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Author Topic: Standardized Maps  (Read 7431 times)
Noz
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« on: July 23, 2007, 01:47:56 PM »

More than half of every server I try to join via the in-game server browser requires me to download new maps.  It is so unbelievably frustrating because the game servers transfer files at only 4-10KB/s and it takes at least 10-20 minutes to download the map... and then another transfer starts for another missing map.

I don't have just the maps that are included with 0.7 mind you.  I got the 200MB map pack from this thread: http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=317.0  Which, by the way, the first and third link under "Maps & Models" lead to sites with broken or non-working links.  The only link that worked was the second one called "Huge mappack, like a million sweet levels.".

When servers keep sending me missing maps despite having all the built-in ones plus 50 or so maps from a 200MB map pack, it's enough to make me say "screw it, why bother with OpenArena when I have Quake 3?".  And I can't possibly be the only one.  What are complete noobs to Q3/OA going to say if every time they try to join a server they have to wait 30+ minutes before they can play?  They will say expletives and go play something else.

What is being done to create standardize third-party map packs for OpenArena?
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anyone
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2007, 02:42:50 PM »

What is being done to create standardize third-party map packs for OpenArena?
If a such third-party map pack is released, nothing force servers admin to use it... and further nothing force them to "only" use that one. I mean... even if there are using standardize third-party map packs, nothing can prevent them to add one or two (or thousands) other maps comings from somewhere else (or mapped on their own).
That's more a problem to discus with server's owner than OA developers I think…
But I agree, it's annoying.
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Noz
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2007, 03:36:35 PM »

You are right, nothing forces server admins to include a map or map pack.  But how do admins decide which maps to use?  They will of course add maps of their own choosing, but if enough players request a certain map the admin should either add it or create another server that includes the ones the players want.  This is how it was done in Q3; there would be a server that uses only the baseq3 maps on the default port, and on a different port it would host games that uses the Threewave map packs, or the OSP mods, or something else.  The admin certainly has a right not to include what he/she doesn't want, but this admin would risk losing players to other server admins who are more receptive.

When a map becomes popular players will request it, and the same will apply for map packs.  Threewave is an excellent example and it showed the #1 benefit of not having individual pk3 files for each individual map.  Threewave contact map makers and requested permission to include the maps they made into their compilation.  The admin still had the right to pick and choose which map from the compilation to use, but as long as players had the 3w map packs there was no need to make the players go out on the internet to search for a particular map or wait for one to download.  Map packs are the only way to go.

Quote
That's more a problem to discus with server's owner than OA developers I think

I just want to vent my frustration about this issue in the hopes that at least one OA developer feels the same way I do and does something about this.  Maybe start a small side project that involves creating a compilation of the most popular OA maps in order to reduce the necessity for players to go out hunting for maps or waiting for them to download, because it is a big turn-off to an otherwise very nice Q3 derivative.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 04:07:36 PM by Noz » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2007, 04:34:48 PM »

I completely agree with you (and I used to love Threewave too ^^)
As far as I know, devs are actually focusing on improving OpenArena original contents (since 0.7 has lot more contents, but -in my opinion- has been a little rushed in order to make it available on 07/07/07). The team thinks that working on mods, additional maps and such would consume lot of time to bring more… but improving what's already there seems a bit more important (I think –that's just my opinion- that if OA quality's keep increasing, there should be more and more servers running without additional stuff -anyway, OA is a open game so many people may want to present there own vision of the game through their server-… servers are really important because… well… we can't rely on bots forever Cheesy)
Personally, I don't know how many (playable and low ping) pure servers are around (or even how to find them)… Anyhow, it is indeed really needed. While hanging around the forum, I found this maybe could it be useful to you (have a search around, who knows ?)
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dmn_clown
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2007, 08:51:40 AM »

I just want to vent my frustration about this issue in the hopes that at least one OA developer feels the same way I do and does something about this.

Server's are run on a purely voluntary basis and we have no control over what they do, nor do we want control over what they do.
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w1zrd
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2007, 09:56:41 AM »

I run the *RAINBOW* servers and they use a wide range of custom, and also standard map. In addition to that there are also mods like defrag, corkscrew and realrockets. This requires that all clients that try to connect have the /cl_allowdownload 1 enabled: OTHERWISE IT WILL NOT WORK!

Hard to say, but I would guesstimate that it's about 50-80 people/day  tries to join the rainbow servers without having downloads on, of course they get angry when they cannot connect and do not understand why it doesn't work. In my opinion having it enabled by default would get more people used to a wider range of maps, not only the standard maps. The problem with new people is that they do not understand the option to enable it, nor do they know why they need it.

