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Author Topic: OpenArena enhanced mod?  (Read 26751 times)
MilesTeg
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« on: January 04, 2007, 06:50:57 am »

Hi
in this posting I suggested to create another project wich is based on OpenArena but creates new features for the game, so the gaming expierience could be improved.

A good start would be a mod that collects ideas from the community and tries to integrate them.
Things I would like to see:
- New game modes (e.g. counterstrike, Onslaught)
- new weapons
- vehicles would be cool
- mutators(=more options to change the gameplay) like in ut
- making all features modular so they can be switches on or off

The idea is to make all this optional so in the end you can use the mod and still play like the vanilla q3a without the bells and whistles.

So what do you think about the idea?
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Jeric Hikari
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« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2007, 09:22:26 am »

I think what you're wanting is Unreal Tournament.....


Would be nice if the original UT, even if just the engine, were GPLed, but its not...
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Ferk
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« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2007, 09:45:55 am »

A similar idea had already been suggested some time ago.

Maybe a free open Mod with a remix of game modes cloned from all other quake3 mods, ut and so, could be a good thing, since almost all other quake3 mods (except for tremulous and some other, but they are total conversions) have closed source or their source is distributed under a non GPL compatible license.

Apart from the license, there's the problem that there is almost no server running any mod. If there was some sort of "official mod", I believe that it would be played a lot more.

Btw, I dont think the game needs "mutators". It is already moddable, and there are already switches that can be turned on and off, or with different values assigned when hosting a server, but they are hidden (give a try using UI enchanced pk3).
The only thing I miss is more game modes. Weapons are fine as they are.


« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 09:53:52 am by Ferk » Logged

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MilesTeg
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« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2007, 10:28:38 am »

Btw, I dont think the game needs "mutators". It is already moddable, and there are already switches that can be turned on and off, or with different values assigned when hosting a server, but they are hidden (give a try using UI enchanced pk3).

Actually, mutators are nothing more than convenient menu options. UI enhanced has most of the options I am looking for and I think it would make a great addition to oa enhanced.

"I think what you're wanting is Unreal Tournament....."
No, what I want is a project that collects all ideas from the community about improving oa and tries to realize them.
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white haired boy
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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2007, 11:30:08 am »

Quote
Actually, mutators are nothing more than convenient menu options. UI enhanced has most of the options I am looking for and I think it would make a great addition to oa enhanced.

i'll have to take a look at ui enhanced. i vaguely aware that there are a lot of options that affect the gameplay and it would be great if i could access them from a graphical menu. (yeah, i'm lazy. sorry)

is this what you are talking about?
http://www.vgpro.com/file/17251_uie12.zip.html?execute=vgpro#download_now

i've downloaded it and i'll have a look at it when i get home. i didn't see what the license was, but if it's not gpl then it will still be interesting to see what can be done to the ui.

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« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2007, 01:06:13 pm »

I agree with this idea actually, and it might be better if it benefitted from Team Arena's features in addition. Smiley
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
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I do not provide technical support either.

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Ferk
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2007, 02:48:47 pm »

is this what you are talking about?
http://www.vgpro.com/file/17251_uie12.zip.html?execute=vgpro#download_now

i've downloaded it and i'll have a look at it when i get home. i didn't see what the license was, but if it's not gpl then it will still be interesting to see what can be done to the ui.
yes, that's the mod. The sourcecode of it is in fact available for download, I suggested it before to be added to OA but the bad part is that it is not GPL-compatible and I couldn't contact the author.

However its code might be used as a aid for developing the OA enchanced UI.
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MilesTeg
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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2007, 02:57:35 pm »

I contacted the author once and he said he wanted to licence the code under gpl soon... but that was about an year ago... Sad
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white haired boy
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« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2007, 12:16:14 pm »

hello,

i didn't have any luck getting the uienhanced mod to work. i tried it in both the openarena folder and the baseoa folder and it made no differnence either time. am i missing something?

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MilesTeg
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« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2007, 01:41:54 pm »

works good for me:
1. downloaded uie12.zip
2. unzip it
3. copy uie12.pk3 into the baseoa folder (I'm using OA without any other mods)
4. start the game with hundreds of new options
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white haired boy
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2007, 12:03:14 pm »

wierd. i wonder why it's not working.

