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Author Topic: Gauging interest: OpenArena Community Mappack Volume 2  (Read 20307 times)
Neon_Knight
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« on: January 17, 2014, 04:01:29 am »

With Volume 1 out of the way, it's time to start thinking about this one. I'll remind you the rules:

  • The maps and the assets used to create them must be GPLv2-complaint. Licenses which can enter: Public Domain, GPLv2, GPLv1, and stuff made from scratch as long as it's licensed on one of these licenses. Everything else (CC, copyrighted stuff -!-) is out.
  • The maps of this pack must work on a vanilla OA folder, without the need of compatibility packs. We're taking 0.8.8 as the reference version. Most of the people playing this pck will surely have a vanilla folder and other PK3 causes us unnecessary headaches when it comes to testing and bugfixing.
  • Botplay AAS file required. Not everyone wants to play online.
  • Stick to default OA gametypes. Not everyone has mods.

And some recommendations:

  • Although the style of the maps is up to the mappers themselves, we prefer maps made specifically for this pack over updatings and original works over remakes.
  • Create a Readme! The OA wiki has a readme model you can use.
  • Avoid as much as possible to name your asset folders with known names such as xcsv or mkoxide or swelt*. If possible, use the oacmp_ prefix to differentiate the asset folder from the originals.

More related stuff can be found in the Developer FAQ.

I know Akom has already done 4 or 5 maps. I have 3 of them in progress. And there's Peter's which didn't made the full cut for OACMP1. Who else is going to participate in this?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 07:26:38 pm by Neon_Knight » Logged


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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2014, 04:15:57 am »

BTW, after OACMP2 it would be a good idea to focus all of our efforts into helping fromhell getting OA3 done.
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Gig
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2014, 04:29:56 am »

I think to be able to only bring a very small "tourney" map, just a small "fun map". I cannot spend the time I spent for "under destruction" map again.  Smiley
I already have the idea, and a rough base to start from (a test Akom did many years ago starting from my idea).
I'm still not sure about the results.

Of course, you know I'll do what I can (although I have my deficiencies) for testing.  Smiley

-----------------

A map I'd like to see in OACMP Vol. 2 is a screenshot someone showed us a long time ago. I remember a single screenshot of a map with two pirate ships fighthing (maybe that was a CTF one, I'm not sure). From what I can recall, that looked a really cool setting.  Cool
But I don't remember who was the author of that screenshot (Moixie maybe? Or who else?), or the reason why it was not in OACMP Vol. 1 (maybe the author said that it was too small, and he would have had to redo/enlarge it, but at that time it was a bit too late to add more maps to the pack?)...

I'd really like to see that map done. Does someone remember something about it?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 04:37:54 am by Gig » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2014, 04:37:21 am »

I hope to finish at least one map for this pack. I have three of them, and I want at least one of them to make the cut.
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Gig
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2014, 04:39:36 am »

I hope to finish at least one map for this pack. I have three of them, and I want at least one of them to make the cut.
I have no problem if you will include all three of them, or even more. Noone said Volume 2 cannot include more maps than Volume 1. Smiley
I would also be curious for your Rooftop Freefall map.  Wink
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 04:48:44 am by Gig » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2014, 04:41:29 am »

That map was more of an experiment. I haven't worked on it on a very long time.
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Gig
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2014, 04:56:59 am »

About the pirate-themed map, I found who is its author: Moixie!

http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=4679.msg46621#msg46621
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 05:03:56 am by Gig » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2014, 05:14:45 am »

BTW, we can count this as another tool: a readme model. I should make an OA version.

http://lvlworld.com/txt/sample-readme.txt
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2014, 05:50:52 pm »

For those willing to collaborate, I suggest to you that you read the DeveloperFAQ for this pack.

http://openarena.wikia.com/wiki/OACMP/DeveloperFAQ
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Akom74
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2014, 07:12:13 am »

With Volume 1 out of the way, it's time to start thinking about this one. I know Akom has already done 4 or 5 maps. I have 3 of them in progress. And there's Peter's which didn't made the full cut for OACMP1. Who else is going to participate in this?

