.
- Clusterportaling.

Screenshots: (old, from a1, replacing in a little moment)

Download

Suggestions are welcome. Smiley
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 03:46:25 pm by |TXC| Neon_Knight » Logged


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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 07:36:13 pm »

Size x 1.5 like the Cistern might be cool.  RG would make more sense then,
particularly in the central area. 

Darker color, change the lava to water, then connect the lava pools with an
underwater passageway like  Tokay's Towers.  A great place for a chaingun!

Too bad ladders suck in Q3.  Switch the ladder for a TP?  And because of increased size,
add another TP?  Don't know from where to where.

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sago007
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2009, 04:41:39 pm »

dm4ish is (in my humble opinion) the best map in the game as it is. Sure it is limited to 4 players but I am against increasing the number of players a map can hold by increasing its size. It is a 4 player map and the weapons is generally well distributed.

Things that comes to my mind: The map might be too small for Red Armor (not least because it is placed on a spawn point and too close to a yellow armor).
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2009, 09:21:06 am »

I forgot to mention: I want it to be suitable for 1on1 games, since it'll be the place in the SP. (Against Arachna on T5)
I'll start in a moment, any more suggestions?
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2009, 10:28:05 am »

I forgot to mention: I want it to be suitable for 1on1 games, since it'll be the place in the SP. (Against Arachna on T5)
I'll start in a moment, any more suggestions?
Then Quad probably should be replaced with MH.
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Graion Dilach
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2009, 02:58:32 am »

dm4ish is (in my humble opinion) the best map in the game as it is.

QFT. I love that map. I even use that map for my custom-bot-testing (When I find a model without botfile, I create one for him), because that map features almost all the weapons/armor etc.

Maybe it's a bit big for 1on1...
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2009, 11:10:16 pm »

I've uploaded the first version. Also I've done a huge brush cleanup, which ended in some extra zones added. It feels like a different map, for sure. Cheesy
In the worst case, (cg_simpleitems 0, r_detailtextures 1, 1024x768) r_speeds reaches 4000. I don't know what changes are needed for this to be even lower, if possible.
I need to make more changes to the map, but that can be the next weekend.
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 04:16:41 am »

I've uploaded the first version. Also I've done a huge brush cleanup, which ended in some extra zones added. It feels like a different map, for sure. Cheesy
In the worst case, (cg_simpleitems 0, r_detailtextures 1, 1024x768) r_speeds reaches 4000. I don't know what changes are needed for this to be even lower, if possible.
I need to make more changes to the map, but that can be the next weekend.

It looks nice!

I was not able to find the railgun, but there is ammo->where is it?

WHERE IS MY LG!!!! PANIC Sad

The marker for the weapons would look a bit better as small cylinders. Now you cant see the items sometimes.

I like your lightmap.

schlorri
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 05:19:17 am by schlorri » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 05:13:31 am »

nice upgrade neon, will be interesting to play this.

do not worry about r_speeds at 4000, that's very low compared to most maps!
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chaoticsoldier
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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2009, 06:49:13 am »

Unfortunately, the bots are very easy to beat just by luring them into the water. Shoot them in the back as they completely forget about you and head straight for the chaingun. Cheesy.
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cosmo
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« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2009, 07:30:39 am »

The black trim with the lights in screenshorts 1,2, and 4 doesn't look that good.
I thought DM4 cannot go without a shaft.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2009, 07:38:16 am »

I'll take note, then I'll see what can I do the next weekend.
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« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2009, 08:06:55 am »

Looks better (apart from the black trim, I don't think they are supposed to be used as textures they are light for some shader).

It is way to big though.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2009, 08:07:57 am »

Yeah, I didn't get convinced with it too...

EDIT: Chaoticsoldier: I guess the Chaingun is more an AI problem than a map problem. Weights for weapons should be defined with more balance.
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Graion Dilach
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« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2009, 03:06:21 pm »

I think it's too big and the black trim is worse. Maybe a darker version of the standard wall looks better, but I'm not a mapper and I don't have such a mind to really develop something like these.

Yeah, I felt the differences.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2009, 01:04:37 pm »

You don't need to be a mapper, your suggestions are welcome too. Wink

Anyway, new version. Cheesy I'll upload screenshots later.

