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Author Topic: New gametype: Hill Control (or King of the Hill)  (Read 7639 times)
Cyrus the Guy
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« on: October 22, 2014, 01:03:46 PM »

Okay, so let me get straight to the point. Hill Control is like Domination and Double Domination, except it is free for all(no teams, although team hill control can work too), there's only one control point in an ideally central area (the hill) and you get points for each second you are within with the hill's bounds(or, "being on the hill"), but if an enemy is on the hill, the hill is contested, and no points will be rewarded until there's only one player or team within. The general layout of the maps for Hill Control have a central area where the hill is at, surrounded by rooms or areas where the spawns and pickups are. Think of TF2's koth/arena general map designs for this one.

When I said the gametype would need its own maps, it's because I imagine the maps using (a) trigger volume(s) for the hill's bounds so mappers can fine tune the dimensions of the hill to the needs of the map, although it may be more feasible, backwards compatibility and design wise, to simply use a modified control point entity with a somewhat large or(maybe?) per-map customizable collision dimensions, in either box, spherical or cylindrical shape. Additionally, each and every area of the map needs relative easy access to the hill, and the central area(the hill) is what the rest of the map is designed around, which most maps aren't.

In terms of items the players can use, any and all OA weapons and items can be used, from the grapple to railgun to BFG to the missionpack guns/items, although invulnerability and the prox mines have the potential of breaking the gameplay wide open if they're in the map due to the way the gametype works.

For scoring, the default scorelimit should be at a nice 200-250 point range and the default timelimit is 3 minutes. Since hill contesting could be a problem, one point can be rewarded each frag for players getting killed when inside the hill, regardless if the player doing the killing is in the hill or not. As expected, the highest scoring team/player at the timelimit wins.

...Before anyone comments, it's basically King of the Hill. Why is it named Hill Control and not King of the Hill? Because there's already two deathmatch maps in the current OA release which use the filenames I intended for the gametype's dedicated gameplay maps. oa_koth1 and oa_koth2. So in that case, the maps would be filenamed oa_hillcon*

EDIT: Oh, this was actually proposed on the wiki's wishlist page... Anyway, King of the Hill discussion thread?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 01:35:38 PM by Cyrus the Guy » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2014, 03:52:52 PM »

Sounds like a campfest to me (I seriously hate that).
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2014, 06:18:05 PM »

I am not against more "FFA" type modes either.
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2014, 06:45:42 PM »

Chaos UT has an example of how this mode works. The Hill area (and if possible, its surroundings) should be barred of any kind of items to prevent defensive/camping-happy gameplay.
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2014, 04:33:13 AM »

Quad Hog is actually the very same as KOTH, but way more simple (as the frags count, not the seconds) and way more flexible (not map-related, it's an item which can spawn anywhere in the map at start and after killing the holder, etc). So I would rather recommend a mode which isn't depending on a few maps.
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Cyrus the Guy
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2014, 03:04:57 PM »

Quad Hog is actually the very same as KOTH, but way more simple (as the frags count, not the seconds) and way more flexible (not map-related, it's an item which can spawn anywhere in the map at start and after killing the holder, etc). So I would rather recommend a mode which isn't depending on a few maps.

As much as it sounds like Quad Hog in theory, they perform totally different things, and have a very different end experience.

KOTH is about fighting over a -stationary and can't miss it- open hill with no pickups, seen and accessible to a majority of the map, where the players and items spawn. 360 degrees of wide open space where your only defenses are the health, armor, and pickups you brought with you onto the hill. And "Camping" already happens. Those sniper perches and those players who guard the flags in CTF? They camp. Even pros in widely spectated matches do it to some extent, for whatever reason. Camping is just as much a part of gameplay as moving around and scoring points. It may be better in some or even most cases to move around the map, but camping can be used for good gameplay in game design, if the developer is willing to spend effort into to making it work well ingame.

