Poll
Question: which fix do you want?
being able to shoot through the "grid"
remove railgun
replace with something else say nailgun,lightning, or hey maybe battlesuit
put a trap similar to tourney6ish_ctf
some sort of hazard on the platform(lava,slime,electricity)
remove platforms and have the railgun suspended
move the platforms behind that base and extend the whole map
moving platforms? (this idea needs work)

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Author Topic: oa_ctf4ish needs balance for campers  (Read 92152 times)
Thoushaltdie
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« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2010, 07:29:42 AM »

Gig are you talking about the moving platform that the bfg is on? and if so why should it be changed so that shots cant pass through it?
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Gig
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« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2010, 01:04:49 AM »

Gig are you talking about the moving platform that the bfg is on?
Yes, it's what I said.
Quote
and if so why should it be changed so that shots cant pass through it?
Because of two things. First, to have all the similar grids behave the same way (if we decide to fix the other similar grids to have bullets pass through them, why should one be different?).... searching for coherence. Second, so you would shoot a bit more easily to an hypotetical BFG camper...
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 04:55:02 AM by Gig » Logged

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Thoushaltdie
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« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2010, 11:23:17 AM »

so who can change this map? cuz i dont know how. and i just played a super stupid game with cacatoes where we had 2 noobs camping. I would really like to see this map changed. even if its the only thing changed in 8.6!
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Bane
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« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2010, 12:42:44 PM »

Thoushaltdie I feel your pain I played a game the other day where there where 2 railers up there and to make it worst there was of course the one person that got the BFG so at this point the map became like hell to play but lucky I had a great team and we won that round. I think a lot of our CTF maps just need a huge overhaul and need to be redone or just left out of future versions because they just cause too many problems.
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Thoushaltdie
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« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2010, 01:13:24 PM »

well you could make the case that any map is bad. but i think that small changes, like being able to shoot through the grid can fix, them easily. im just hoping someone with the knowhow will actually make the changes!

Bane we also won our game by having a good team of i think 4 ppl vs like 6. so it was uneven number wise but we were alot better. so like noobs they just started camping and cacatoes had a long debate with one of the noobs about camping ruining the fun of the game but the dude didnt listen so he got kicked. isnt playing with admins fun  Wink
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Joshua
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« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2010, 02:25:26 PM »

I like the idea of shooting through the grate. Here are my thoughts:

Option 1: Modify the Existing Shader

To make it so you can shoot through the grate, a few changes are needed to fix the shader:
  • surfaceparm nonsolid
  • surfaceparm playerclip

Pros
  • Only the shader needs modified.
  • No need to edit and compile map.

Cons
  • Impacts all maps that use this shader.


Option 2: Create a New Shader
The same changes as above, but either packaged with the map or added to clown.shader.

Pros
  • Only the effects this map.

Cons
  • Map needs to be retextured and compiled.
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Proti
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« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2010, 05:29:17 PM »

---PEACEFULLY CENSORED---
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Peter Silie
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« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2010, 03:30:59 AM »

Nice work, Joshua.
I guess, the old shader should be modified, because q3s original shader had nonsolid and playerclip Grin
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 05:17:43 AM by Peter Silie » Logged
Cacatoes
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« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2010, 03:22:09 PM »

Video !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jyPiptULV0
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Bane
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« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2010, 06:13:02 PM »

Nice video Cacatoes and some good points  Smiley
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chaoticsoldier
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« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2010, 07:03:02 PM »

I don't agree with some of the statements in that video:

Quote
You must use every weapon and do not abuse the rail
The use of just one weapon doesn't mean you're a camper. You can use whichever weapon you like. Not moving makes you a camper.

Quote
A good player rarely uses rail
If you're on a space map like that, a good player will probably use it quite frequently.


« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 08:58:12 PM by chaoticsoldier » Logged

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Peter Silie
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« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2010, 03:28:21 AM »

Devastating weapons are always a problem in sophisticated hands:
rg in open maps, lg during close combats and rl is always spammy.
The person who made the maps have to ask himself: does a map like ctf4 needs a rg? or would a lg better fit the gameplay?
The result of a final release of a map is its gaming experience which depends on decisions made earlier by the mapper. But he has to be careful: noobs will not like the rg, pros maybe will like it. or vice versa.

Just changing the map for the convenience of some players isn´t as good as it may look like.
sago - as an example - put the pl into its oasago2, which lead to an unplayable version. He removed the pl very fast and all were happy.
But what will happen, if the rg will be removed from ctf4?
I think the shader modification is the better solution here.
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Cacatoes
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« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2010, 04:14:03 AM »

I think first point was more: learn to master every weapon, rather than stick to a single one
Second point: why a good player should frequently use rail if goal is not to win ? (one of the other statement you implicitely agreed Cheesy)

Now, some various experiments have already been done with replacing railgun
Even played it on elimination without railgun recently, was not so bad.
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Peter Silie
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« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2010, 05:12:46 AM »

Which weapon do you suggest instead of the rail?
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Bane
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« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2010, 06:57:02 AM »

I don’t get why there seems to be a rail gun on open maps because to me it just turns into a giant shooting range and I notice that sometimes because of this some people that where going for the flag just stop and just start to rail camp themselves because they probably are thinking why even try for the flag when I get kill no matter what way I go. Maybe the plasmas gun would be a good replacement of the rail gun or we could use the chain gun. Also maybe having red armor instead of the yellow armor and 1 more health bubble would help make things a little bit more manageable.
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Cacatoes
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« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2010, 07:29:11 AM »

Plasma was fun to use on open space maps, but we didn't play it for a long time.
I'd vote for people to keep rail, the map can be fun with it too, maybe less ammo ? 5 instead of 10. And if some way to shoot from below is given then it would help too.
Chaingun would kinda make double use with machinegun, which is already very efficient here.
I think health is manageable, this is a map where you die quick (and it has to be that way, it's not so difficult to get the flag and come back, every match I played didn't have this problem of flag being so difficult to bring and score, and if it was, it was due to bad organization of teams) ; also, there is already MH, I don't time it but one could if he really wants.
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Thoushaltdie
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« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2010, 09:29:30 PM »

i dont think that there should be more health. but i think plasma or chain would be nice. but in the end of the day i still think that the best fix would be to let ppl shoot through the middle of the platform. after all we only trying to fix it for campers who sit up there because its high up and the ammo spawns there.

