Poll
Question: Common map naming for OACMP (map dm1/ctf1 as example) [ends 20/12]
oacmpdm01/oacmpctf01 - 2 (28.6%)
oacmpdm001/oacmpctf001 - 0 (0%)
oacmpdm1/oacmpctf1 - 4 (57.1%)
oacmp1dm01/oacmp1ctf01 - 0 (0%)
oacmp01dm01/oacmp01ctf01 - 0 (0%)
Other option (elaborate or your vote won't count) - 1 (14.3%)
Total Voters: 7

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Author Topic: [REL] OpenArena Community Mappack - Volume 1 - FINAL  (Read 463269 times)
Akom74
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« Reply #550 on: March 22, 2013, 11:01:45 am »

Except those few that I created, all other textures were stock Q3 textures in the editor, that are automatically replaced with OA textures while loading the map.... of course the replacements are not totally equal to the original ones, so the result changes from what I see while mapping. I always thought about re-texturing the map, after it's fully functional. For this reason I ask what should I know/do to continue the map switching from Q3Radiant to a OA-aware GTKRadiant... if some kind of conversion or workaround is required, etc.
Quote
Of course I can add one more rocket launcher if you wish (where would you like it?). However, the main purposes of this map are Elimination and LMS modes...

If you map is intended for those gametypes it's ok Tongue

Install GTKRadiant and configure it for OA to avoid textures/model issues.

Quote
By the way, me too don't like those external walls... You know I'm searching for ways to get rid of them... I was thinking that one option could be to do those walls very short, and place the sky shader also on the upper part of the map side, but unfortunately the sky shows strange (and ugly!) artefacts if you see it from up to down (example: spectate in SPCTFMAP9 in FlagRaiders mod)... I don't know how to avoid this...

I know this... but with the skybox you can do what you want, take one of mine from the OACMP.


Quote
PS: About your map, in the changelog I read you added proximity mines, but I don't read anything about invulnerability. When I proposed the idea of proximity mines, it was just to integrate the idea of adding invulnerability (because they are the only weapon that can kill the Invulnerability user).   Roll Eyes Of course you are not forced to use all of my ideas... they are just proposals, then choose yourself what better fits your own ideas for the map.  Wink This one of the Invulnerability+mines was simply a thought, considering the overload mode.

I placed the proximity to defend the flag with mines  Tongue Grin

Quote
PPS: just a curiosity: why did you place the red armor "in three gametypes only"? Wasn't it planned to be used in all gametypes except the three that already have a gametype-specific thing there (e.g. by using the !gametype key)?

In the Domination game it averride the flag, and also the white flag in ONe Flag CTF.

Quote
PPPS: Are you sure that with the new spawn points for DD, now it's not too quick to grab the BFG, jump down and conquire the A or B point? Well, if the BFG/mines respawn times are long enough, this should not be a major problem, I suppose. But with the rail? Just thoughts....

It's valid for both teams i think.


@GIG: add invisible wall maybe not the best way...... try first with one skybox, using the image i've posted in the other post above.

 Wink
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Moixie
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« Reply #551 on: March 22, 2013, 11:34:38 am »

@Gig

I tested your map and I loved it ! It changes much of other maps where you have to follow a strict way, on it you are free to play like you want and it's pretty innteresting in "last man standing" or in "elimination". (a "ctf_elimination" version would certainly rock ! It would become more than a simple slaughter, and with all ways that you can take on the map, pursuits can become amazing)

However, I didn't really noticed that it was an archeological site. I thought it was a city which was destroyed by bombs. So, totally off topic, here is what I would do if I were you, and if you tried to make a destroyed city:
-> adding some decorative things: debris, collapsed building, wood boxes, metal barrels, fire, ...
-> densifying the city, more buildings, less empty areas. To me, it would be even better if it looked like a real maze, with thousand ways behind every door, if you see what I mean.
-> adding underground tunnels (metro? sewers?).
-> adding bombs (shooter_grenade), coming from the air to the ground.
-> adding big buildings around the city to change the box's feeling
-> making it less "squary".
But it's a archeological site, so it's completely off topic and useless.