Worked a bit on it, let me think if I can remember all the changes...

* Replaced black trim with another shader. I think it looks better.
* Added Lightning Gun, it's at the very upper floor. It will stay there on 1on1.
* Added LG ammo too, at second level near the jumppad and in the center area.
* Moved Railgun to the left of the stair entrance in the center area. It remains there for 1on1 too.
* Moved Red Armor to second level. It's replaced by a Yellow Armor on 1on1.
* Chaingun will remain underwater even on 1on1.
* Added patches, they (I guess) make the level to look better.
* Clip & Hint corrected. Also minor details.

Download link @ 1st. post, as always. Cheesy
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« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2009, 04:42:39 pm »

Hello,

tested it a bit, i like it! Will make fun in 1v1 too Smiley.
On the second screenshot you can see Haste and RA at one place, i think its a bug?
I dont know whats wrong with my graphic-config, the cylinder looks strange(but better than the box!). It looks the same at your OA? Maybe its too thick?

great work
schlorri

edit: ah, forgot: the jumppad on the first screen is a bit to powerful, we dont want the players to get headache Smiley

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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2009, 04:47:12 pm »

-------
wrong button
can someone please delete this post?
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2009, 05:09:07 pm »

Yeah, that of haste+RA should be haste on ffa and tdm and RA on 1on1. Putted in the fixing list.

I've played it at maximum possible graphics (most of the time my OA is at mid-to-low graphics, I map more than what I can play specially these days) my VG card could. I'm still uploading the screenies.

About the other, there was a cvar which controlled how much patches get subdivided, but I can't remember what of all of these do that work.
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« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2009, 05:28:05 pm »

This is the highest setting i think(wow, and this with my old radeon 9700->nice map performance), u see the white and blue lines over the jumppad/itemspawnpoint? You dont see it on your computer?
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2009, 06:17:26 pm »

The highest quality I can achieve can be seen on the screenshots (uploaded) of the first post. I have a GeForce FX5500 with 256MB DDR2. And I can see all the things well.

BTW, I'd took those screenies with a normal config.
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« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2009, 10:09:25 pm »

As cosmo has noted, dm4ish is a fast and furious 4 player FFA map.

dm4ishv2 isn't.  Seeing the scale change and comparing the maps
at each size has been thought provoking.  Here's some first thoughts.

On dm4 and dm4ish, LG, RL and PG rule in the central area.  There's
no place to stand off and plink at opponents with the RG, so it seems
to me that the RG is not so useful.  It's damage rate is too slow for the
pace of play. 

The hallways are good for escaping the mayhem, and if you're lucky, finding
some health and armor.  If you encounter an opponent in good health in there
though, you're doomed.

On dm4ishv2, the LG no longer reaches across the central area, and the RL
takes too long to cross, making rocket dodging much easier there.  RG makes
more sense now, but seems useful only shooting into or from the upper entrances
to the central area, from where you could catch the careless player entering the area
or retreat between RG reloads.  If someone is unlucky enough to be emerging from the
water below, they're sitting ducks for RG/RL from above.  More below on that.

The hallways are wide enough to avoid RL spash damage and PG by jumping around.
SG is no longer a weapon of desperation in the hallways.  Haven't found any place
yet where I thought GL would be useful.

While I was in the hallways, I was reminded of the central area of am_underworks! 
Makes me wonder what a 0.5 size am_underworks would look like.

For FFA, the right player load is probably going to be 8 or more, and a higher item
count will be needed.  Your latest update has helped a little with that.

For 1v1, seems to me the fighting will occur in the hallways.  The central area is too
big and exposed, though it could be that players might try to exchange RG across it,
I don't see that happening often.  Changing the positions of the RG and the RA in the
nearby room might make the central area more attractive, but if players closely time the RA,
the water is the likely escape route after getting it.  This, with some more tweaking,
may lead to some interesting underwater fighting.