As for my personal preference I run the servers as sv_pure 1 and with a fast download capability. The reason that you get 4-5kb/s downloads is because there are lazy server admins who let their servers run on UDP connections. With a little research, knowledge and determination you can have a pure server, custom maps and fast downloads up and running without problems, but it is down to the admins. And I didn't give up until it worked.

When it comes down to the choice of maps I run on the servers, this is tested by myself and other server admins, as well as some players. After testing a new map for compability, playability and level of fun, then they end up in the server rotation. It's a democratic solution.

The maps that run on the *RAINBOW* servers are all listed here[edit: that hosting is closed]. If you do not want to download the maps 1 by 1 directly from the server with up to 1.3 mb/s download speed, you can download ALL the maps included on the servers which are included in a map-pack I put together that you get here. [edit: use this map-pack instead]

All in all, the quality of the server and the functionallity of it is down to the individual admin. I have spent a great deal of time and effort making this work, and it finally does. I can say with confidence that many of the players are happy with how it works, as they return daily to enjoy the fun. As OA is a free (as in fun) game, the rules for how it works are also free (still fun). Simply do what many players do, find a good server and enjoy the company.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 05:13:15 AM by w1zrd » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2007, 11:31:48 AM »

In my opinion having it enabled by default would get more people used to a wider range of maps, not only the standard maps.

And then we piss off the people that have to wait 3-4 hours to play on a server due to slow connection speeds, etc..  Autodownload is in the games configuration menu, the user just has to choose to use it or not.
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Noz
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2007, 01:06:30 AM »

Server's are run on a purely voluntary basis and we have no control over what they do, nor do we want control over what they do.

I have not suggested this at all!  All I am saying is that there should be some kind of compilation of 3rd party maps for OA just as Q3 had the compilations from Threewave.  It can be offered as an optional download along side of OA.  Players will obviously want to download it because why wouldn't they?  More maps to play on!  And if admins want to use those maps, they can be sure they won't be inconveniencing the players because they'll have those maps.  Of course it's not going to eliminate the problem completely, but it will definitely help.  Never had I said that you should tell the admins how to run their server, what maps they should use on their server, or anything of that nature.
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Noz
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2007, 01:51:20 AM »

The maps that run on the *RAINBOW* servers are all listed here. If you do not want to download the maps 1 by 1 directly from the server with up to 1.3 mb/s download speed, you can download ALL the maps included on the servers which are included in a map-pack I put together that you get here.


Thanks for pointing me to these maps I'll be sure to grab them, but it also illustrates my point.  It wasn't until I started complaining that I even knew of these maps.  Before I went through the trouble of making a forum account I checked the MAP forum.  While there were a ton of threads about individual maps, there is no sticky at the top indicating which maps I should have in order to play on X server.  There are some links to map packs, but they are in the GENERAL forum with a thread title that gives no indication of it having links to maps.  Two of the three links that point to map packs--way down in the post--also didn't work.  So I downloaded the one that did work and yet still I would encounter the file transfer when I try to join a server because some map is missing.  Now, at this point I think a lot of people will say, "this is just too much trouble, I want to play now not in 20 minutes".  I stuck around and made a forum account to explain this problem because I like Q3, I like OA, and I would like to see more people playing it without having to go through this problem which would only turn them off.  Obtaining maps should be simple, not frustrating.  If compilations isn't a possibility then at least links to maps on the main download page or at the very least a sticky in the MAP forum.
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MilesTeg
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2007, 03:00:22 AM »

Obtaining maps should be simple, not frustrating.

Altough I think a OA-Mappack is worth a try IMHO we need a more flexible way for gamers to recieve content. A forumthread or a DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Servers]wiki-page with the most common servers listed and the pk3s needed for each one would be a good start (including links).

AFAIK another problem is the internal autodownload function:
- it doesn't give you an idea of how much you have to download to enter the server (when there are several files)
- because of this you can't be sure how long it takes till you are ready to play
- autodownload needs to be available othervise (if I remember right) you get simply an error msg. it would be much better if the user is asked if he would like to download the content or want to disconnect. But I'm not sure if ioquake/oa will include this feature anytime soon.
- downloads are usually very slow - so it's a pain in the a** to dl 200 MB...

I also currently work on a little tool that should help people downloading maps, mods and other content:
http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=638.msg6294#msg6294
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 03:21:14 AM by MilesTeg » Logged

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w1zrd
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2007, 09:22:53 AM »

It wasn't until I started complaining that I even knew of these maps.
That specific map-pack I put together had been there for about 4 days, not much more Smiley
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 07:44:37 PM by w1zrd » Logged

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