Edgy OA Content

[tonnyx]

tonnyx, i was interested by your comments,
... but i think it should be possible to provide attractive female characters that appeal to male gamers without alienating female players. could you give me suggestions to what you feel would strike a good balance between the two camps. maybe you could name celebrities that you think fit the part.

Thanks for opening up some dialog!  I appreciate it.  I'll do my best to give constructive input.

One of the biggest issues for me is the underlying model.  You can't drape any clothes on top of an absurdly disproportionate model and come out with anything reasonable and attractive.  The biggest thing that comes to mind is breast size (pun intended).  Completely absurd these days.  I mean, come on, in combat? you don't want those getting in the way.

Here's one particular outfit I like: http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MG/201171~The-Matrix-Reloaded-Posters.jpg
And this one: http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/TRND/FP2765~Matrix-Trinity-Posters.jpg

It's not like these women are totally flat; but they're not just globular breasts with a body attached.

Have you seen the movie Serenity?  While I don't like how much cleavage Summer Glau is showing as her character River Tam, I really like her character's persona.  And I really like her face and hair.  Her character has a lot of depth, and everything about her reinforces who she is.  Her clothing is not merely lingerie, even though it is on the loose flowy side; it's there to reinforce her gracefulness.  But that's not all she is; she is graceful, feminine, vulnerable (as you find out through character development in the movie), and very very deadly (http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/images/summerglau.jpg).  That's my kind of girl. 

So all this to say that some of the best heroines in sci-fi action films are those who women find something that they can or want to identify with, but as you said, are still appealing to males.  It's wonderful when female characters have more personality traits than just sex appeal.  That by itself gets old, and any reasonable woman with decent self-esteem realizes quickly that identifying with such a character is unrewarding.

As I mentioned before, I liked the Kyonshi model because she's creepy; her full-coverage clothing and her creepy facial expression create more of a mystique than if she were letting it all hang out.  One need not know exactly what a Kyonshi is to realize that this chick is creepy.  So I hope that explains what I mean - a female character with an actual set of traits in mind helps to drive what she looks like, and even the "aura" that she has, and communicates to people, perhaps on a subconscious level, what kind of person she is.

If you look at the pictures above, you can kind of see what kind of women I like to identify with; there are other good female characters in movies, though.
Sigourney Weaver as Ripley in Aliens, for example:
http://www.planetout.com/images/slides/2003/kickass/sigourney.jpg

And then there's Vasquez in Aliens, if you go for that kind of thing (I don't, personally, but it's another example of a female character who, although she's still filling a stereotype, it's a different one from what we've been talking about):
http://imdb.com/gallery/ss/0090605/Ss/0090605/IMG0008.jpg.html

Oh yeah, and Eowyn in Lord of the Rings (http://www.kingelessar.nl/eowyn3.jpg)

So I hope that helps!  Thanks for soliciting input!

[fromhell]

but i think it should be possible to provide attractive female characters that appeal to male gamers without alienating female players.

You mean Major, Ayumi and Kyonshi don't exist?

[dmn_clown]

Not when you are on a witchhunt.

[hyp3rfocus]

tonnyx - thanks for the feedback. some useful ideas there.

fromhell - no, i think major, ayumi and kyonshi are definitely characters that don't alienate female characters and that's a good thing. what i'm thinking about is a model that's more glamorous than those characters, but a bit more restrained than angelyss.

dmn_clown - i hope the witchhunt comment wasn't directed at me.

[dmn_clown]

dmn_clown - i hope the witchhunt comment wasn't directed at me.

It wasn't, it was directed at people who seem to think that visible flesh == sexually driven content.  The fact that there is a content system being worked on for future releases has obviously escaped their notice.

[kernel panic]

Hi

I felt compelled to give my opinion since I think this is an important issue that affects the game from different angles, and nothing but positive ideas can be the outcome of debate.

a) Any consumable product should be free, to the maximum extent, of offensive and/or humiliating content, within the boundaries and standards expected by the intended audience.

OA, may I assume, it's developed by (and logically for) occidental people embracing the occidental culture. That's why nobody here is questioning whether the female characters should wear a veil, for instance. In western culture, nudity is not a tabu item as it used to be (thanks given), but countless times it is misused, usually quite intentionally, to add some appeal to a given product. Yes, there is something wrong with that if we care anything about the representation of women in society (which, in turn, defines the representation of man, by the way). Thus, a girl dressing a bikini next to a motorbike or car, or in the first page of a computer magazine, etc, has clearly nothing to do with the product but everything with marketing strategy.

Since I have no clue about what on earth a half-naked amazon-like character with a shotgun on one hand and a rocket launcher on the other may have to do with the game itself, I'm inclined to see this model as a misuse of the feminine body. This I hate from the mainstream culture; when it comes from independent and cooperative projects it just makes me feel sad. Please note that no content system can possibly amend this.

b) I believe the quality of the game is impaired with what it seems to be a random inclusion of different models no matter what. 0.7 is an excellent release, but some of the models (regardless of the sexual content now) look out of place, as if taken from different games. Perhaps a more thorough and sensible approach at the modelling stage (or whatever it's called) would make more people happier and improve the general feeling of the game, possibly saving complaints/suggestions like the ones originated in this thread.

Obviously, I'm not trying to annoy anybody with my opinions about the game and its contents. As the OP stated, this is not my party, I'm just a happy user who's made the choice to play this product for I enjoy it. Keep up with the good work.

