points' allocation system

[Moixie]

Hello

First of all, it's not really a suggestion because I havn't prepared another concrete system to replace the actual one.

So, actually, a good part of Oa players think that points represent "exactly" how good someone is (they are stupid, but it isn't the problem).

Then, in ctf for instance, the biggest problem is that the actual system "encourages" these (stupid !) players to stay in their base:

Attacker:
When they are in the ennemy's base, everytime they kill someone they get 1 ridiculous point. If they take the flag and run, the most of the time... they die (and even if they don't, they get 5 points)

Defenders:
They are waiting in the base, it means that they are prepared to kill players (they have weapons and healths so). Ennemies that come are attacker, if they had met someone before they haven't all their life so the job isn't so hard, everytime they kill one, they get 2 points . They can even let him take the flag (I have already seen players doing that...) and kill him . Moreever, they get 4 point. They kill 3 attackers and they have more than the attacker that took the flag and captured it. Then, they can also steal the flag to their attacker to capture it themselves... 5 points !

I don't propose any other system to replace it, I just think it should change because ctf games in public servers start to be impossible (5 defenders for 1 attacker a team Oo). I guess, attackers should win some more points everytime they kill an ennemy in ennemy's base (it's not a nice way either, it would encourage respawn killing which is even worse...) and this stupid 2 points for killing an ennemy in the base should disappear... This changement, would change players' mentalities. Players that "camped" before will attack for the same reason.... points.

Or, we can change mentalities. But wanting to be better, or to seem, is one of the most natural human's defect. (or quality for some people..) 

[Bane]

       I think people should get 10 or 20 points for capturing the flag. The main reason I think this is because it would encourage people to get the flag and not stay and camp.       
 
       Don’t get me wrong I do believe defenders are important and when I see all of my teammates go for the flag I usually stay back at the base to defend it so we at least have one defender and even if I don’t kill the guy going for our flag I feel I at least weakened him.

      Also another thing I was wondering is maybe if we could get some points if we got the flag a certain distance back but where kill and some one else had to pick up the flag and take capture it, because it kind of sucks that you did all the work and they get the points.

[Cacatoes]

Moixie, you may be aware points are counted differently in the missionpack mod.
I don't appreciate so much that M.P counting system (I didn't feel it very rewarding), but it's worth trying.

I agree with you, defenders can be boring, this can be explained:
If you play CTF 1VS1, you can't remain a defender: you have to go take the flag, otherwise the game doesn't progress.
When you are more players, if you remain defender, that "non-progression" aspect is preserved, the game doesn't end thanks to you, so the game only is viable if attackers are strong enough to overcome defenders.
Some way to fix this would be to provide mandatory mid-term objectives (leave your base or be killed/lose a point).

That distance idea is not bad either, I was thinking something like "the more you're in a risky/hot/challenging place, the more you get points for your actions", like weighed points. Though what is a hot place has to be defined, that could be: the more you're far from your own flag, the more your actions should weigh. Though that would have bad side-effects, like encouraging people to camp in enemy base.
Maybe we can reward movement, variety of actions, but this isn't easy to conceptualize

[RMF]

I agree with moixie that the CTF score system is not always representative for a player's skill or effort in the game. I've seen players around the same level as I am at, getting a lot less score than I would get. Or people not as good as me who get more score.
Capturing should give a lot more score, and I see no use in 'defence'. Often the defence award is given at the wrong time (I often get it, as an attacker..).

[7]

Often the defence award is given at the wrong time (I often get it, as an attacker..).

That' s because you not only get a defense award for protecting your base but for protecting your flag carrier also. More exactly you get a defense award when you frag an enemy player who is either in your base or has hurt your teams flag carrier anywhere on the map.

[Moixie]

That' s because you not only get a defense award for protecting your base but for protecting your flag carrier also.

when this case happens you get 3 points ( 1 + 2 bonus).

Bahh, I just made a list:

_ Bonus points to the defender, actual system, it encourages base camping/defending

_ Bonus points to attackers, ennemy's base camping --> respawn killing?

_ More points for capturing a flag, opportunist captures would make me sick. I just imagine that I do all the work and that someone of my team prevents me to capture (with rocket or rail... dunno), I die, "sniped" (camped !) by an ennemy at 250m like it usually happens in ctf and my stupid team mates captures the flag. if I'd think what I said about points, I'd be disgusted.

_ risky points (I don't really know if that's possible to create some "hot places" in fonction of how many opponents are around), bahh... if someone takes too much risks and die too oftenly, is he useful in a team?

what else?

[pulchr]

remove all points from ctf and let the team with the most captures win?

[Bane]

I have had that happen to me sometime Moxie I get the flag make it so close and then I get the dreaded “Holy Shit” die and someone just sitting railing captures the flag  or sometimes the flag is just left and ignored my someone right next to it and of  course it returned. I just try and forget about it because it is a public server so not everyone has changed there setting and some still have the default FOV and probably can’t see it.

