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Author Topic: Map Concepts + Designs  (Read 17016 times)
Remzi
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« on: May 06, 2011, 07:00:15 PM »

We need more maps that have a competitive nature.

Maps such as Q3DM6, Q3DM13 and Battleforged (map_phantq3dm1_rev) would attract more of the competitive crowd of Quake. Why not put some effort to make accurate versions of the maps that're featured at QuakeCon and other competitive venues, instead of stupid versions of Q3DM6 (q3dm6ish is terrible) + others.

Either way, I'd be glad to work with mappers to assist them in making a competitive set of maps accustomed for small-FFA games + 1v1's. By assist, I'll give advice and help with weapon placement, along with a few other things. I will not actually do any of the map design though.
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WingedPanther
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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2011, 07:34:12 PM »

Are you complaining about just the maps that come with OA by default, or the entire range of maps that are available?  There are many, many maps that work with OA.
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2011, 01:49:52 AM »

No offense, but why would competitive players want to leave their competition just to play the same old maps in another, less competitive game? I do agree that OpenArena could use more good 2v2 and 1v1 maps, but I strongly disagree with spending lots of time and energy on recreating maps that have been around for 12 years or longer.

I'm a retired competitive player and for me personally, after having played them for over a decade, I'm sick and tired of q3dm6, q3dm13 and the likes, more so for even older QuakeWorld maps like areowalk and ztn3tourney1. Yes, they're all great maps, but even great maps get boring, especially if you're almost forced to keep on playing them because they get ported to whatever new shooter you play and become popular in that game once again (help help, I'm being haunted by aerowalk Wink ).
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Bane
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2011, 05:32:15 AM »

I don’t think many  Quake 3 player would leave Quake 3 for Open Arena because they are so use to playing Quake 3 why change. However you do demonstrate a need for competitive maps, but I think it would be better if they where original Open Arena works and not just a cut and paste of Quake 3 maps. What I would suggest you do is perhaps makes suggestions as to what you would like to see in maps or make a map yourself and have a friend or some fellow players critique it.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2011, 05:37:29 AM »

Two things:

1) Remakes (at least of official maps) are going to be removed in future releases, so I wouldn't bother to recreate those maps.

2) This is an attempt of mine to create a competitive map. It's already in 0.8.5, if you're interested.
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Remzi
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2011, 04:22:57 PM »

We still need something similar to Q3DM13.

Pretty sure any Q3 player would leave Q3 for OA if it were to have competitive value and similar maps. After all, OA is open-source, so it's completely free for anybody.

OA should have originality, but it should also be inspired by Q3A as well.

The maps that supposedly work with OA aren't fantastically compatible, at least most of them.

Battleforged isn't an official map.

Neon, the map isn't suited for competitive play.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 04:26:33 PM »

Care to explain why?
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Remzi
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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2011, 08:51:07 PM »

Care to explain why?
Bad linking between the atriums, too many atriums, bad health and weapon placement, etc. In general it's not very fluid and bad locations don't have key items to balance it out.
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2011, 01:39:44 AM »

We still need something similar to Q3DM13.

We need good maps, but we don't need to recreate Q3 to please the Q3 players.

Quote
Pretty sure any Q3 player would leave Q3 for OA if it were to have competitive value and similar maps. After all, OA is open-source, so it's completely free for anybody.

And I'm pretty sure all those players have left for Quake Live already. Most players don't care about open source but about free as in free beer, and the OA project leaders aren't even trying to attract a competitive scene (they're artists who don't like their work being undone by 'pro players' advising everyone to play picmip 6 and vertex lighting).

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Neon, the map isn't suited for competitive play.

What do you think about aggressor then?
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Bane
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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2011, 11:20:50 AM »

  The one thing that worries me about Aggressor is it being “over played” like DM 13 in quake 3 and quake live. I think the key to getting good competitive maps is to take a look of some of the maps that a large number of people find competitive and then ask them what about these maps makes them good competitive maps, is it there flow, items placement, all of the above or something more. These maps probably share some similar aspects that a large amount of people like and if a map maker can dupilcate the same aspects in other maps without them becoming tired and old then they could make some new maps for OA. Also maybe someone should perhaps write a guide of what makes a map just some thought I had figured I throw them out there.
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pulchr
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2011, 11:43:24 AM »

Also maybe someone should perhaps write a guide of what makes a map just some thought I had figured I throw them out there.

maybe something like this?
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sago007
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2011, 12:22:52 PM »

As it was pointed out somewhere one should not think about competitive and non-competitive maps but just good maps and not-so-good ones. The most important thing for a competitive map is that it should be well known and played for a long time. For a map to stay played for a long time it must be fun and it must not depend on a gimmick of some sort because they are only fun in the beginning.

As a side note I believe aggressor has one major problem in 1-on-1 and that is that the three yellow armors are too easy to run often resulting in a 15-0 score between evenly skilled players.

Personally that I miss most are large non-open FFA maps suitable for 10+ players.    In this context pul1ffa looks good.
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pulchr
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2011, 01:20:04 PM »

Personally that I miss most are large non-open FFA maps suitable for 10+ players.    In this context pul1ffa looks good.

i would say that pul1ffa is a very open map - so i don't know about that... but i've played against 15 bots and had a very hectic round Smiley
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Bane
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2011, 04:45:53 PM »

Good find Pulchr seems like a nice guide.

