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Author Topic: Where to start?  (Read 11122 times)
CGB01
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« on: April 21, 2013, 07:33:20 am »

Ok, so I've sketched the map I want to build, made notes on item placement, carefully planned a few traps which you can't get out of and created a soft of puzzle using triggers (thanks for pointing me in the right direction Akom).

The game is both outside and inside, meaning there's a 15th century castle protected by a moat which you have to make your way to it (triggering a series 'touch point' in order to get there).  It starts off by placing you outside on a beach by the ocean (world limit).  You see a river pouring into the ocean and the castle in the far distance.

For those interested, the world is modeled from a story called "True Names" by Vinor Vinge (Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Names) and story in PDF (http://ny.iadicicco.com/Finished/20,000%20Ebooks/Vernor%20Vinge/Vernor%20Vinge%20-%20True%20Names.pdf).  It's a short story, 76 pages, and one that a bunch of hackers and I would read over and over in high school (and yes, we did have punch cards back then Wink ).  We 'lived' in a community we created online on an HP-2000 computer shared amosts schools at 300 baud.

Anyways I digress...  I've been looking around the forum and the Open Arena Wiki to try and figure out what would be the best approach when starting a project.  Unfortunately, many links in "Mapping Resouces and Tutorials" are broken.

Right now what I'm trying to figure out is the best/good approach in making a terrain with a river running thru it.  I've yet to find any map that has that feature in it, or let alone a large outdoors terrain to use as an example.

What I've read so far would make me believe this is best accomplished using a patch work of triangles to create depth of the flat world.  The portion of the world where the river will run thru is something like 4096x4096.  That a HELL of a lot of triangles!

There's a program called EasyGen which can be used to create the terrain using triangles and doesn't seem that bad.  It just seems like alot of triangles to create the terrain.

Is there a better way or is this the best?

Thanks,
-Claude.

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2013, 08:30:06 am »

Perhaps using just plain ol' brushes? Here's a good pair of tutorials in that regard.

http://www.simonoc.com/pages/articles.htm
http://www.leveldk.co.uk/tut6.htm
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Gig
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2013, 10:56:07 am »

About broken links in the mapping tutorials page on the Wiki, I suppose someone of us should spend some time searching for alternate locations of those documents, or search if they are still available on the often useful Internet Archive Wayback Machine (http://www.archive.org/... copy-pasting a broken link into their box often gives a good result -well, not always-), and then update the links.
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2013, 08:40:30 pm »

One old tool is Nem's Terrain Generator.
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CGB01
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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 12:37:55 pm »

Too bad it's so old...  I can't get it to load any textures and the export to a .map produces something Radiant can't load.

Sad

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Akom74
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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2013, 01:44:27 pm »

Too bad it's so old...  I can't get it to load any textures and the export to a .map produces something Radiant can't load.

Sad


I disagree, it work for Q3Radiant202 (i used it to load a terrain) You only have to reduce size of the terrain you created. Of course you have to change the options in terrain generator to export your job to .map filetype.

My suggestion is however to follow the soc's tutorial for generate your own terrain with triangles:
http://www.simonoc.com/pages/articles/terrain1_3.htm

Wink
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CGB01
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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2013, 04:18:59 pm »

Akom, the more I read and learn, the more I'm incline to think the same way.  Create it myself using the technique described by soc's article.

This is going to turn into a "long" project I think...  Undecided

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Akom74
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2013, 08:51:00 am »

Akom, the more I read and learn, the more I'm incline to think the same way.  Create it myself using the technique described by soc's article.

This is going to turn into a "long" project I think...  Undecided

I know  Tongue Grin

By the way, triangles are not the only way......... Wink
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CGB01
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2013, 04:39:48 pm »

I know  Tongue Grin

By the way, triangles are not the only way......... Wink

Please do tell!  After spending two whole days, I'm starting to understand why there's no maps with winding rivers in them!  It's a god damn nightmare to try to do!!!

So I thought I'd try using a patch mesh to do this and once my layout is complete, take the edges and move them up.  Then simply add a large brush on top of it and do a CSG Substract to remove what's touching and voila.  But noooo...  CSG substract does't work with patches and meshes.   Angry

I've looked for examples of a terrain with a river in it and can't find anything.  Sad

I'd much appreciate some help here from the mappers.  Please...  (insert on my knees and praying icon here).

Thanks,
-Claude.
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Akom74
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« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2013, 03:55:14 am »

I want to help you, but can you give me some image to follow ?

Wink
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CGB01
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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2013, 04:53:14 am »

Thanks Akom,

Here's a small picture of that I'm thinking.  It's a top view with an attempt at doing a 3D view in the upper left of the page.  My scanner cut off a portion on the left which is just a lake.