KOTH sounds like a campfest on paper, but that's either because of bad map design, and/or because of an imbalance in the players, in either skill or number of teammates. Any map can heavily determine the gameplay and game balance, and there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because nobody in the OA community decided to test it out, or nobody seriously gave the idea a chance to experiment with the OA gameplay. If you'd like Quad Hog or a gametype that isn't a "campfest" and/or that uses "normal" maps, then please make your own threads requesting it. As much as it's your opinion, this thread is about talking about King of the Hill - as in, talking about if it's feasible at all(does it violate NOTTODO? Can it be implemented ingame?) and possibly even actually testing it as a new Non-Team gametype, something that IMHO OpenArena needs more of.

Quote
actually very similar

Why do you say they're so similar, given what I said earlier, and what you, yourself said earlier? Do tell. Saying that they're "actually very similar" when it's "way more simple(HOW is it more simple? Actively defending one spot is simpler than picking up a quad damage where you can move around and even find a place to CAMP with it? Nothing's really way more simple!)" as the "frags count, not the seconds(That means that the fundamental way to win is entirely different. You can't say that it takes the same skills to just get kills and also get the most time controlling a point)" and "way more flexible(uh, yeah sure, let's go with that)" by not being "map-related(as in, uses "regular" maps)", "being an item(the hill is a LOCATION that visibly and obviously stays in one predetermined spot and gives no upgrades, not an ITEM that gives you an upgrade when you pick it up)".

In short, the two gamemodes are NOT "actually very similar".

And in any case, I'd prefer having Possession(from console Q3) over Quad Hog, because it doesn't involve any upgrades to the holder, especially one that may already be placed on the map. Ever play a Quad Hog game on a map where the already placed Quad is what the map's gameplay revolves around on a fundamental level? That's a big reason why. An objective needed to win having the same gameplay effect as a normal pickup or weapon(especially when they're both in a map) is what I feel doesn't work well in game design.

And the problem with having new maps? There are currently released and unreleased OA maps(and probably will be more in the future) which were designed for certain gametypes that weren't present in Q3/TA. Should that mean that the non Q3/TA gametypes like Domination and Double Domination(supposedly camp-heavy on paper) should be removed from the new OA because they're considered campfests, or are designed with that non-Q3 gametype in mind?

This is a forum for ideas for the new OA, and I made this topic because I wanted to see if KOTH could be discussed as a viable option. So please elaborate WHY you don't think it will work, or show me convincing evidence for why it won't work. I'm willing to playtest and make the maps for the new gametype, when I learn netradiant and finish up a map. Everyone has a purpose for what they do. I'd like to see this ingame, either as a mod or as an official gametype, which is why I made this topic; and basically why I made an account on this forum, because I'd like to contribute to a game I like playing.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 03:23:24 PM by Cyrus the Guy » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2014, 04:09:14 PM »

Quad Hog is actually the very same as KOTH, but way more simple (as the frags count, not the seconds) and way more flexible (not map-related, it's an item which can spawn anywhere in the map at start and after killing the holder, etc). So I would rather recommend a mode which isn't depending on a few maps.

As much as it sounds like Quad Hog in theory, they perform totally different things, and have a very different end experience.

KOTH is about fighting over a -stationary and can't miss it- open hill with no pickups, seen and accessible to a majority of the map, where the players and items spawn. 360 degrees of wide open space where your only defenses are the health, armor, and pickups you brought with you onto the hill. And "Camping" already happens. Those sniper perches and those players who guard the flags in CTF? They camp. Even pros in widely spectated matches do it to some extent, for whatever reason. Camping is just as much a part of gameplay as moving around and scoring points. It may be better in some or even most cases to move around the map, but camping can be used for good gameplay in game design, if the developer is willing to spend effort into to making it work well ingame.

KOTH sounds like a campfest on paper, but that's either because of bad map design, and/or because of an imbalance in the players, in either skill or number of teammates. Any map can heavily determine the gameplay and game balance, and there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because nobody in the OA community decided to test it out, or nobody seriously gave the idea a chance to experiment with the OA gameplay. If you'd like Quad Hog or a gametype that isn't a "campfest" and/or that uses "normal" maps, then please make your own threads requesting it. As much as it's your opinion, this thread is about talking about King of the Hill - as in, talking about if it's feasible at all(does it violate NOTTODO? Can it be implemented ingame?) and possibly even actually testing it as a new Non-Team gametype, something that IMHO OpenArena needs more of.