I'm thinking to not release maps for Volume 2 but release them as normal OA maps.

.....don't know......

Wink
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Gig
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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2014, 05:21:06 am »

Do not be angry with me...  Grin
Just another reminder to do not publish completely untested heavy changes:
In the screenshot attached, an oacmpdm9 glitch, probably caused by changes done the day right before the final release, or the same day, which we had no way to test.
I hope for Volume 2 there will not be so big "last minute" changes (in Volume 1, I fear a few maps have been altered too much after RC2...).

@Akom: I think you may release them in OACMP, I can guess this may give them some more "visibility" than standalone maps.  Wink Our final goal is just to hope that someone around the World may enjoy to spend some time with the result of our work, isn't so?  Smiley
If the problem is related with changes which modified your maps from your initial ideas, I hope next time similar changes will be proposed, done and tested with the right timings (example: during Beta stage instead of RC stage). Is that the problem? However, if one does not feel the map in the final OACMP as "his own map" anymore, the license allows him (or anyone else) to also publish a "director's cut"/"original cut"/"remix"/"etc." version by his own, with some or many differences than the version used in OACMP (even months after OACMP release).  Wink
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 05:46:37 am by Gig » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2014, 06:20:39 am »

I'm considering to use fromhell's approach and create an "OACMP Commits" thread. It may even work better than any kind of CVS such as SVN or Git. At least it has proven to be reliable for OA 0.8.x. It's an extra step, but a mostly secure and clean one.
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Suicizer
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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2014, 03:23:53 pm »

After questioning if OA_Suicizer should appear in OA3 instantly or test it out by using the OA Community Mapppack Volume Project, I wonder:

What is (or are) the goal(s) of this mappack actually?

I know Neon_Knight did a great job posting that reminder here, but those points aren't the actual goal of this piece of project, are they??!
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 03:27:31 pm by Suicizer » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2014, 03:43:34 pm »

Copypaste from the Wiki:

Quote
OpenArena Community Mappack (also called OACMP) is a series of mappacks containing GPL'd maps made by the community itself. The idea is to give GPL servers something else to play aside of the official maps and the already GPLv2'd maps.

http://openarena.wikia.com/wiki/OACMP
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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2014, 05:36:50 pm »

Copypaste from the Wiki:

Quote
OpenArena Community Mappack (also called OACMP) is a series of mappacks containing GPL'd maps made by the community itself. The idea is to give GPL servers something else to play aside of the official maps and the already GPLv2'd maps.

http://openarena.wikia.com/wiki/OACMP

Perhaps because I'm used to the including model of Cube Engine 2 I still don't get it.
So maps of the community have a lower (to none) chance to be included as they need to be in the community pack first?
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fromhell
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2014, 06:08:33 pm »

It has to do with license, copyright crap past the radar (having to pull OA 0.8.0 was not a fun time for anyone here, and I know Sauerbraten had a pulling over a contributor sneaking in copyrighted material he claimed as his own as well) and the file support of the engine doesn't make it ideal to massively include every map available.    It is a bigger risk for the base release because the base gets circulated as a standard package in many distro repositories and mirrors...


Also, I don't like large file sizes.   I know OA's player pak files go over 100mb and that's due to lots of textures and bloated MD3 frames out of having high polycounts and it's even worse when they're actually loaded in game because they can trip the memory limit and cause a crash.  Going all single textured MDR would make that total 26mb in theory and keep the memory safer - even more than Q3 (assuming r_picmip 1).    Maps and their textures required also go a bit over 100mb.  That's understandable for the textures since we do have a 2x res direction since that's mostly a harmless graphical gain that can be reduced painlessly... though it could help the extreme low end if we also had paletted pcx textures half or quarter the size that get loaded instead by option, even with alpha channels done by index 255 chroma key...
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 06:18:57 pm by fromhell » Logged
Neon_Knight
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2014, 07:37:28 am »