Let me know if you need me to clarity something.

Thanks for your help Smiley

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Akom74
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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2013, 06:28:46 am »

Hello.

In the attachment you can find a first-look (creepy Tongue ) version.
The map is tiny, i know, but it's only to show the water fall and the river moving.
I've used some triangles to make all the map, but not the skybox  Grin.

I'm sorry, but i'm working on it !

I have to fix something about the trasparency and the light of the water  Roll Eyes Grin

The bigger (and more complete) version maybe this evening (italian time).

Wink

« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 06:52:36 am by Akom74 » Logged

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CGB01
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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2013, 08:25:32 am »

Gwad I feel like such a nub!  Sad  Probably took you 5 minutes to do!  LOL!

Ok, take a look at the screen capture below.  The water fall segment has been moved out of the 'world' to show better.

My question is...  HOW did you create the brush?  When selected it looks like multiple block that are all aligned perfectly, but it reality it is only ONE rectangle brush that has been bent (or so I think).  I spent the last hour in 3 different editors (including Q3Rariant) and can't figure out how you do that.  PLEASE, PLEASE do tell. 

PS:  If you did this map in 5 minutes, I can't wait to see what you produce tonight when you have more time! 

Thanks a million!

 Grin
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Akom74
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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2013, 09:01:22 am »

Gwad I feel like such a nub!  Sad  Probably took you 5 minutes to do!  LOL!

Ok, take a look at the screen capture below.  The water fall segment has been moved out of the 'world' to show better.

My question is...  HOW did you create the brush?  When selected it looks like multiple block that are all aligned perfectly, but it reality it is only ONE rectangle brush that has been bent (or so I think).  I spent the last hour in 3 different editors (including Q3Rariant) and can't figure out how you do that.  PLEASE, PLEASE do tell. 

It's simply a square cylinder curved to show as a waterfall.
(see attachment)

Quote
PS:  If you did this map in 5 minutes, I can't wait to see what you produce tonight when you have more time! 

Thanks a million!
 Grin

Unfortunately my time today it was very little, but i try to help you as much as i can.

Wink
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CGB01
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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2013, 10:27:57 am »

Quote
It's simply a square cylinder curved to show as a waterfall.
Got it.  Could not figure out what it would be used for.

I've included a map of what I am trying to do.  Basically it's a series of brushes and each river segment, from one river bank to another, is linked together with a func_group.

I then take each segment, rotate it plus or minus 10 degrees on the the Z plane and raise it by 4 units to give height.  What I can't figure out is how to fill in missing parts.  Each time I try insert a brush to fit that space, it gets deformed and the vertices don't match up any more giving 'cracks' in between each segment.

I've incuded the simple map I've been playing with.

Thanks Akom for your help, I really appreciate it.

Cheers!
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Akom74
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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2013, 10:49:07 am »

Hello, i'm back.

Unfortunately my time is over for today  Tongue

What about insert a giant curved patch mesh ?
I mean curve -> endcap
(see imagine in the attachment)

I've inserted also the last version, more good than before.
There is a couple of bugs in the water  Roll Eyes Embarrassed  Tongue

To test this release you need the mappack where is my map oa_akomdm5, i've used the mappack skybox.

Wink

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GrosBedo
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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2013, 02:16:23 pm »

Just to say that your project sounds very cool. Good luck in making it, I would really enjoy seeing it!
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CGB01
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« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2013, 03:07:31 pm »

What about insert a giant curved patch mesh ?
I mean curve -> endcap
(see imagine in the attachment)
Yes, that could work...  Need to play a little more with that.

Quote
I've inserted also the last version, more good than before.
There is a couple of bugs in the water  Roll Eyes Embarrassed  Tongue
Wow thanks!  It's giving me things to play and test with Wink

Just to say that your project sounds very cool. Good luck in making it, I would really enjoy seeing it!
If I can get efficient with radiant (forget about mastering it  Embarrassed ) I think it will be a cool project.  As with anything new, there's always a steep learning curve and I've yet to hit the plateau.  LOL!

Ok, here's another question about size in the game engine.  If a player is 32x32x56 and I am 24 wide and 67 high, that makes the game players stout dwarfs.  In creating the map I uploaded, I realized that the river was the equivalent of 64 feet wide and 26 feet deep (based on a game player proportions), kind of big so I'm redoing it.  

My question is; How far does a game player jump while running?  How far does he jump using the Rocket Jump technique?  Knowing this would allow me to put some proportions into my game.

Thanks.
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CGB01
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« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2013, 06:19:44 pm »

Hmm, happy and not...