@Sago007
Yup those armors are easy to run and if you are focused on timing you can easily get 200 armor. Maybe getting rid of the three yellows and replacing them with one red would help?
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Remzi
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2011, 06:00:13 PM »

We still need something similar to Q3DM13.

We need good maps, but we don't need to recreate Q3 to please the Q3 players.

Quote
Pretty sure any Q3 player would leave Q3 for OA if it were to have competitive value and similar maps. After all, OA is open-source, so it's completely free for anybody.

And I'm pretty sure all those players have left for Quake Live already. Most players don't care about open source but about free as in free beer, and the OA project leaders aren't even trying to attract a competitive scene (they're artists who don't like their work being undone by 'pro players' advising everyone to play picmip 6 and vertex lighting).

Quote
Neon, the map isn't suited for competitive play.

What do you think about aggressor then?
DM13 is a fantastic map in general.

Quake Live is pay-to-play for most of the features. Having those features on this game would increase support.

Aggressor is nice, although it's a bit too easy to completely lock the enemy down. MH has options to get to rail and LG and get back before the enemy can change positions. You can drop straight down to rockets, and it has good control over the bottom teleporter. Aside from that, it's probably the most competitive default map.
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2011, 02:08:24 AM »

Did you already tried pul1duel ? It is not a stock map in 0.8.5, but it will be in further releases.

Map seems to be very promissing, though i am not a big fan of the textures used (blue, red, yellow, mixture of gothic, industrial, scifi textures).
We are playing the map from time to time in Elimination with 2vs2 or max. 3vs3 and it is a lot of fun.

I am not sure about the item placement, never played it in 1vs1. Maybe the up player is too overpowered with the rocket launcher ammo and lightning gun ammo on the upper floor. 4x 25 health seems to be a bit too less. 2vs2 TDM could be fun as well, but i guess there is maybe too much ammo everywhere. Quad is missing for tdm. Would be interesting to see how a quad on the lowest floor would work out.

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pulchr
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2011, 04:49:11 AM »

Did you already tried pul1duel ? It is not a stock map in 0.8.5, but it will be in further releases.

Map seems to be very promissing, though i am not a big fan of the textures used (blue, red, yellow, mixture of gothic, industrial, scifi textures).
We are playing the map from time to time in Elimination with 2vs2 or max. 3vs3 and it is a lot of fun.

I am not sure about the item placement, never played it in 1vs1. Maybe the up player is too overpowered with the rocket launcher ammo and lightning gun ammo on the upper floor. 4x 25 health seems to be a bit too less. 2vs2 TDM could be fun as well, but i guess there is maybe too much ammo everywhere. Quad is missing for tdm. Would be interesting to see how a quad on the lowest floor would work out.

if you have any ideas on how to balance the map in regards to item placement - then i can do an alternative version you can test on your servers.
health, ammo, weapon redistribution, quad and spawns are quite easy to change. i could take a look on the textures if swapping is enough - but i'm a bit reluctant to rebuild the brushes. please post ideas in the pul1duel thread.

unfortunately that thread derailed into an engine discussion. it would be interesting to hear more thoughts on balance and stuff - it's been kinda quiet since the map was done almost two years ago Tongue
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2011, 10:51:55 AM »

DM13 is a fantastic map in general.

It sure is a lot less boring than dm6 or ztn Wink

Quote
Aggressor is nice, although it's a bit too easy to completely lock the enemy down. MH has options to get to rail and LG and get back before the enemy can change positions. You can drop straight down to rockets, and it has good control over the bottom teleporter. Aside from that, it's probably the most competitive default map.

Yeah, camping on the LG ledge is powerful on aggressor (camping the MH directly will get you shotgunned or shafted from below), but even if you're on the LG ledge you need at least a jump to the stairs followed by stairclimbing jumps and another jump to the MH, or you can take the alternative quick and dirty route and do a rocketjump to the MH, so both options give your opponent ample time to change positions (or even to do a rocketjump to the MH himself if you go for the jump to the stairs). It's very hard to deny all 3 major weapons to your opponent if he knows what he's doing (with RG being hardest and RL easiest to control), so I'd say the map is pretty much balanced.

Edit: camping the MH is difficult.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 11:15:52 AM by 7 » Logged

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Remzi
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« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2011, 04:24:43 PM »

Quote
Aggressor is nice, although it's a bit too easy to completely lock the enemy down. MH has options to get to rail and LG and get back before the enemy can change positions. You can drop straight down to rockets, and it has good control over the bottom teleporter. Aside from that, it's probably the most competitive default map.

Yeah, camping on the LG ledge is powerful on aggressor (camping the MH directly will get you shotgunned or shafted from below), but even if you're on the LG ledge you need at least a jump to the stairs followed by stairclimbing jumps and another jump to the MH, or you can take the alternative quick and dirty route and do a rocketjump to the MH, so both options give your opponent ample time to change positions (or even to do a rocketjump to the MH himself if you go for the jump to the stairs). It's very hard to deny all 3 major weapons to your opponent if he knows what he's doing (with RG being hardest and RL easiest to control), so I'd say the map is pretty much balanced.

Edit: camping the MH is difficult.
Well, not directly on the MH, but on the stairs. Stairs have access to pretty much everything aside from SG / GL.
Either way, it's not that hard to deny all weapons at once.

Also, I'll check out pul1duel, see if it's good.
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