The Haste on the way to the CG is necessary to avoid drowning damage, but also
has the potential to make emerging from the water into the central area less suicidal
*if* the CG has more ammo.  Because the LG's range is not quite enough to always reach a
player on the top level of the central area from the bottom walkway, the combination of doubled
firing rate due to the Haste and more CG ammo gives the player emerging from the water a
better chance to escape to safety.  The CG serves as a substitute for the LG in its
common use from below against RG/RL from above.

Mission pack weapons are considered gimmicks that don't belong in 1v1, but I wonder
if on this map an exception should be made.  I'm reminded how, in Q2, the chaingun went,
over time, from a waster of ammo to second only to RG in importance in tourney competition,
serving a function similar to LG.

Consider PlayerClipping the lights in the hallways.  I got snagged on them occasionally.

Enough!  Bedtime, and I'm sure this one will go through some more changes.







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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2009, 05:16:17 pm »

This is the highest setting i think(wow, and this with my old radeon 9700->nice map performance), u see the white and blue lines over the jumppad/itemspawnpoint? You dont see it on your computer?
Today I understood your message and what you've pointed... those lines appeared on older versions of oa_minia too (even on the 0.8.1 version too)

Yes, I had saw that, (these are even on reptctf3) but I'll see if there's a way to get rid of these without cutting off the effect.
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2009, 05:23:45 pm »

the lines come from the beam jpegs. if you look at them in an image editor you can see that there are a couple of lines of black pixels before the colour starts. just add one or two more black lines and the tiny lines will disappear.
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« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2009, 05:00:15 am »

Touching a legendary map like dm4 is a sensitive thing. Now I understand the "no more v2 maps" riot Smiley. As some players said before dm4 is fast and small with a lot of frags. There's a server in Europe which grow really popular in a short time: [Z] fastweap small maps. It is more frequently visited than some older servers like Geezernet or Virtual Cattleground. The reason is that it has small maps in its name Smiley. Q3 players really like small maps, a tons of rockets, gibs and blood. Most of the Q3 models have blood on their hands and shoes, indicating that they are butchers strafing in blood covered rooms. So OA needs a lot of red/blood covered, small, ancient, elite, traditional Quake maps. We already have some castle/blue textured maps converting other maps is not needed. So please don't touch the size and item placement of dm4ish. Just add some details, or if you want to retexturize it, than give it an industrial orange/black/grey look that q3dm6ish had before Trak touched it, or like the map Trak build: Schism. OA lacks such an industrial-techno styled map.

BUT! Your effort wasn't in vein Smiley. The new look instantly grabbed my fantasy. The grey walls, crystal blue water and wooden bridge over it gave me ideas about some water facility. Not like the Cistern, but a more advanced: huge, black pipes coming out from the water, going across the map both vertical and horizontal along corridors. The feeling should be that it is some 19th century steam technology. The mood in American Mc'Gee's Alice the Water Tower level is pretty much the mood I'm looking for but instead of rusted, brown pipes some clean, black ones should be used which will definitely fit to blue water, grey walls and wooden bridges. The current textures are good, except for the green ceiling which is confusing since people used to green lawn and blue sky, when I first played the level I've lost my navigational sense when I was looking up. So much about moods and texture.

The name of the map and the layout should be also changed, to indicate that the new map is no threat for the original dm4ish. Basically the layout should almost be the same:
  • Three vertical levels and a bonus underwater level
  • Two big rooms with a lot of water surface, big black metal pipes coming out from the water and from an underwater "steam monster". The pipes would come out in a bunch, 4-5 of them parallel, and later they would separete going into walls, and later appear again horizontal in the corridors.
  • One of the rooms should have a wooden bridge connecting three ways just like now, but all the three ways should lead into the way of the another big room
  • The other room should have the same looking wooden bridge, but only connecting two passages, the third is somewhere above them. The third should be able to be reached with a rocket jump, or if not, than a small wooden platform should be placed one level lower on the opposing wall, so one can jump from the top passage across the room to the small wooden platfrom, and one can rocketjump from the basement to the small wooden passage collect MH or other smaller health there, and jumping with another rocket to the top passage. This room with the vertical fun sould also have a waterfall just like oa_dm5 has.
  • Along the three connecting passages the black pipes should reappear and some small rooms should emerge with a hole in the bottom so one can jump into and out of the water ways.

A small sketch to support the words:
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