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Author Topic: [WIP] CTF Map "Pretzel"  (Read 49393 times)
VortexHU
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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2010, 01:52:55 PM »

I know that my English is far from perfect... I meant the outer circle routes of the map. Also, I meant I liked it better with ceiling.

no, i just didnt infer what u meant properly (but i did think map's size was what u meant, idk y i asked that). that was in the same sentence as whole map having ceiling, so i should have figured. apologies. remember that grammatically good english or any other lang can still be ambiguous (i know native english speakers who use pronouns b4 defining them or answer no when they mean yes).

anyway, so maybe reduce size of map? original (never posted it) was half the size, i just scaled it up to see how it'd be. Smiley say scale 0.8 or just manually move the outer walls in a bit?

edit: would the constrictions (cf. pigcell's post) help w/perceived size reduction?
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VortexHU
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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2010, 01:54:49 PM »

Pretty much, yes. It gives you the following options:
- creating a choke point, as a kind of hotspot where most fights occur, rather than having them equally distributed along the path
- putting the highly rewarding armour in a dangerous position where players can fight over it and possibly get caught off guard when trying to pick it up
- enable ambushes (might be as simple as a pillar to break things up)

It might even reduce the need to do extra fancy things to the walls, because the geometry makes the path more unique and recognisable.

any maps u like that do this sort of thing w/hallways?
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Graion Dilach
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« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2010, 02:22:02 PM »

edit: would the constrictions (cf. pigcell's post) help w/perceived size reduction?

Yes, they could. The inner ways are good only the outer circle is too wide, IMO.
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VortexHU
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« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2010, 06:08:11 PM »

new version.
  • lowered middle way to below flags
  • shoot-through windows to middle (but bots dont use)
  • broken obstacles strewn about

the outer ways arent rly smaller but the bots mostly take the flag that route anyway, so will do in next version. btw i think when i add the ceiling again the windows will be smaller (more line-like, sort of standard sci-fi Smiley ).
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Graion Dilach
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« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2010, 05:48:48 AM »

Previous version was better, IMO.

Bug: the wall on shot 0223.jpg hasn't got a width, also there is some overlapping problems where it meets with the stairs.
Also a spawnpoint is placed too high.
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VortexHU
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« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2010, 12:07:47 PM »

Previous version was better, IMO.
i think the same, but was worth a shot. anything i could move to the prev version? e.g., r the outer way obstacles good?

Bug: the wall on shot 0223.jpg hasn't got a width, also there is some overlapping problems where it meets with the stairs.
Also a spawnpoint is placed too high.
yeh spawnpoints hadnt moved, odd how weaps drop down in engine but spawn pts dont (by default?).
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« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2010, 04:54:34 AM »

Try it and see it. I can't tell you more. I'm not good at merging two maps in my mind... especially when those two maps are too different.

But rocks looks a bit out of place in this map, IMO.
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VortexHU
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« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2010, 05:15:05 PM »

new version. changes:
  • reverted back to higher middle way, camp cave w/bars, small tunnel
  • ceiling is back w/some decoration
  • lighting w/light texs instead of point lights
  • obstacles in outer ways now just look like supports
  • thin windows along the sides

let me know what u think!

Try it and see it. I can't tell you more. I'm not good at merging two maps in my mind... especially when those two maps are too different.

But rocks looks a bit out of place in this map, IMO.

yeah i trashed the rocks. Smiley
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Graion Dilach
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« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2010, 03:05:30 AM »

Looks great! Definitely.

I like it.
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St0n3*r
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« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2010, 05:38:04 PM »

Gonna test it tomorow Wink
too much party for decent feedback atm ^^

look nice looking pic Smiley
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VortexHU
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« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2010, 03:21:54 PM »

new version. changes:
  • most large surfaces retextured, used Udi's photos as basis (thx a lot! Smiley )
  • changed light geometries somewhat
  • windows fixed so u cant see the bad parts of the skybox

couple of "decals" in middle to see what it looks like, r they necessary? maybe near the tunnels?

couldnt get real _decals to work reliably, so used thin (1 u) brushes. unfortunately u can see the separation if u get close to the lights, would like to get decals working. any1 know how? oa maps seem to use similar workarounds... also im thinking i'll just use the glows on my new lights, not the fixture img b/c i didnt draw it that well...

texturing comments? looking fwd to stoner's thoughts. Smiley

note: pk3 wouldnt attach, unzip this file to get it.
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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2010, 06:32:21 AM »

Tested, looks nice! I'm impressed.

A note: I was surprised when I saw you use the flagbase so I did a test on the extended gametypes. However, the flagbase has a purpose in Harvester and Overload, so it shouldn't be used as decoration. In Harvester, you have to bring the skulls to the flagbase and in Overload the base's spawned upon the flagbases, as you can see.



