Question: Should (Single) Domination be played with Runes?
Yay! - 1 (25%)
Nay! - 3 (75%)
Total Voters: 4

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Author Topic: (Single) Domination and Runes  (Read 105 times)
In the year 3000

Cakes 49
Posts: 3714

Trickster God.

« on: November 24, 2018, 11:05:27 am »

Some days ago, this exchange of opinions about the presence of runes in took place in the gamecode repo. As for the context, the pull request I've pushed is about a better control about what's spawned on the maps, as CTF flags keep showing in FFA/TDM/1on1:

Quote from: Gig
why does the code hide the runes in Domination?
For Double Domination okay, 0.8.8 already hides them, as I can guess Guard and Scout would be OverPower there, making scoring very difficult.
But Domination is different, so I don't think there is a reason to remove them there, unless the mapper or the server admin wants so. In 0.8.8 they are there.
Futhermore, I'm not sure, but maybe "hidden" items can still be touched and grabbed...

Quote from: Neon_Knight
Domination is a base-less gametype. It doesn't make sense to have team-locked runes.

Quote from: Gig
You know that runes can be placed without team-lock, e.g. in the middle of the map. That's how I did in OACMPDM10, and IIRC you mentioned you also did it in one of your recent czest2ctf betas. So, I think in this case the choice should be left to map author.
Now that I think about it, playing Domination in ctf-based maps with team-locked runes may still be an incentive for players to roam the map even far from the Domination point, to reach their team-dedicated runes.

Also, runes (team-locked or not) spawn in other "base-less" gametypes such as FFA and TDM, why should Domination differ?

Maybe a thing could actually be checked is that team-locked runes do not appear in teamless modes (where they actually cannot be grabbed by anyone - while the opposite is possible).

Quote from: Neon_Knight
In-game, IICR, team-locked runes are only available to the team that picks them. Blue team can't pick up red runes, and red team can't pick up blue runes. This is regardless of gametype.

Quote from: Gig
If you are red, you can pick up "red-locked" runes and "team free" runes. If you are blue, you can pick up "blue-locked" runes and "team free" runes. But when you are playing in any non-team-based mode, you can pick up "team free" runes only, as you are not red and you are not blue... so maybe the game may directly hide red-locked and blue-locked runes in those gametypes, showing only those which are "team free". In team-based modes, all three kinds of runes should be shown instead (unless hidden for some other reason, such as being OP in Double Domination).

Quote from: Neon_Knight
Gig, having team-locked items in gametypes doesn't make any sense. You're NOT supposed to give a team an advantage over the other team in gamemodes where this is NOT a requirement or a good idea. Suppose the dom points are located in each team's base. If the red team picks up the point, then they have close access to a rune or set of runes only the red team can pick them up. But if the blue team captures this same point, then they are near runes they CAN'T take advantage of. This creates an unnecessary imbalance.

Quote from: Gig
You are not considering:

    That in a map like that, there would still be balancing, due to each team having an area with runes for them. Blue team would have an help near to what in other modes would be the blue base, and red team would have an help near to what in other modes would be the red base. Sometimes they may be attacking there, sometimes they may be defending there, but overall it would be balanced.
    If mappers don't like this, they have "gametype" and "!gametype" keys available.
    If server admins don't like this, they have "g_runes" cvar available.
    I have never heard someone complaining about the presence of runes in Domination mode, why do you want to fix what ain't broken? :-/

Quote from: Neon_Knight
Because Domination isn't as played as FFA, TDM, CTF or Elimination. Because the game and the serveradmins don't incentive people to go outside of the popular modes. And the fact that serveradmins don't complain about the problem doesn't mean that the problem is not there.

In Domination, areas are supposed to be neutral for both teams. I don't think I have to repeat that again nor anything I've said before, Gig. It's NOT a good idea, it will NEVER be. What could be implemented is the nullification of both RED_TEAM and BLUE_TEAM spawnflags for non-base-based modes so runes can be picked up by anyone.

Admittedly, I wasn't in the mood for a debate that day. This continued onto Discord, where Sago weighed in his opinion:

Quote from: Gig
IMHO, no team has an "advantage" over the other one, as long as both teams have the same number of runes available. When Sago removed runes from Double Domination and kept them in Domination, he would have had his reasons... My opinion is that the current (0.8.Cool behavior of Runes in Dom is correct, of course this cannot be taken as an absolute truth. Of course, hearing what other people think about is probably the right way to go. :smiley:

Quote from: sago007
I thought of Domination, I thought if a gametype primarily played on Deathmatch maps which would not have runes anyway. I don't think any DM map should have runes but I did not want waste code lines to enforce it. I considered instead to make a map-scanner that would scan maps for known errors like "not enought DM spawn points whitout restrictions", "Failure to use the correct CTF spawns", "runes without team specified", "missing camera" etc. Which would save code lines in the gamecode.

So what does the people think about the situation? Should the runes be enabled for non-base-based gamemodes? I don't think so.

"Level Designers are 1 part architect, 1 part artist, 1 part game designer, and 1 part beta tester!" Cliff Bleszinski
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In the year 3000

Cakes 47
Posts: 4319

« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2018, 03:46:20 pm »

Do you want to add also the third option? Your idea of nullifying RED_TEAM and BLUE_TEAM spawnflags in Dom (making all runes available for everyone there), which might be a working compromise, although I'm not really a fan of secondary game rules working differently in different modes.

I never want to be aggressive, offensive or ironic with my posts. If you find something offending in my posts, read them again searching for a different mood there. If you still see something bad with them, please ask me infos. I can be wrong at times, but I never want to upset anyone.
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