Copypaste from the Wiki:

Quote
OpenArena Community Mappack (also called OACMP) is a series of mappacks containing GPL'd maps made by the community itself. The idea is to give GPL servers something else to play aside of the official maps and the already GPLv2'd maps.

http://openarena.wikia.com/wiki/OACMP

Perhaps because I'm used to the including model of Cube Engine 2 I still don't get it.
So maps of the community have a lower (to none) chance to be included as they need to be in the community pack first?
You're getting the wrong idea.

It was NEVER (and it will NEVER be) a request to add a map to OACMP in order for it to be added to an official OA release. Anyone, as long as they respect the development rules for OA itself, is still able to contribute to the game by sending their stuff to the SVN Commits thread. I have done many maps for OA (the am_* maps) and they were included in either the SVN or official releases or both. And even the times where my stuff hasn't made the cut, I was told what they needed to be changed in order to be compliant. The thing with OA3, though, is that we want to stop being FOSS gaming's favorite punchbag. And for that to be a reality we need to stop a bit with the "throw everything you can find as long as it's free" mentality which made the 0.x versions a "mess" (a past contributor with commit access who isn't anymore in these forums is the one to blame for that, not fromhell).

Back to OACMP, the objective is not only to have something extra for GPLv2 servers but also to get something close to an official release while waiting for OA3 to be done and to atract people in order to collaborate.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 07:41:36 am by Neon_Knight » Logged


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Suicizer
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2014, 07:49:24 am »

Copypaste from the Wiki:

Quote
OpenArena Community Mappack (also called OACMP) is a series of mappacks containing GPL'd maps made by the community itself. The idea is to give GPL servers something else to play aside of the official maps and the already GPLv2'd maps.

http://openarena.wikia.com/wiki/OACMP
R
Perhaps because I'm used to the including model of Cube Engine 2 I still don't get it.
So maps of the community have a lower (to none) chance to be included as they need to be in the community pack first?
You're getting the wrong idea.

It was NEVER (and it will NEVER be) a request to add a map to OACMP in order for it to be added to an official OA release. Anyone, as long as they respect the development rules for OA itself, is still able to contribute to the game by sending their stuff to the SVN Commits thread. I have done many maps for OA (the am_* maps) and they were included in either the SVN or official releases or both. And even the times where my stuff hasn't made the cut, I was told what they needed to be changed in order to be compliant. The thing with OA3, though, is that we want to stop being FOSS gaming's favorite punchbag. And for that to be a reality we need to stop a bit with the "throw everything you can find as long as it's free" mentality which made the 0.x versions a "mess" (a past contributor with commit access who isn't anymore in these forums is the one to blame for that, not fromhell).

Back to OACMP, the objective is not only to have something extra for GPLv2 servers but also to get something close to an official release while waiting for OA3 to be done and to atract people in order to collaborate.

What's the point then of being included in the mappack when you can also be included in official OA Huh
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2014, 07:57:07 am »

Because mappack is an easier way to organize mappers and testers effort (and get at least some legal audit), it allows players to use new maps right now, instead of waiting indefinitely long amount of time for OA3 release, and it made bigger news than just releasing individual maps one-by-one.
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Gig
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2014, 01:24:23 pm »

Also, OA3 will have even more strict quality standards than OACMP.

Oacmp recommends using good techinques, while OA3 requires more strict performance and filesize requirements (I don't remember details at the moment).

Update: More, OA3 will not include quake-series-remakes in the main package anymore.