Although Harvester won't work on this map, because it misses the neutral flag, Overload works greatly. Also, Domination points are missing, too.

I know your aim is a good CTF map, these are just my thoughts.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2010, 09:47:53 AM »

The floating base problem can be fixed by placing the origin of the flagbase in the floor. And don't worry about the model. It's just misaligned.
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VortexHU
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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2010, 10:14:00 AM »

Although Harvester won't work on this map, because it misses the neutral flag, Overload works greatly. Also, Domination points are missing, too.

I know your aim is a good CTF map, these are just my thoughts.

i'll remove them, i've never played any of those game types on OA and dont yet have any ideas about level design therefor. Smiley

btw whats the model u'r using in that screenshot? the head looks unfamiliar.

The floating base problem can be fixed by placing the origin of the flagbase in the floor. And don't worry about the model. It's just misaligned.

thanks, maybe i'll try bases again in the future.
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Gig
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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2010, 01:02:49 PM »

Never tried the additional gametypes? They are nice. You can find some info about them DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Manual/Gamemodes]here.

For informations about how to create maps for them, you can refer to DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_information_for_special_gametypes]this page (I'm begging Neon Knight to do some further improvements in that page...).

For better aligned flagbases and obelisks models (to do not have to bury them in the floor), you can take a look to this thread (I'm sorry I can't tell you how to use different models for entities).
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 02:22:22 PM by Gig » Logged

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Graion Dilach
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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2010, 02:11:02 PM »

i'll remove them, i've never played any of those game types on OA and dont yet have any ideas about level design therefor. Smiley

btw whats the model u'r using in that screenshot? the head looks unfamiliar.

The floating base problem can be fixed by placing the origin of the flagbase in the floor. And don't worry about the model. It's just misaligned.

thanks, maybe i'll try bases again in the future.

No, please, don't do it, this is my favourite Overload map so far. I like the floating bases, the only problem is Harvester, I guess. Instead, I suggest putting a white flag into the middle. Also, for Double Domination, I think the dompoints should be put into the middle of the two sideways (where the yellow armors and 50 healths are).

BTW, the model I use is a home-made finished Brawl model from ioquake's site (it lacked the teamskins and the bot was completely broken).
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VortexHU
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« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2010, 04:16:56 AM »

new version. changes:
  • more decoration/lighting, tried to remove what didnt fit and trying new designs
  • added support for one-flag capture, overload, harvester, double domination, and domination

design changes better or worse? do the gametypes work for u? suggestions if u'r more experienced w/the gametype in question than me? Smiley

[additional gametypes]

thanks, that helped me update the map for these.

[non-ctf suggestions]

implemented (except obelisks dont float anymore).

BTW, the model I use is a home-made finished Brawl model from ioquake's site (it lacked the teamskins and the bot was completely broken).

checked out the model repository. any of that gpl or public domain and worthwhile? :p
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Graion Dilach
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« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2010, 06:11:50 AM »

Regarding models, none that I do know of. I just love Transformers that's why I got all TF models from there and my favourite is Brawl for the cheer line and because it's partly my work. Smiley

There are some problems with spawnpoints on the additional gametypes, also the arena file didn't contained the support.

Code:
type "ctf oneflag harvester overload ctfelimination dd dom"

Still my favourite.
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St0n3*r
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« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2010, 06:15:29 AM »

Yo sorry for late answer :/
I'm on exams so till february don't count of me that much ^_^

Anyways, i liked 1st version
I don't liked 2nd (like all was prefering the previous) [EDIT : i mean 020e]

Then i don't tested till the last.
Very very good all changes go in right way Smiley
I only tested CTF but i liked a lot, even bots seem to enjoy map better Tongue

I like items placement in corridors, i like way you have to enter in down corridors, i like the little hole you have around to keep an eyes on enemies ( Grin )

Mmm during my fast try i don't get lot of ideas :/ Was thinking during walking fast on down corridors "ahhhh we are so close to hit the light" but dunno if it's a good idea to hit it..
That will add some strategy about how to take this way, but in other hand way seem so balanced atm that adding diificulties in one will maybe make map unfair ^^
So don't know  Tongue

Any ways good work!
Will try to keep an eye here, but im not sure i can Wink
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PigCell
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« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2010, 06:47:40 AM »

Really love the new textures and brushwork, especially that lamp alcove design. I take it you're going for the realistic lighting approach, meaning all light coming from natural sources. Maybe you could still sneak the one or the other low-intensity light entity in, just to smooth things out a wee bit.

I think the tighter middle path works very well, however I don't know how humans might abuse it as I only tried a botmatch.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2010, 10:55:51 AM »

Harvester and 1FCTF won't work at all on this map. 2/3 of the maps (the lateral corridors) won't be used at all, unless you apply a func_static which covers the two direct entrances to the base.