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MilesTeg
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2007, 06:15:24 am »

OpenArena enhanced (working title)

comments about the chart (see attachment)
This is the way I think OpenArena enhanced could fit in the environment of Q3A and OpenArena.
"Internet Developer-Community" and "Internet Modder-Community" are just seperated to keep the chart easier to understand, but of course they aren't that different from eachother.
The blue arrows show where free content/code is used. The black arrows are contributions with mostly non-free content/code.



As you can see the idea of OAe is to catch as many new projects as possible and bring them under one hood. This is basically the same concept used in Debian.

So what are the differences between OAe and OA ? Primarily OAe won't try to clone Q3A content. This means some of the old Q3A mods will possibly not work (although we should try to avoid this).
- OAe will also welcome new (GPL'd) mods and tries to integrate them in the main game.
- The more free high quality content (textures, sounds, maps, models etc.) the better. The longterm goal is to get a big free content repository that can be used for much more projects later on.
- The graphics and game engine should be featurerich but new effects etc. must be optional (=you should be able to turn them off).
- The gameplay has no special direction: If some people want to work on e.g. a CS-like gamemode they are free to go this way.
- although there is no special direction for the game itself the primary goal for the project is to integrate GPL-published stuff.

- default settings must be easy to understand and creating a user- and developerfriendly game is also an important aspect of the project.
-- Most of the settings should be adjustable in the new GUI. Keep the commandline away from the user if possible.
-- important advises (how to play a certain gamemode) should be readable ingame (even better: let someone talk to the user!)
-- OAe should be developerfriendly (maybe integrate GtKradiant?) and both enjoyable for new and advanced players.
-- the number of gamemodes need to be kept small. No new gamemode for just one changed setting. (maybe a gamemode for beginners with fixed settings and one for advanced players where settings can be adjusted in many ways)

Things OAe has in common with OA:
- all content and code has to be licenced under GPL!
- there is no restriction in terms of settings (gothic, hightech, reallife - everything is accepted)
- keep the Q3-gameplay (in some way) intact (= there should be a setting "vanilla quake" or something like this)
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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2007, 09:39:23 am »

Will OAe (the enchanced mod) and OA+ (the missionpack Quake3:Team Arena replacement) be different projects?
If they were I think they would need better names to avoid misleading

However, it is needed to divide the comunity of players that much?

Since there aren't mods based on Q3TA I think there is no real need for a GPL replacement for it, isn't it?
Those 2 projects could then be merged to feature all of the Q3TA new weapons, gamemodes, items and runes, whitch are already really good and add whatever is wanted to make the greatest Q3-based game
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MilesTeg
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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2007, 09:48:42 am »

short answer about the naming: OAe is still a working title, so every new ideas for naming are welcome.

I don't know exactly where the OA+ project is heading
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2007, 01:51:12 pm »

seeing as the missionpack code is already integrated in the source, it wouldn't be hard to compile both a OAe and a OAe+.
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white haired boy
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2007, 09:48:24 am »

hello milesteg,

you've put some serious thought into this and there are some great ideas in there.

here's some feedback, some of which could also apply to openarena....


Quote
Things OAe has in common with OA:
- all content and code has to be licenced under GPL!
- there is no restriction in terms of settings (gothic, hightech, reallife - everything is accepted)
- keep the Q3-gameplay (in some way) intact (= there should be a setting "vanilla quake" or something like this)

i completely agree with the strict adherence to GPL when it comes to the game itself, but the question of how non-gpl mods are treated needs to be given some thought. it would be good if we could explain the situation without alienating them. if the gpl and non-gpl modders can share their knowledge then it would be a mutually beneficial relationship. if we can make the non-gpl modders feel part of the community then there is a better chance that they might consider putting some of their work under the gpl.

i really like the no restrictions in terms of settings. it fits with the idea of a free content repository for other games to grow from.

Quote
So what are the differences between OAe and OA ? Primarily OAe won't try to clone Q3A content. This means some of the old Q3A mods will possibly not work (although we should try to avoid this).

i'm not so sure that we should try and avoid that. maintaining compatibility with a bunch of mods written for quake3 will at best slow the development down and at worst cripple the game. i reckon quake3 compatibility should be thrown out the window and the focus should be on making the best game possible. if people really want to play the mods then they can either use openarena (which has the quake3 compatibility angle covered) or port the mods to the new technology.