So maps of the community have a lower (to none) chance to be included as they need to be in the community pack first?
OACMP and OA3 are two independent things, however nothing prevents a map first released in one pack to later be "adapted" into an "improved" version in the other one. However:
- OA3 has got more strict requirements.
- In both cases, the maps have to be GPL-compliant and the author has to clearly state his will to include it in a certain pack (well, anyone can "fork" a GPL map -after being sure it was really GPL-, make changes, and then submit it).
- I can guess that having absolutely identical maps in OACMP and OA3 would have little sense. In case of double release, I suppose maps should be somehow "remixed".
- The final word about what goes to official OA releases stands to Fromhell only. Well, in case Fromhell would state something about a certain OACMP map, I suppose we would follow that indication anyway... but in case of official OA stuff, it's Fromhell in person who actually places the files into the SVN repository.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 02:56:04 am by Gig » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2014, 07:04:42 pm »

Considering how things evolved with OACMP vol. 1, I'm very tempted to enforce good building techniques as well. Especially when how to reach those good building techniques isn't THAT hard to achieve, yet it's very overlooked.
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Gig
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« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2014, 02:33:22 am »

Good mapping techniques are of course an advisable thing.

However, OA3 map requirements (http://openarena.wikia.com/wiki/OA3#Maps) include a few ones that may be impossible to fit even following as much as possible all good mapping techiniques, depending from the map you are going to create.
Quote
- The game will be shipped only with unique, non-knockoff maps. Tributes and remakes of commercial games' maps enter the third-party territory.
- Might not exceed 5mb uncompressed.
- Must reach 30fps on Pentium II 233MHz computer with simple items.
I think maps not fitting these three items (hence, not being adapt for OA3 main package) may still fit OACMPs. This is not meant as an encouragement for using bad mapping techniques, I just want to say that "tribute/complex/large/open" maps may find place in OACMPs instead of OA3.

PS: I do not know how it is possible for mappers/testers to actually perform the "Pentium II test". Who has got a Pentium II available nowadays? And which graphic card? And using which graphic settings? With or without bots?
If that would be a test Fromhell would personally do, I can guess will do for "official" OA3 maps, not for "unofficial" OACMP maps, which development Fromhell follows (relatively) little.

By the way, it's not clear if the "5 MB limit" refers to .bsp or .map... I can guess it refers to .bsp, but I'm not sure...
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 03:35:35 am by Gig » Logged

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Akom74
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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2014, 03:49:26 pm »

Quote
- Might not exceed 5mb uncompressed.

.... it's not clear if the "5 MB limit" refers to .bsp or .map... I can guess it refers to .bsp, but I'm not sure...

I think that little but optimized map are welcome for OA3.
Oa_Suicizer, tiny map but detailed it's 2,14 MB (2.252.800 byte)
Udestruction (from V4_fixed), large ambient but not filled with polygons it's 5,00 MB (5.251.072 byte)

Just for example Tongue

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2014, 12:41:18 am »

Do not be angry with me...  Grin
Just another reminder to do not publish completely untested heavy changes: (...) I hope for Volume 2 there will not be so big "last minute" changes (in Volume 1, I fear a few maps have been altered too much after RC2...).
Note taken.

I'm going to give you a reminder, as well. When I, or someone else, says that something "it's not going to be fixed", stop insisting. Major things such as BSP holes and entities not working correctly have a MAJOR priority than minor things such as "this weapon is 4 pixels out of place?".

Also a reminder to everyone: PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS RIGHT, USE GOOD BRUSHWORK!!! And also use the latest versions of q3map2/bspc!!! Remember that not everyone who plays OA will have a powerful computer which can handle tons of polygons at the same time. Bad brushwork increases needlessly the amount of polygons rendered at the same time. Not to mention the amount of unnecessary headaches. Time and efforts can be saved if everything is thought from the principle.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 12:45:10 am by Neon_Knight » Logged


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« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2014, 02:39:34 am »

Just for example Tongue
Did you notice oacmpdm7 (plan 9 from outer space) is 5 MB, or even a bit more?
That's a very small map (but with a skybox)... I don't know the reason of its size. I don't know what may cause a such small map to have a such bsp.
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