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Gig
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« Reply #552 on: March 22, 2013, 12:16:54 pm »

Thank you Moixie. Smiley

Some history:
When I started the Map, I had in mind to do a Clan Arena map, but I didn't have a precise theme in mind. I liked something with a gameplay vaguely similar to OSPCA1, but it's years I don't see that map (however I never intended to do an ospca1 tribute map).
I initially did the prison, and then the warehouse. After leaving it without roof to allow shooting and jumping in and out, I thought that an archaeological area would have fit with missing ceilings, so I added a ruined temple, and ancient towers... it seems something went wrong with the theme... if noone sees it as ancient.
Anyway, I think it's not a major problem if anyone considers the place what he prefers (ruins, construction, war area)... or is it?

I also thought about underground passages, but then I did not do them thinking that one should not hide too much in Elimination... was I wrong?

About adding much more things: the openess of this map causes vis portals almost useless... I tried to keep the total number of polygons low trying to preserve framerate... However I may put in a few more things, if necessary...
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 05:20:05 am by Gig » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #553 on: March 22, 2013, 05:28:57 pm »

I had a lot of complications today, so I've decided to post the pack tomorrow, 8:00 AM (GMT -3).
Good thing, though, because jangroothuijse sent me another alpha of oajgdm3. This way, both Gig and jan's maps will appear in beta 2.
I'm also uploading Gig's map to the FTP.

The really sad thing is that, for this volume at least, I won't be able to submit anything. Sad
My way to do maps works with small maps. But the CTF map I was working on is pretty big, and I won't be able to get it in time for the pack. And I don't want the pack to be delayed anymore.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 05:32:02 pm by Neon_Knight » Logged


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« Reply #554 on: March 23, 2013, 05:01:48 am »

And I don't want the pack to be delayed anymore.
Excuse me, my friend. I don't get why you think releasing the pack in specified timing is so strictly necessary.  As you can read in previous posts, more or less all other guys here think that polishing the maps in the pack is more important than a release date.
We all have real lifes, too... and we cannot work on maps h24. I think that even if the mappack would be released in May or June, there would be no problem at all.
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jangroothuijse
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« Reply #555 on: March 23, 2013, 05:57:43 am »

I agree with Gig, better have a higher quality pack, then meet a self-set (and thus relatively arbitrary) deadline.

Having a deadline may have helped people to move this project up towards the top of their todo list, but now that we have started and are active, it is no longer needed to enforce it this strict, we should just worry more about the quality now.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 06:30:45 am by jangroothuijse » Logged
Dancar
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« Reply #556 on: March 23, 2013, 08:52:11 am »

@Akom74

About the facing buildings map: now all is better but I miss the grass texture.


@Gig

What do you think to change it in a sort of void map with some fractures in the ground, like the map is tearing apart in an another dimension?

You should add also floating bricks or debris...
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 11:35:25 am by Dancar » Logged
Neon_Knight
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« Reply #557 on: March 23, 2013, 09:41:50 am »

Dancar, post your thoughts about Akom's Deck remake in the topic he linked: http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4582.0. This is the topic for the mappack.

Here's second beta: http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/!oacmp/z_oacmp_beta2.pk3
13 maps, 48MB. From now on, polish.

@Gig and jan: You're both right, but the deadlines are because I don't want the pack to be released five years after it began.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 08:00:39 pm by Neon_Knight » Logged


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Akom74
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« Reply #558 on: March 23, 2013, 10:04:34 am »

@Gig and jan: You're both right, but the deadlines are because I don't want the pack to be released five years after it began.

I agree.

By the way, i can't wait to see your map  Grin Grin

 Wink
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #559 on: March 24, 2013, 08:01:47 pm »

Oh, yeah, I've forgot to modify the thread's title.
Beta 2 available for testing. From now on, polishing of the existing maps. The launch amount will be of 13 maps. Many other maps will be left for Volume 2, in case Vol 1 is successfull.
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« Reply #560 on: March 25, 2013, 02:44:23 am »

@GIG: add invisible wall maybe not the best way...... try first with one skybox, using the image i've posted in the other post above.
Which image? The one you attached here? Is it GPLv2?