Quote
- OAe will also welcome new (GPL'd) mods and tries to integrate them in the main game.

agreed.

Quote
As you can see the idea of OAe is to catch as many new projects as possible and bring them under one hood. This is basically the same concept used in Debian.

agreed. it's a useful comparison.

Quote
- The graphics and game engine should be featurerich but new effects etc. must be optional (=you should be able to turn them off).

agreed, to an extent. if there are options that can be easily turned off then it wouldn't hurt to provide a nice clickable option in the menu to do so, as long as it doesn't distract from working on the game. a lot of time could be wasted trying to get the game running on old computers that could be spent trying to make it work better on new ones.

Quote
- The gameplay has no special direction: If some people want to work on e.g. a CS-like gamemode they are free to go this way.

absolutely. i really feel this is important.

Quote
- default settings must be easy to understand and creating a user- and developerfriendly game is also an important aspect of the project.
-- Most of the settings should be adjustable in the new GUI. Keep the commandline away from the user if possible.
-- important advises (how to play a certain gamemode) should be readable ingame (even better: let someone talk to the user!)

agreed. make the game as noob friendly as possible. it might be worth looking at some usability guidelines to see what can be applied to the menus. the gnome desktop has something like this. (i've nothing against kde, i'm not trying to start a gnome/kde flamewar).

Quote
-- OAe should be developerfriendly (maybe integrate GtKradiant?) and both enjoyable for new and advanced players.

very true.

i think having a lot of tutorials on a wiki would really help here. ideally they would be so clear and comprehensive that a complete beginner could simply take the tutorial and make a map or model with very little further help. something that would be useful would be if every tutorial started with download links for all the software required for that tutorial. there could be a standard format for a tutorial page, to provide a uniform look. links to all the required software could also be provided on the download page.

on the subject of gtkradient, i'm under the impression that it needs extra stuff to do work on openarena. telling people to download gtkradient and then start putting extra bits in various folders is messy. it would be good to provide a package with an automated installer that does all the work or make a customize version.

if blender needs extra content it would be good to have an addon package that provides everything needed for it too.

it would help modelers if there was a range of generic character models available for download that had all the body parts, rigging and animation in place. so a developer could simply download it, tweak the mesh, skin it and resubmit it to the game.

something that could help mappers would be to have every tutorial provide a download link for a very simple .blend or vrml file with a generic humanoid character to help give a sense of scale. it could have a box around it to show how much space the model needs so that mappers could check that doors were big enough. there could also be a crouching model with a correspondingly shorter box. there could also be a link to the content repository where they could browse for items for their map.

Quote
-- the number of gamemodes need to be kept small. No new gamemode for just one changed setting. (maybe a gamemode for beginners with fixed settings and one for advanced players where settings can be adjusted in many ways)

the distinction needs to be made between the underlying gamemode and "mutators" that alter the game play. instagib, for example can be added to any of the gamemodes and while it changes the gameplay the underlying rules are still the same. an instagib deathmatch is still a deathmatch.

some thoughts on the name

i'm not sure about the name openarena enhanced. while i think it's important that the new game should acknowledge it's ancestry i think using the same name might not be the best way of doing that. i can think of a few reasons....

google - if someone types openarena into google then the openarena homepage should be the first link there. if the new game had openarena in the title and really took off it could conceivably knock the original off the top spot, which would be really rude. if on the other hand the new game had a different name but provided prominent links to the openarena homepage then it would actually reinforce it's google ranking.

divergence - the new game will be moving off in different directions and eventually they will be completely different games, so it's inevitable that at some point the new game would need to be renamed to avoid confusion. it would be better to avoid the whole situation by having the new game start with it's own identity that didn't conflict with openarena's.

implications - there would also be the fact that having a project called openarena enhanced would imply that the original was an inferior product, whereas the truth is that the two projects would simply have different objectives, openarena being focused on perfecting quake3 compatibility and the new game on competing with proprietary games.


code of conduct

it might be worth having something like ubuntu's code of conduct on the forums. http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct

white haired boy.
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2007, 01:32:52 pm »

on the subject of gtkradient, i'm under the impression that it needs extra stuff to do work on openarena. telling people to download gtkradient and then start putting extra bits in various folders is messy. it would be good to provide a package with an automated installer that does all the work or make a customize version.

