Once server is empty, reinitialize settings

[Cacatoes]

Some way to submit an event when a server is left empty of human players.
Bots may be left, and maps would be rotating without human intervention, though that wouldn't be a problem.

Happens I find some of my servers with weird maps and game modes.
I should anticipate this and with a simple:

Code:

set reinitialize "g_gametype 0 ; etc etc ..."
vstr reinitialize

... the problem would be fixed.
Still, I would have to issue that command manually.

Other way to deal with it would be to forbid some votes, but still that would restrict players.

[Gig]

About votes... three questions:
From (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Servers :

   //g_voteNames "/map_restart/nextmap/map/g_gametype/kick/clientkick/g_doWarmup/timelimit/fraglimit/"
    //g_voteGametypes "/0/1/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10/11/12/"
    //g_voteMaps "/ctf_inyard/oa_ctf4ish/hydronex/oasago2/" (no longer available in 0.8.5)

Question 1) Why the third has been removed... ? :-/

Question 2) If I type \g_votenames in my console, I see another option there /shuffle/.... what is shuffle?

Question 3) Is it normal that there is no capturelimit vote?

[sago007]

From (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Servers :

    //g_voteNames "/map_restart/nextmap/map/g_gametype/kick/clientkick/g_doWarmup/timelimit/fraglimit/"
    //g_voteGametypes "/0/1/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10/11/12/"
    //g_voteMaps "/ctf_inyard/oa_ctf4ish/hydronex/oasago2/" (no longer available in 0.8.5)

.. and I don't know why the third has been removed... :-/

g_voteNames and g_voteGametypes are still there. They are outcommented in the suggested config to allow them to take default values.
g_voteMaps has been replaced by the file votemaps.cfg

[Gig]

g_voteMaps has been replaced by the file votemaps.cfg

So I think we should write something about that, I suggest to write "//g_voteMaps "/ctf_inyard/oa_ctf4ish/hydronex/oasago2/" (no longer available in 0.8.5, use votemaps.cfg file instead)", and creating an apposite section for that, to explain where ad how create that file (an example of its sintax, I mean).

And what's "shuffle"?

PS and OT: I "commented" by default \rconpassword in that server config example, because I fear that enabling it without customizing the password (holding the example one) would be a security risk!

[sago007]

And what's "shuffle"?

Takes the human players and shuffles them around to make teams even.

The problem with votemaps.cfg is that it currently exists half (0.8.5 not in 0.8.1). It is a prime candidate for getting its own g_votemapsfile cvar and possible use files from g_mappools (the mapfiles used for g_autonextmap).

[Gig]

And what's "shuffle"?

Takes the human players and shuffles them around to make teams even.

I feel I'm missing something. I tried "shuffle" command playing by myself. If the gametype isn't with teams, it seems to do nothing. If it is with teams, it makes the match begin again (wiping out scores), but I'm always in the same team as the beginning... (I was the only human player in my local server, obviously)
Does it have any parameters?

[Cacatoes]

(I was the only human player in my local server, obviously)

And that explains the problem.

[Gig]

Could you please try to connect to my server (now closed)?
I'd like to make a try...

UPDATE: We just did a small try with Sago... the team switch is not random, it depends from score in some way... If we were both at 0 frags we were put always in the same teams. If one of us had less points than the other one, he remained on his team.... But we should try with more players...
Probably it tries to switch each team better players trying to compensate overall skill levell, but I don't know the exact behaviour

Our test remembered me about another question... why in OpenArena sometimes it is possible to have negative scores and sometimes not?

[RMF]

085servers dont have negative score iirc (rubbish imo). Tho when you play with 085 at an 081srv it will have neg scores cuz its serverside.

[Gig]

085servers dont have negative score iirc (rubbish imo). Tho when you play with 085 at an 081srv it will have neg scores cuz its serverside.

But with our test of yesterday (TDM with Sago007), scores went to -1 when we suicided... My server was 0.8.5.

[RMF]

hm DM only i thought (forgot to note).. not sure though if that includes tdm. Oh well

[sago007]

Negative scores are only removed from FFA gamemodes, teammodes needs them to show teamkillers. LMS and 1v1 converts suicides to point for the opponent so it has no effect there.

I looked a little in the source and the shuffle should work like this:
1. Sort all players (this takes teams into account, so the leading team will be first)
2. Take the first player and put on red.
3. Take next two players and put on blue.
4. Take next two players and put on red
5. Go to 3.

Bots are never counted because they might be set with bot_minplayers and will even themself out afterwards.