Also Pluchr not sure if you a serious of not about that suggestion but I think it is worth a try maybe

[pulchr]

no, it wasn't a serious proposition - it's just the way it's always gonna be on public servers, unfortunately.

[RMF]

Well we could just count frags and some extra points per flag (like 5-10pts). That'll be simple enough..

[adriano]

remove all points from ctf and let the team with the most captures win?

That is what counts in serious matchs, in CWs.


In public a possible change could be also that:
- 1 instead of 2 points for defending
- 7 instead of 5 points for taking the flag (the one only carrier)
- when the carrier dies and someone else takes the flag, then only 3 points

[7]

If adriano means you get zero points for fragging someone without it being a defense I think it might actually work. You should give a point for fragging the flag carrier though. Here's my 2 cents:

1 point for killing the enemy flag carrier anywhere on the map
1 point for defending the flag carrier (killing someone who's hurt but not killed your flag carrier)
1 point for defending the base (killing an enemy inside your base, this means 2 points for killing the enemy flag carrier inside your base)
3 points for picking up a flag (picking up the enemy flag as well as returning your own)
4 points extra if the pickup was of an enemy flag and happened inside the enemy base
5 points for completing a capture
0 points for everything else

Edit: fine tuning

[Bane]

That sounds liek a good way to deal out points 7

[7]

I don't know bane, the more I think about it the less I like it. The problem is that picking up a flag gives you too much points, so on a public server the attackers probably wouldn't defend their flag carrier in order to get a shot at picking up the flag themselves. Second try:

1 point for killing the enemy flag carrier
1 point for defending the base (killing an enemy inside your base, this means 2 points for killing the enemy flag carrier inside your base)
1 point for defending the flag carrier (killing someone who's hurt but not killed your flag carrier)
1 point extra if the defense of the flag carrier happened while inside the enemy base
1 point for picking up a flag (picking up the enemy flag as well as returning your own)
2 points extra if the pickup was of an enemy flag and happened inside the enemy base
4 points for completing a capture
0 points for everything else

[Cacatoes]

This is like an unsolvable puzzle, if you make something worth a point, you'll always tend to favorize behaviors which exploit that way to obtain point.
Even simple kills have downsides: they'll make you try to obtain the most kills, which means you could spam or use any strategy to get them, and eventually spoil the game.

There may be ways to prevent people from taking the easy shortcut to take points, but I'd tend to think changing points of particular events (which are easily "stolen") won't help much. It could be slightly different if you plan more varied and longer in time goals, like: one has to move and reach that place, then that place, then some other, to earn points ... playing more with moves, because these are moves which turn you into an easy target. I haven't played them online so I can't say but it's already a principle of assault/defense-like modes.

Maybe something like: until you didn't move and reach some place, you won't be able to earn any point. Or, the more you realize objectives, the more points count. But It's still like you add constraints but always allow large freedom in-between.

We can wonder if rewards aren't problems in themselves in the way the incitate people to do specific stuff, it's not the first time I talk about a non-competitive mod :p

[RMF]

Or we measure the distance you travelled carrying the flag towards your own flag/base, and a bonus when you capture. That motivates people to move (and in a direction, so not just wandering around), the only problem is that it's a bit more complex than counting frags and a bonus when capping (that's what the system basically is now).

[7]

This is like an unsolvable puzzle, if you make something worth a point, you'll always tend to favorize behaviors which exploit that way to obtain point.
Even simple kills have downsides: they'll make you try to obtain the most kills, which means you could spam or use any strategy to get them, and eventually spoil the game.

Agreed, I think the goal shouldn't be a 'perfect' scoring system because perfection is subjective and impossible to achieve in programming. I think a scoring system that tries to minimize abuse is something different and not quite as hard to achieve. By taking away the points for non-defense and non-carrier kills you minimize the abuse by railgun maniacs for instance, because railing random enemies on neutral territory is no longer a good scoring strategy.

We can wonder if rewards aren't problems in themselves in the way the incitate people to do specific stuff, it's not the first time I talk about a non-competitive mod :p

The pickup bonuses in my suggestions are meant as motivation for players to pick up/return flags but I soon realized they indeed could incite abusive play also, that's why I reduced the number of points. This isn't perfect but a lot of people want better scoring of the flag carrier to indicate skill level, so it's better then giving a wad of points to the lucky guy who manages to finally complete a capture after 3 carriers died doing all the hard work.

Or we measure the distance you travelled carrying the flag towards your own flag/base, and a bonus when you capture. That motivates people to move (and in a direction, so not just wandering around), the only problem is that it's a bit more complex than counting frags and a bonus when capping (that's what the system basically is now).

Sounds like American football with flags instead of a ball and some additional tools to penetrate all the body armor.