I thought it was a city which was destroyed by bombs. So, totally off topic, here is what I would do if I were you, and if you tried to make a destroyed city:
-> adding bombs (shooter_grenade), coming from the air to the ground.
I fear that may steer from skill to luck. However it may be interesting for some other map... maybe it could be used for some map in a second OACMP volume?

What do you think to change it in a sort of void map with some fractures in the ground, like the map is tearing apart in an another dimension?

You should add also floating bricks or debris...
Interesting, but anyway for this map I wish to make it no possible to die falling in the void, so I would need to keep the "player clip" anyway...
By the way, I want to try to keep the total number of brushes limited enough due to preserve framerate... so I have to somehow limit "decorations"...   Embarrassed
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 07:30:51 am by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #561 on: March 25, 2013, 04:05:30 am »

Very first tests with OACMP beta 2...

- OA_AKOMDM4:
-- while in the lateral borders of the map, shots disappear in the outer space, in the front and back "walls" (that should be outer space, too) shots explode and leave marks.
-- the same bots are used two times.

- OA_AKOMDM3: the .arena does not list it for Elimination mode yet. This is a crime against humanity.  Smiley

- Other maps from Akom: you may consider adding DD and Dom suppport to them.

- OAJGDM2BETA: there is still the problem that the teleporters don't look like teleporters...

- OAJGCTF1ALPHA:
-- playing in CTF mode (with default bots), at first spawn I appeared in the enemy base, and I telefragged someone doing that! Did you set only few spawn points with the "initial" flag maybe?
-- the map is listed for Elimination mode, but I tried it in that mode and bots tend to do not roam along the map, but tend to stay in the part you can see in the first screenshot attached, just out of the tunnel in their base. I don't know if they have similar issues also playing in other modes. Did you try placing some item_botroams entities (don't forget the "weight" key there)?
-- the map lacks location names.
-- It seems the only way to get to the passage shown in the second screenshot attached is to rocket jump there (or to access if from the other side). Are you sure you want to keep it this way?

- OAJGDM3ALPHA2: found a graphic glitch (see through wall), see the third screenshot. Note: I don't know why the screenshot looks so bright, it depends from my machine I think.

- VARIOUS MAPS: the default bots selection in .arena for various maps in the pack is quite repetitive. There are various maps (from different authors) in the package that use just Grunt, Major and Sarge. A little more variety would be welcome...  Smiley
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 09:22:37 am by Gig » Logged

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sago007
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« Reply #562 on: March 25, 2013, 05:12:59 am »

I player some of the maps: akomdm3, akomdm4, jgdm3alpha2, jgctf1alpha and akomctf1. I was well entertained so that is a good thing. I was positively surprised by akomctf1 because I had my doubts it would work well with quake-physics but it works just right.

- OAJGCTF1ALPHA:
-- playing in CTF mode (with default bots), at first spawn I appeared in the enemy base, and I telefragged someone doing that! Did you set only few spawn points with the "initial" flag maybe?
I have never used the initial flag. I am not even sure about what it does?
The problem is that the map has no "team_CTF_blueplayer" or "team_CTF_redplayer" spawnpoints (there should 16 of each. They are used only at the beginning of the match). For some reason Q3 falls back to "info_player_start" and the map only has 2 of those. To be playable in DD, there should be some "info_player_dd" in the middle otherwise this game too falls back to "info_player_start".

The map layout is very good and I believe it will work well.
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Gig
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« Reply #563 on: March 25, 2013, 06:11:35 am »

I don't know in which cases the game selects between info_player_deathmatch and info_player_start. In my map, I used info_player_deathmatch only and no info_player_start.

I think that the "initial" flag means that spawn point will be used for the player's very first spawn in the game, while the other spawn points in that map will be used only for the later re-spawns. So, I suppose it is something useless for 99% of maps, while it may be useful for a "tutorial" map where you have some explainations at the beginning, and then enter a deathmatch: you see the explaination part only the first time. I can guess id software used it for Q3DM0.