I for one use the railgun where others us the machinegun and shotgun. this does make me a camper. this is an open map, the railgun is nice to have but i have seen some people who can take people out from across the map with rockets. most people cant do that. so i think that rail is fine because its insta hit and ppl can get to the other side superquick in this map and you need some way to be able to kill them before then can score 20 times.

One thing i dont like is that anyway to get to the other side means you HAVE to go over a jump pad or rocketjump. this leads to waaaaaay to much abuse of the railgun (by pushing people to their deaths). and i admit that i am one of the worst abusers of this feature. still if they arent camping over your base you CAN kill them with the machinegun and get a railgun yourself so i dont think the whole map is broken.
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Gig
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« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2010, 02:23:34 AM »

I like the idea of shooting through the grate. Here are my thoughts:

Option 1: Modify the Existing Shader

To make it so you can shoot through the grate, a few changes are needed to fix the shader:
  • surfaceparm nonsolid
  • surfaceparm playerclip

Pros
  • Only the shader needs modified.
  • No need to edit and compile map.

Cons
  • Impacts all maps that use this shader.


Option 2: Create a New Shader
The same changes as above, but either packaged with the map or added to clown.shader.

Pros
  • Only the effects this map.

Cons
  • Map needs to be retextured and compiled.

I'm not sure what is better. If that shader is expected to behave like in Q3 (projectiles pass through), it would be a nice idea to fix it. I've seen (but not tested) that there are third part map packs that allow to add original Q3A maps to OpenArena... using them such "grids" work like in oa_ctf4ish or like the original q3ctf4 under Q3A? Probably making that shader behave like the original would "fix" various maps... if 100% Q3A stuff compatibility is an OpenArena goal, it should be fixed. But an important question: has that shader got the same name that is used in q3a, or not? I mean, maybe are there already two different sharders or something similar?

On the other side, if there are some maps designed expressly for OpenArena, using that shader for intentionally blocking shots, changing it would change gameplay in those maps, too... maybe doing something different from the map creator's intentions...
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Thoushaltdie
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« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2010, 08:57:25 AM »

why not just use the same stuff as the platform that the bfg is on?
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Gig
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« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2010, 09:53:26 AM »

why not just use the same stuff as the platform that the bfg is on?
As I told before, it seems to me that the BFG plaftorm has the same problem than the other two plaforms (except for the fact that it moves).
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sago007
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« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2010, 09:56:35 AM »

why not just use the same stuff as the platform that the bfg is on?
As I told before, it seems to me that the BFG plaftorm has the same problem than the other two plaforms (except for the fact that it moves).
Yet nobody complains about bfg campers on that map. I am just throwing in new ideas but one could also make the rail suspended so that you got it on the way to the platform and had to get down and up again to get new ammo.
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Gig
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« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2010, 10:27:24 AM »

why not just use the same stuff as the platform that the bfg is on?
As I told before, it seems to me that the BFG plaftorm has the same problem than the other two plaforms (except for the fact that it moves).
Yet nobody complains about bfg campers on that map. I am just throwing in new ideas but one could also make the rail suspended so that you got it on the way to the platform and had to get down and up again to get new ammo.
Yes, a moving platform isn't bad against campers, also if I suppose that good railers (not me) and delag technology can be quite deadly also in that situation. BFG is also a bit less effective than RG at high distances (not being hitscan) and a BFG camper would be between the crossed fire of two railguns. I don't say that BFG camping there is a problem, now... but if we fix the grids, we should fix all the similar grids in that map.
The idea of having railguns suspeded mid-air is already in the poll (and, I don't know why, that option has no votes until now).
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I never want to be aggressive, offensive or ironic with my posts. If you find something offending in my posts, read them again searching for a different mood there. If you still see something bad with them, please ask me infos. I can be wrong at times, but I never want to upset anyone.
Peter Silie
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« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2010, 12:10:51 PM »

Unfortunaly with an incomatible shader, it could be possible, that a q3 map is unplayable with oa.
And oas main goal is to get 100% (standard argument of this site - scnr! Grin).
Now we have a clear decision on the shader and no further discussion needed (Joshua already showed up the parts to be changed, fromhell can do it very quick and put the changes to svn, because no other can.).

The other point is to modify oa_ctf4ish - but this is just a usual process of a map: modification by somebody who likes to do it...
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Cacatoes
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« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2010, 08:54:16 AM »

BFG is not abused, only begginers try to catch it and they don't harm much with it.

Some other suggestion:
- replace railgun with plasma
- replace bfg with railgun, eventually with less ammo

At least, I think I'll do that as soon as the replace functions are available into OAX.

Lucky me, I can try several settings and experiment with them in real conditions, not only by guessing changing this one will do it. Progressively change one thing and another to test.

I've already removed Kamikaze, it brought a few coward tactics on this map which don't piss me off but which I find just lame, lol. And I let it for some months, it was okay to play with it, mainly had to deal with stupid falls due to kamikaze blow push.
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Thoushaltdie
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« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2010, 09:10:05 AM »

why is kamikaze in the game? its a terrible powerup and spawns way to often!!!
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