It was a little wierd what happened yesterday with Gig. We should have changed teams depending on the team that was ahead. There might be some bugs there.

EDIT:
Updated with step 4

[Peter Silie]

If you read your above example, you will find the bug: red will get 1 player each iteration, blue two.

(scnr and it was a good and quick example for what is going on there!)

[Gig]

1. Sort all players (this takes teams into account, so the leading team will be first)

Excuse me, how exactly?

If you have (letter=player, number=frags)
Blue team with A=10, B=5, C=3 (total 18)
Red team with D=8, E=7, F=5 (total 20),
How will it sort them initially, ad more important, how will it rearrange them at the end?

[sago007]

1. Sort all players (this takes teams into account, so the leading team will be first)

Excuse me, how exactly?

If you have (letter=player, number=frags)
Blue team with A=10, B=5, C=3 (total 18)
Red team with D=8, E=7, F=5 (total 20),
How will it sort them initially, ad more important, how will it rearrange them at the end?

D - Red
E - Blue
F - Blue
A - Red
B - Red
C - Blue
This is a bit unfortunately but this is how the game sorts. It would properly be better to ignore teams and I possible believed the sort function worked that way at the time I implemented it.
If it ignored teams it would look like this:
A - Red
D - Blue
E - Blue
F - Red
B - Red
C - Blue
But that still isn't much better in this case. Then again the teams was pretty fair before you called the vote.

Trying to even perfectly based on scores only can also be a bit problematic because in most team games the teammates will passively get some point.

[Gig]

At least, if it would not count teams, it would not put D and A (the best players in the previous example) in the same team...

Maybe we should try with other values (Sago, please don't kill me! )... with teams less balanced.
What's about this starting situation?
Blue team with A=22, B=17, C=5, G=2 (total 46)
Red team with D=12, E=11, F=5, H=1 (total 29)

[Gig]

Well, concluding about shuffle.... if you have time to talk with fromhell and other devs and you want to think about a better way to divide teams... anyway I suppose that feature is not used very much (only a feeling)...

Do we want to return to the original topic, about Cacatoes' idea?

[GrosBedo]

Well, concluding about shuffle.... if you have time to talk with fromhell and other devs and you want to think about a better way to divide teams... anyway I suppose that feature is not used very much (only a feeling)...

It's not used very much because noone knows about it, and people aren't yet used to use it (and if I understand well it's only available on 085 servers).

For example, on Wolfenstein : Enemy Territory, this feature was widely used (and sometimes abused), but it kind of fixed the problem of unbalanced teams.

Wouldn't it be better to base the shuffling system on a (kills/deaths)+teamscore ratio rather than just score ?

[RMF]

often people also join a specific team to play with specfic people (when it's balanced and you are choosing one 'random' whynot choose to play with people you like). With shuffling you randomly get kicked to some team and you have to check if you're still in the same team, or with who else you are.
Also this isn't newb friendly as they think they are in the team they chose themselves at the start of the game. They'll notice it after a few moments but it's still annoying.
Tbh i don't like getting autochanged team either (rather balance it myself but i understand not everyone does ofcourse).

I'm not saying the function should get out again (sure it might be nice now and then), but just explaining why i think it's never used now (also not by people who do know it).

[GrosBedo]

often people also join a specific team to play with specfic people (when it's balanced and you are choosing one 'random' whynot choose to play with people you like).

Because that's stupid : if you want to play in the same team as your friends, either do a clan match, or play in a LAN. Doing this on an Internet servers is just polluting it.

If you want to really balance a game, then this kind of consideration is totally meaningless. That's why shuffle is a very good feature : it does fix the problem for you. Anyway, this feature is votable, so it would only be actionned if the majority of users want it, so the minority (who are generally the ones unbalancing) would and should be ignored.

However, I can't see why it wouldn't be adopted widely in OpenArena as it was in Enemy Territory, it's just a matter of time (and good implementation). Personnally, I waited for this feature since v0.6.0.

[RMF]

joining the other team then the one you like would be just as imbalancing and 'polluting' as joining the one you would like. As i said, the teams were equal.
And yes i'm ignoring the option to idle/spec and wait for someone to leave.

[GrosBedo]

joining the other team then the one you like would be just as imbalancing and 'polluting' as joining the one you would like. As i said, the teams were equal.
And yes i'm ignoring the option to idle/spec and wait for someone to leave.

Or just callvote shuffle, which would provide a way to rebalance the whole game by moving not only one player, but all players.