This isn't a good idea right now as GTKRadiant 1.5 is still in the dev. stage with many of the useful plugins (GTKGensurf comes to mind)  simply not building.  Copying the Q3 stuff over into a new folder and editing the default paths in the xml files isn't that difficult.  Besides, not everyone uses GTKRadiant.

[edit] also it would be slightly rude to distribute a tool that won't open the current .map files (unless someone can work out the q3 primitive problem on QuArK edited maps)

Quote
if blender needs extra content it would be good to have an addon package that provides everything needed for it too.

I thought the only addons for blender were the md3 export scripts from the xreal project
Quote
code of conduct

it might be worth having something like ubuntu's code of conduct on the forums. http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct

I thought there already was one (i.e. "don't be a dick").  Smiley
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MilesTeg
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2007, 06:53:03 am »

@white haired boy
I agree with you about no alienating the non-gpl modders. It would be a great benefit if some of them contribute to the project. One of the goals should be to get the attention of the non-gpl modders, explain them as good as possible what it is all about. Every old mod released under gpl would be great benefit not only for the game but also for the whole gaming community. But of course everyone is free to do with their creations what they want, and non-gpl mods are ok of course. I just want the modders think about the licencensing first  - in the end it's their decission.

Quote
i'm not so sure that we should try and avoid that (q3 incompatibility). maintaining compatibility with a bunch of mods written for quake3 will at best slow the development down and at worst cripple the game. i reckon quake3 compatibility should be thrown out the window and the focus should be on making the best game possible. if people really want to play the mods then they can either use openarena (which has the quake3 compatibility angle covered) or port the mods to the new technology.
you are probably right. On the other hand q3 compatibility also means that many tutorials also work for OAe. Before something is changed in OAe that breaks q3 compatibility it is important to discuss if and why this step is necessary.
Quote
agreed. make the game as noob friendly as possible. it might be worth looking at some usability guidelines to see what can be applied to the menus. the gnome desktop has something like this. (i've nothing against kde, i'm not trying to start a gnome/kde flamewar).
exactly. Maybe we can even get some help from OpenUsability:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenUsability

Quote
the distinction needs to be made between the underlying gamemode and "mutators" that alter the game play. instagib, for example can be added to any of the gamemodes and while it changes the gameplay the underlying rules are still the same. an instagib deathmatch is still a deathmatch.
yup, that's exactly what I meant.

the name
well, as I said this is not the final name. I just like the name OA Smiley
I also want to make clear that this project has it's origin in OA.
But I understand your arguments and I have no problem with a new name (ideas are welcome)

@dmn_clown
This isn't a good idea right now as GTKRadiant 1.5 is still in the dev. stage with many of the useful plugins (GTKGensurf comes to mind)  simply not building.  Copying the Q3 stuff over into a new folder and editing the default paths in the xml files isn't that difficult.  Besides, not everyone uses GTKRadiant.


At least a detailed step-by-step tutorial would be useful. Maybe some kind of script that makes this even easier.
Quote
[edit] also it would be slightly rude to distribute a tool that won't open the current .map files (unless someone can work out the q3 primitive problem on QuArK edited maps)
So QuArK designed maps are not readable with GtkRadiant?
Quote
Quote
code of conduct

it might be worth having something like ubuntu's code of conduct on the forums. http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct

I thought there already was one (i.e. "don't be a dick").  Smiley
it is always good to let everyone know that there are certain rules of behavior Smiley

I like the code of conduct of Ubuntu and I wished more projects would work with
such a guideline.

cheers
MilesTeg
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shrewd.user
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2007, 09:20:30 am »

this is very simmilar to what i suggested in another thread Cheesy

its a good idea.... cloning quake 3 has been done to death imo.... i would love to see a game that is truly open and shaped by the community.... encompassing old school team fortress style of play to counter strike to maybe even out in the open battlefield style of play


that would be the dream Cheesy:D:D
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2007, 11:10:13 am »

hmm, "don't be a dick" does kind of cover it really.   :-)

shrewd.user, on the subject of "open battlefield style of play", have you got any maps sketched out yet? i've been working out the techniques for modelling buildings and i'm ready to start mapping, i just need a plan to work to. doesn't have to be anything fancy, just some rough scribbles will be enough to get me started.

thanks.
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2007, 12:17:49 pm »


At least a detailed step-by-step tutorial would be useful. Maybe some kind of script that makes this even easier.

http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=213.msg1082#msg1082

enki did a good job on that

Quote
So QuArK designed maps are not readable with GtkRadiant?