Quote
actually very similar

Why do you say they're so similar, given what I said earlier, and what you, yourself said earlier? Do tell. Saying that they're "actually very similar" when it's "way more simple(HOW is it more simple? Actively defending one spot is simpler than picking up a quad damage where you can move around and even find a place to CAMP with it? Nothing's really way more simple!)" as the "frags count, not the seconds(That means that the fundamental way to win is entirely different. You can't say that it takes the same skills to just get kills and also get the most time controlling a point)" and "way more flexible(uh, yeah sure, let's go with that)" by not being "map-related(as in, uses "regular" maps)", "being an item(the hill is a LOCATION that visibly and obviously stays in one predetermined spot and gives no upgrades, not an ITEM that gives you an upgrade when you pick it up)".

In short, the two gamemodes are NOT "actually very similar".

And in any case, I'd prefer having Possession(from console Q3) over Quad Hog, because it doesn't involve any upgrades to the holder, especially one that may already be placed on the map. Ever play a Quad Hog game on a map where the already placed Quad is what the map's gameplay revolves around on a fundamental level? That's a big reason why. An objective needed to win having the same gameplay effect as a normal pickup or weapon(especially when they're both in a map) is what I feel doesn't work well in game design.

And the problem with having new maps? There are currently released and unreleased OA maps(and probably will be more in the future) which were designed for certain gametypes that weren't present in Q3/TA. Should that mean that the non Q3/TA gametypes like Domination and Double Domination(supposedly camp-heavy on paper) should be removed from the new OA because they're considered campfests, or are designed with that non-Q3 gametype in mind?

This is a forum for ideas for the new OA, and I made this topic because I wanted to see if KOTH could be discussed as a viable option. So please elaborate WHY you don't think it will work, or show me convincing evidence for why it won't work. I'm willing to playtest and make the maps for the new gametype, when I learn netradiant and finish up a map. Everyone has a purpose for what they do. I'd like to see this ingame, either as a mod or as an official gametype, which is why I made this topic; and basically why I made an account on this forum, because I'd like to contribute to a game I like playing.

Read better, I already gave answers to your questions except for one; I won't start a thread about Quad Hog as I've learned long ago that you can't just throw an idea to a developer and expect it to happen. You can only add suggestions to his ideas. Although the coding gods seems to be pleased with more FFA mods; you don't need a separate thread for each slight change in a gamemode.

KOTH and Quad Hog are basically very similar. Except for a few things.
Who says someone wouldn't get the idea to build a fortress on  top of the hill and throw it full with armour, health and ammo?  After that, it could be run 24/7 on some server as you don't control what's being played on that server anyway.
So it seems as a pretty fragile game mode which can be interpreted incorrect quite easily when designing a map for it and eventually also abused. Quad Hog has no such trouble at all as it's independent. It doesn't need special maps to function as it just functions.
Shouldn't maps be as flexible as possible towards other game modes anyway (so not designed for a specific mode, but rather more of them)?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 04:25:22 PM by Suicizer » Logged

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Cyrus the Guy
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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2014, 04:11:47 PM »

Hmm. Interesting.
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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2014, 04:58:12 PM »

I wanted a 'catch the chicken' tribute gametype for something like that, disarming the player completely for points of having the said chicken.

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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2014, 10:32:05 PM »

I wanted a 'catch the chicken' tribute gametype for something like that, disarming the player completely for points of having the said chicken.


So, some sort of Haste Hog  Tongue?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 02:38:23 AM by Suicizer » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2014, 12:52:50 AM »

I wanted a 'catch the chicken' tribute gametype for something like that, disarming the player completely for points of having the said chicken.

In the meanwhile, DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/ModCompat/Q3_Catch_the_Chicken]Q3 Catch the Chicken mod works well enough with OA.  Smiley
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