Here someone (I suppose Neon_Knight) wrote that "Id recommends to use [info_player_deathmatch] with the INITIAL spawnflag set"... so I assume in a normal map one should either set the initial flag for ALL spawn points, or for NONE.... this way one gets the same result (randomly spawning everytime) -trying to follow that page advice, I set it on all the spawn points-. If some have the flag and others not, some spawn points will be used only once, and other will be used only starting from the second spawning.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 07:33:56 am by Gig » Logged

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Gig
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« Reply #564 on: March 25, 2013, 07:12:44 am »

About UDESTRUCTION.

I've done another try to limit the "box" effect.
This time, I tried to make the external perimeter multi-level, placing a few small buildings there. This new part is not reachable by players.

Apart the fact that I should use a different texture for the surrounding "mountains" because the current one looks bad (too bright) when illuminated by this sky (on one machine.. on another computer it's not so bright), I don't like the result too much anyway.

You can try this version 03, it's attached.

By the way, I noticed another problem... Do you remember that I said I made the aqueduct less "deep" to allow bots to more easily jump out of it? As you can see from the second screenshot, I can see that instead now they are no more able to get out of it at all! Why? Huh
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 12:12:46 pm by Gig » Logged

I never want to be aggressive, offensive or ironic with my posts. If you find something offending in my posts, read them again searching for a different mood there. If you still see something bad with them, please ask me infos. I can be wrong at times, but I never want to upset anyone.
Neon_Knight
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« Reply #565 on: March 25, 2013, 07:28:17 am »

Tried putting a common/botclip "stair"?
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Akom74
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« Reply #566 on: March 25, 2013, 10:46:46 am »

- OA_AKOMDM4:
-- while in the lateral borders of the map, shots disappear in the outer space, in the front and back "walls" (that should be outer space, too) shots explode and leave marks.
-- the same bots are used two times.
- OA_AKOMDM3: the .arena does not list it for Elimination mode yet. This is a crime against humanity.  Smiley

For oa_akomdm4 sky, you are right, it's a bug, i have to fix it Tongue
For bots selection it's not a big problem, when you launch the map you can change it, by the way i've modified the .arena file.

Quote from: Gig
- Other maps from Akom: you may consider adding DD and Dom suppport to them.

I've modified the .arena file with various bots and adding Elimination mode.

Quote from: Gig
- VARIOUS MAPS: the default bots selection in .arena for various maps in the pack is quite repetitive. There are various maps (from different authors) in the package that use just Grunt, Major and Sarge. A little more variety would be welcome...  Smiley

It's Neon_knight fault, write to him  Grin Grin  Tongue Tongue

 Wink



@Gig: Always insert an info_player_start and a couple (minimum) of info_player_deathmatch to avoid the personal space telefrag.
Also in CTF mode, you have to insert more info:

8 - team_CTF_redplayer
8 - team_CTF_redspawn
8 - info_player_deathmatch


8 - team_CTF_blueplayer
8 - team_CTF_bluespawn
8 - info_player_deathmatch


@Gig(2): Watch at the step in the aqueduct, bots don't jump always you have to set the grid to 4 and make the floor/plane about maximum 2 step. Make some test in a blank boxed map and watch where bots play as well and where bots don't care about it.... Tongue....



Quote from: Gig
Which image? The one you attached here? Is it GPLv2?

No no, i mean that you have to be inspired by this picture to avoid the box effect. Grin

 Cheesy
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 11:04:15 am by Akom74 » Logged

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Gig
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« Reply #567 on: March 25, 2013, 11:33:43 am »

@Gig: Always insert an info_player_start and a couple (minimum) of info_player_deathmatch to avoid the personal space telefrag.
What's the difference between info_player_start and info_player_deathmatch? My map has got something like 22 info_player_deathmatch and 0 info_player_start.