I've tested the new version and it was improved. Yet, some suggestions:

* Those balconys which are over the flag base are too campeable. Consder replacing them with a glass. (Texture dsi/glass)
* Many areas are still dark. A good advice on how to improve the map is to play with Tony and force the models to normal Tony or Tony/blue. Use r_gamma 1.0, and check for dark areas. A way to combat them is to place many light entities with lower range values. (start from 10, and go upwards until you find the value which don't ruin the lighting of the level and where you can see Tony) You can also check the dsi texture pack and use the tlight* textures for player guidance, like Hydronex*, for example.
* I saw that you put the Nailgun in there. As a rule of thumb, if you place any Team Arena items, (Nail, Chain, Prox, Invulnerability or Kamikaze) you should place as well the Team runes. (Doubler, Guard, AmmoRegen or Scout) which act as the counter for these new items.
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Graion Dilach
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« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2010, 12:56:00 PM »

Errm... Neon, a question. Where should we bring the skulls?

Because on this map both the skulls and the neutral flag must be brought to the opponent team's obelisk. This should be changed, then?
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Gig
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« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2010, 01:17:05 PM »

Because on this map both the skulls and the neutral flag must be brought to the opponent team's obelisk.

Well, this is the standard behavior for Harvester and Overload modes.... isn't it?
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2010, 03:17:13 PM »

Errm... Neon, a question. Where should we bring the skulls?

Because on this map both the skulls and the neutral flag must be brought to the opponent team's obelisk. This should be changed, then?
There can be two options regarding this mode:

- In the newer versions I've noticed small passages which end in the lateral routes. Those could be wider, if the design of the map allows it, and may become the routes to the center area. If implemented, there should be walls (using func_static) placed in the stairs, so direct passage shouldn't be possible.

- Don't do any change to the map and just remove the 1FCTF/Harvester support. After all, not every map needs to be playable in that mode. (I.E. ps37ctf(2))

As much as I love the Harvester mode, I'm afraid that not every CTF map has a chance to become a good Harvester map, as well as how not every DM map has a chance to become a good CTF level when mirrored. It's all about the gameplay in this case, you know.
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VortexHU
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« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2010, 03:50:04 PM »

long post time!


There are some problems with spawnpoints on the additional gametypes, also the arena file didn't contained the support.

added to .arena, thx. what kind of behavior r we looking for in the other game types re: spawning?

Regarding models, none that I do know of. I just love Transformers that's why I got all TF models from there and my favourite is Brawl for the cheer line and because it's partly my work. Smiley

the TF concept is pretty cool, i see the appeal (i remem beast wars/beasties, good stuff). ur work involves TF? Shocked

Still my favourite.
Grin


[exams]

real life is more important! still thx for taking the time!

Mmm during my fast try i don't get lot of ideas :/ Was thinking during walking fast on down corridors "ahhhh we are so close to hit the light" but dunno if it's a good idea to hit it..
That will add some strategy about how to take this way, but in other hand way seem so balanced atm that adding diificulties in one will maybe make map unfair ^^
So don't know  Tongue

im sure strafers would appreciate that a lot. :p i might widen and place obstacles in the campbox tunnels (see neon's posts).

Maybe you could still sneak the one or the other low-intensity light entity in, just to smooth things out a wee bit.

i realized after i uploaded that i hadn't used -bounces 8 for lighting. would adding additional visible lights be too much clutter, or should i maybe try that first? also, is there a place for dark shadows in map design? i remember feigning death in unreal tournament... Smiley

I think the tighter middle path works very well, however I don't know how humans might abuse it as I only tried a botmatch.

what kind of abuse, for example?


Harvester and 1FCTF won't work at all on this map. 2/3 of the maps (the lateral corridors) won't be used at all, unless you apply a func_static which covers the two direct entrances to the base.

so in both of these modes the large stairs and their entrances to the middle way should be blocked off?

* Those balconys which are over the flag base are too campeable. Consder replacing them with a glass. (Texture dsi/glass)

how about lower walls and ceiling that open towards the flag to make splash damage and spamming the camp boxes easier as well?

[too dark]

thanks, i'll try that. hope i can func_group lights...

[Team Arena items]

are there any oa maps that r good examples of this? any time i've seen these team arena items i've also not seen the team runes (tho i haven't gone looking for them). i might just remove the nailgun. would rox be too much for the base of the camp box instead of the nailgun? or maybe sg should go there.


[func_static wall +, wider campbox tunnels or drop 1FCTF/Harvester support]

probably better just to add that simple modification (good idea btw) and let the players and server operators decide whether they want to play those modes?

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