QuArK designed maps will not open in GtkRadiant 1.5 (At least on my build which is pretty vanilla other than being 64-bit native) They will open in Q3Radiant stable, however, but the conversion process will mess with texture alignments.  Q3Radiant is under a different license, I believe.

cloning quake 3 has been done to death imo....

But it hasn't been done under the GPLv2
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2007, 09:19:22 pm »


shrewd.user, on the subject of "open battlefield style of play", have you got any maps sketched out yet? i've been working out the techniques for modelling buildings and i'm ready to start mapping, i just need a plan to work to. doesn't have to be anything fancy, just some rough scribbles will be enough to get me started.


battlefield is something i'm not as experienced in (i was always more of a counter strike person)

but if you ask me, battlefield maps are generally coastal, so firstly pick a nice little piece of coast (google maps?) and make that your battle area.

battlefields set up is generally one force invading via sea/air and another intrenched at the back of the battlefield (its not 100% realistic but the idea is more or less balance, so that each team hasn't got any advantages over the other (besides skill and planning))

then of coarse there are capture points and various buildings dotted through out the landscape to provide cover...


but battlefield style gameplay doesn't exist yet and battlefield style maps are a much harder undertaking than counter strike or team fortress (team fortress is generally a perfectly symmetrical map so it would be the easiest)

if counter strike style gameplay were to be made, then the first thing would be to port or re create the classic maps (which have been around for almost a decade Tongue )

here is a list (with pictures) of how CS maps generally look (floor plans incl)
http://hl2.gamona.de/content.php?id=66&tmpl=counterstrike

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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2007, 09:54:04 pm »

Maybe a Capture the Flag with stuff?
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
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I do not provide technical support either.

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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2007, 10:19:45 pm »

How about a snatch style game as seen in Postal 2?  It would be terribly easy to do.
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« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2007, 10:56:17 pm »

This isn't a good idea right now as GTKRadiant 1.5 is still in the dev. stage with many of the useful plugins (GTKGensurf comes to mind)  simply not building.  Copying the Q3 stuff over into a new folder and editing the default paths in the xml files isn't that difficult.  Besides, not everyone uses GTKRadiant.

I was poking around in the GtkRadiant code earlier when I ran across this:

Code:
/*  This program may be freely redistributed under the condition that the    */
/*    copyright notices (including this entire header and the copyright      */
/*    notice printed when the `-h' switch is selected) are not removed, and  */
/*    no compensation is received.  Private, research, and institutional     */
/*    use is free.  You may distribute modified versions of this code UNDER  */
/*    THE CONDITION THAT THIS CODE AND ANY MODIFICATIONS MADE TO IT IN THE   */
/*    SAME FILE REMAIN UNDER COPYRIGHT OF THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR, BOTH SOURCE   */
/*    AND OBJECT CODE ARE MADE FREELY AVAILABLE WITHOUT CHARGE, AND CLEAR    */
/*    NOTICE IS GIVEN OF THE MODIFICATIONS.  Distribution of this code as    */
/*    part of a commercial system is permissible ONLY BY DIRECT ARRANGEMENT  */
/*    WITH THE AUTHOR.  (If you are not directly supplying this code to a    */
/*    customer, and you are instead telling them how they can obtain it for  */
/*    free, then you are not required to make any arrangement with me.)      */

in a main portion of GtkGensurf's code.  We wouldn't be able to distribute the gtkgensurf plugin (Handles terrain) even if it would build as that is clearly incompatible with the GPL (I would assume iD has permission to distribute it).  The best we could do is provide the oa.game folder and oa.game file without getting hold of  Jonathan Richard Shewchuk  at an email address that is 10 years old.
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