Quote from: Akom74
Also in CTF mode, you have to insert more info:

8 - team_CTF_redplayer
8 - team_CTF_redspawn
8 - info_player_deathmatch


8 - team_CTF_blueplayer
8 - team_CTF_bluespawn
8 - info_player_deathmatch

Well, my map isn't a CTF map... but what's the difference between team_CTF_redplayer and team_CTF_redspawn?

Quote from: Akom
@Gig(2): Watch at the step in the aqueduct, bots don't jump always you have to set the grid to 4 and make the floor/plane about maximum 2 step. Make some test in a blank boxed map and watch where bots play as well and where bots don't care about it.... Tongue....
Excuse me, could you please reword? Form your words, it seems that bots do not go over 8 units, while the Q3Rad_Manual.doc (under "Tools" folder)... in the "Useful Map Information"/"Game physics" states that:
Quote from: Q3Radiant Manual
Step Heights
For scale purposes, “normal” steps should be no higher than 8 units. However, the maximum value that a player may step up is 18 units (just keep steps 16 units or lower).

Normal Jumps
The maximum height for barriers the bots will jump on is 32 units.

Water Jump Heights (or “Everyone, out of the pool!”)
The maximum distance that a bot may jump to exit water is 18 units. This is the height difference between the water surface and the adjacent floor that the bot is jumping onto. If the water jump height is made higher, human players will have a hard time getting out of the water.
I can guess the "water jump heights" section refers to when the water is deep enough to swim, not when it's just a few centimeters.

In version1 of the map, the aqueduct was 32 units "deep" (8 units of water + 24 units of air), and bots were able to jump out of it, although not always at the first try.
In version2 and version3, the aqueduct is 24 units "deep" (8 units of water + 16 units of air), and bots seem to do not be able to jump out of it.
In version1, the "ceiling" brush of the aqueduct is 16 units thick, while in version2 and 3, it's 8 units... I don't know if this could mean something.

The suggestion from Neon_Knight (botclip hidden step) could be an idea, but I don't understand why the problem happens (and it would be not so fair to have real people having to jump and bots simply walking to get out of there). I'd prefer something else, before choosing that option.

Quote from: Akom
No no, i mean that you have to be inspired by this picture to avoid the box effect. Grin
It's more or less what I tried with version3, but my result does not satisty me too much... What do you think about that, guys?

------------------------------------
Back to testing other maps, I have found a small texture problem in OAJGCTF1ALPHA (see attached screenshot -missing common/caulk on the brushes under the bevels, maybe?-), and I see that, adding some more bots (tried with 8 total players), initial telefrag occurs in FFA mode in OAJGDM1BETA3.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 11:02:15 am by Gig » Logged

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Akom74
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« Reply #568 on: March 25, 2013, 11:59:36 am »

What's the difference between info_player_start and info_player_deathmatch? My map has got something like 22 info_player_deathmatch and 0 info_player_start.

The info_player_start (human) make the player start in it at the start of the game (once time only), otherwise it will start in the info_player_deathmatch.

Quote from: GiG
Well, my map isn't a CTF map... but what's the difference between team_CTF_redplayer and team_CTF_redspawn?

The team_CTF_red/blueplayer is the starting point at the start of the game.
The team_CTF_red/bluespawn it the starting point when the player dies or the game restart.

Quote from: GiG
Excuse me, could you please reword? Form your words, it seems that bots do not go over 8 units, while the Q3Rad_Manual.doc (under "Tools" folder)... in the "Useful Map Information"/"Game physics" states that:
Quote from: Q3Radiant Manual
Step Heights
For scale purposes, “normal” steps should be no higher than 8 units. However, the maximum value that a player may step up is 18 units (just keep steps 16 units or lower).

Normal Jumps
The maximum height for barriers the bots will jump on is 32 units.

Water Jump Heights (or “Everyone, out of the pool!”)
The maximum distance that a bot may jump to exit water is 18 units. This is the height difference between the water surface and the adjacent floor that the bot is jumping onto. If the water jump height is made higher, human players will have a hard time getting out of the water.
I can guess the "water jump heights" section refers to when the water is deep enough to swim, not when it's just a few centimeters.