So based on the 32x32x56 game player size, I created a river equivalent to 24 feet wide (288 units) and 12 feet deep (144 units).  I gave it pretty steep inclines near the edge so that if you fall into it, you would not be able to walk, run or jump out.  I then added water to half the river to see how the game engine reacts to the player being in different media (air versus water).

Well as it turns out, not only are you a stout dwarf in the game, you also float like a cork with all that body armor!  LOL!

You can't walk, run or jump out when you're in the air medium, but when you're in the water you can simply walk up the slope without any problems.  It's as if all that body armor and metal shards are acting like life jacket!  Grrr....

I guess I could make the river walls steeper to fix this, but it would remove the 'natural' feel of the river bed and make it more like a canyon.

I've attached what I did.

Cheers!

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Akom74
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« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2013, 10:59:20 pm »

Hi, i've watched it and i have a couple of questions:

1) In the first version, with polygons, i fill like a little and tiny dwarf. In this version i feel like a giant, i'm not sur of really understand your point, but please explain to us Tongue  Cheesy

2) Are you really sure you don't want to use triangles to make this river thing ? And first you ask me, yes it's to modify one by one  Rest In PEACE! Grin

P.S.: The last file (rivertest) gives me an error when i try to open it with Q3Radiant. However, no problem with NETradiant, don't know why....  Huh

Wink
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Gig
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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2013, 04:09:25 am »

About player size and game physics (e.g. "the maximum height for barriers the bots will jump on is 32 units"), I think you should take a look to the "Useful map information" section of the Q3Radiant manual (direct link).

About players' jumps, there is also to mention that they may vary depending from framerate: you may take a look to http://openarena.wikia.com/wiki/Game_physics.
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CGB01
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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2013, 06:14:17 am »

Hi, i've watched it and i have a couple of questions:

1) In the first version, with polygons, i fill like a little and tiny dwarf. In this version i feel like a giant, i'm not sur of really understand your point, but please explain to us Tongue  Cheesy
In the first version using polygons (or brushes) the width and hight was much bigger.  The river was 576 units wide, the new one done as a patch frame is only 288 units wide.

This was based on the fact that a player is 32 units wide (although some documentation says that a player is 30 units wide).  Making something that's 288 units wide would be like something in real life that's 24 feet wide, sightly narrower than the average two lane street in my subdivision (26 feet).  So it made sense for me.


Quote
2) Are you really sure you don't want to use triangles to make this river thing ? And first you ask me, yes it's to modify one by one  Rest In PEACE! Grin
The problem I'm having with the triangle approach is that to make any kind of curve and then fill in the gaps is a pain in the butt!  I can't seem to be able to do it properly.  The vertives and angles never match up and I end up with spaces between them.   Huh  Cry

Quote
P.S.: The last file (rivertest) gives me an error when i try to open it with Q3Radiant. However, no problem with NETradiant, don't know why....  Huh
I've tried loading that file into my Q3Radiant, GtkRadiant 1.5.0 and GtkRadiant 1.6.3 and I also get errors.  It only loads in NetRadiant.  I don't know why.   Huh Huh Huh

About player size and game physics (e.g. "the maximum height for barriers the bots will jump on is 32 units"), I think you should take a look to the "Useful map information" section of the Q3Radiant manual (direct link).

About players' jumps, there is also to mention that they may vary depending from framerate: you may take a look to http://openarena.wikia.com/wiki/Game_physics.

Thanks Gig!  Very useful information.  What is interesting from the link is that they say; "In the game world, eight units roughly equal one foot (30.5 cm). From this, we deduce that the characters are a heroic 7 feet tall (2.13 meters).".  This just doesn't seem right.  It would also mean that the player is 3.75 feet wide (30/8)!  Just doesn't make sense to me. Sad

Cheers!
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andrewj
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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2013, 06:32:06 pm »

The bounding box of players is 32x32x56, and that 32 will be a lot wider than the torso of most player models, since the bounding box needs to contain the arms and legs too, and it also allows for fat player models (whereas Grism and Major are quite skinny, for example).

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Gig
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« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2013, 06:31:25 am »

About bounding box (hitbox), one might find interesting some screenshots and explainations here: www.ra.is/unlagged/faq.html#IJRAMBIHOIJRAHBIM

It's from the FAQ of the Unlagged mod for Q3A. Is seems that Unlagged mod has got a cg_drawBBox variable (cheat-protected, hence requiring devmap) to show bounding boxes.
I don't know if also other Q3 mods that use Unlagged technology (Unlagged Rocket-rail, some versions of CorkScrew, maybe also Alternate Fire but I'm not sure) may have that variable, too. I'm writing from phone and I can't check now.
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Akom74
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« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2013, 03:11:34 pm »

....ehm, any news ?

 Wink
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