In version1 of the map, the aqueduct was 32 units "deep" (8 units of water + 24 units of air), and bots were able to jump out of it, although not always at the first try.
In version2 and version3, the aqueduct is 24 units "deep" (8 units of water + 16 units of air), and bots seem to do not be able to jump out of it.
In version1, the "ceiling" brush of the aqueduct is 16 units thick, while in version2 and 3, it's 8 units... I don't know if this could mean something.

The suggestion from Neon_Knight (botclip hidden step) could be an idea, but I don't understand why the problem happens (and it would be not so fair to have real people having to jump and bots simply walking to get out of there). I'd prefer something else, before choosing that option.

I dont know what to tell you, make some tests, the waterpool and the exit from the water always give some problem, in one case i have a step of 8 units and all work well, also the bots. In another map i have the same step and i have problem to escape from the waterpool but the bots escape easily....  Huh Tongue

 Wink
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« Reply #569 on: March 26, 2013, 08:27:59 am »

@Moixie: For some reason, when playing in CTF Elimination mode in map MX1CTF8_1, just after loading the map, for a few moments, you see it from the external void.

I have no idea which point of view Elimination and CTF Elimination modes use just after map loading (Sago, any hints?). I think it's not the info_player_intermission....  Huh

-------------------------------
About UDESTRUCTION.

I've done another try to avoid the "box" effect. This time, I tried to follow the spite of some Jan's maps: using bevels for walls! This causes more triangles shown than I previously thought, but it seems it can work anyway.
I placed common/caulk on the internal side of the "real" map border brushes (that are placed outside from the bevels), so I avoided the "blinking" effect where bevels touch. However, there is still the problem of the textures on different bevels to do not correspond perfectly in the place where they touch... any ideas?

By the way, here I restored the previous aqueduct depth, where bots work.

Let's sum up the various versions up to this moment:
- Version01: plain vertical walls.
- Version02: sloping walls.
- Version03: External part, protected by player clip, with few buildings...
- Version04 (attached here): vertical walls, but made of curved surfaces.

What do you like, guys?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 10:51:13 am by Gig » Logged

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sago007
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« Reply #570 on: March 26, 2013, 11:49:31 am »

I have no idea which point of view Elimination and CTF Elimination modes use just after map loading (Sago, any hints?). I think it's not the info_player_intermission....  Huh
I am afraid that is a bug in Elimination. I do know about it but have not yet found a not-ugly solution to the problem that did not create even bigger problems. The start location is in (0,0,0) and if that is inside a wall then you start inside a wall until you spawn. This happens because the spawn routine is disabled until the warm-up time begins and therefore no spawn point is selected.
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Akom74
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« Reply #571 on: March 26, 2013, 02:40:29 pm »

Hi everybody.

I've just started the second CTF map for this mappack.

I've not titled it yet, maybe during the creation i think at something.... Tongue

Wink
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 02:29:12 pm by Akom74 » Logged

...sorry for my English, i'm Italian... Tongue



fromhell
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« Reply #572 on: March 26, 2013, 02:44:16 pm »

What's with the tinted screenshot?

p.s. I LIKE CASTLES
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
Progress of OA3 currently occurs behind closed doors alone

I do not provide technical support either.

new code development on github
Akom74
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« Reply #573 on: March 26, 2013, 02:49:06 pm »

What's with the tinted screenshot?

p.s. I LIKE CASTLES

The screenshot was too dark, i've edited it. Next time i hope to give you (all) a better lighted version, and of course one base complete to test....... but time is our big enemy...
Ehm, it's not exactly like a Castle, but something similar Tongue ...i think.... Grin

Wink
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #574 on: March 26, 2013, 02:51:36 pm »

Akom, we're on the polishing phase, we already have enough maps for the first volume.
Once Volume 1 is released, we may focus on creating more maps for Volume 2.
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"Level Designers are 1 part architect, 1 part artist, 1 part game designer, and 1 part beta tester!" Cliff Bleszinski
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