[dmn_clown]

a) Any consumable product should be free, to the maximum extent, of offensive and/or humiliating content, within the boundaries and standards expected by the intended audience.

Thankfully Running With Scissors, makers of Postal 2:  Share the Pain (see attached screen shots) and Postal 2:  Apocalypse Weekend and Rockstar Games, makers of  GTA: Vice City, and GTA: San Andreas*, do not share your belief that everything must be free of offensive content.  These games are very fun to play and removing what you deem to be offensive content would ruin the games.

Since I have no clue about what on earth a half-naked amazon-like character with a shotgun on one hand and a rocket launcher on the other may have to do with the game itself, I'm inclined to see this model as a misuse of the feminine body. This I hate from the mainstream culture; when it comes from independent and cooperative projects it just makes me feel sad. Please note that no content system can possibly amend this.

You obviously have never played Quake 3.  Hunter fits your description of a half-naked amazon-like character.  Is iD Software then so bad?

•   Apparently it is perfectly alright to beat down cops with a double-headed dildo but the moment you use a memory hacker and/or download a third party product that opens a mini-game that simulates fully-clothed sex, the game is anathema and lawsuits ensue.

[hyp3rfocus]

OA, may I assume, it's developed by (and logically for) occidental people embracing the occidental culture.

i'm not occidental, i was a planned pregnancy.

;-)

[HanClinto]

Thankfully Running With Scissors, makers of Postal 2:  Share the Pain (see attached screen shots) and Postal 2:  Apocalypse Weekend and Rockstar Games, makers of  GTA: Vice City, and GTA: San Andreas*, do not share your belief that everything must be free of offensive content.  These games are very fun to play and removing what you deem to be offensive content would ruin the games.

I don't think he was saying everything needs to be free of offensive content -- I think he's saying that games intended for general audience should follow those guidelines.

Are you hoping to make a socio-political statement with OA to garner a specific niche shock-value interest, like Postal did? Or are you hoping for it to see wider appeal?

Noone is saying that you can't have bouncing bare boobies in your copy of the game -- we're all just saying that if the game is going to be for general Western-culture consumption, then a mere "content system" checkbox isn't going to help.

Thanks for the discussion!

Respectfully,
clint

[dmn_clown]

I don't think he was saying everything needs to be free of offensive content

I suggest you re-read what was posted.

Are you hoping to make a socio-political statement with OA to garner a specific niche shock-value interest, like Postal did? Or are you hoping for it to see wider appeal?

No, it's about giving free artistic rein to whoever wishes to contribute.  If you don't like the Angelyss skins, then redo them and submit them, or is this just about voicing your dislike for a model?

we're all just saying that if the game is going to be for general Western-culture consumption, then a mere "content system" checkbox isn't going to help.

Yet, you have no problem with UT2004 which is for "general Western-culture consumption" and has more offensive content than OpenArena...

Thanks for the discussion!

Your welcome.

[fromhell]

Since I have no clue about what on earth a half-naked amazon-like character with a shotgun on one hand and a rocket launcher on the other may have to do with the game itself, I'm inclined to see this model as a misuse of the feminine body.

Misuse how? It's not used in the front page, or about page, or even all over the game menus; just only some few pics in the gallery. It's not exploitation or 'misuse'.

If you really want to see 'misuse' may I suggest World of Padman, however since that is non-Free for media, you don't have a choice of having the 'misuse of female' removed. The game also has audible swearing too and is somewhat actually more offensive than OA in western culture, I think

[HanClinto]

I don't think he was saying everything needs to be free of offensive content

I suggest you re-read what was posted.

Sure thing!

He said:
"Any consumable product should be free, to the maximum extent, of offensive and/or humiliating content, within the boundaries and standards expected by the intended audience."
Basically, this is to say that if you intend to publish a game to appeal to a certain audience, that it probably shouldn't go against that audience's general culture.

He then went on to say:
"OA, may I assume, it's developed by (and logically for) occidental people embracing the occidental culture."
Basically, he's saying that he assumed that OA was trying to appeal to general western culture (I.E. average western males and females). He's saying that if your audience is general western culture, then he doesn't think you're going about the right way of appealing to that culture. Democratically (based on the number of other posters in this thread), it seems that the consensus would tend to agree with him on this point.

Based on your response to him, I asked you as to who you intended OA to be played by, and was wondering if you were content with a niche market (such as Postal), or if you were hoping to see the game played by a wider audience.

No, it's about giving free artistic rein to whoever wishes to contribute.  If you don't like the Angelyss skins, then redo them and submit them, or is this just about voicing your dislike for a model?

So, like an artistic free-for-all?

Generally, I've seen that the best and longest-lived community projects have an agreed-upon vision and purpose statement of the project that drives all of the decisions and helps everyone move forward towards a common agreed-upon goal. Volunteers sign up to contribute to a vision, not to make a statement of their own.

I understood the OA vision to be something different than the direction that it went in 0.7, and I am just asking that we be honest, intentional, and clear about what the goals of OA are, and clearly stating who we are trying to make the game appeal to. If we hash out the answer to that overarching purpose and audience statement, I think that will help resolve a lot of this conflict, because parties that don't agree with it can find other projects that line up with their personal ideals. Noone wants to leave OA -- we all want to see this project move forward with concentrated effort, but there's a conflict here, and I'm trying to see it resolved as effectively and respectfully as we can.

It's true that I don't like pornography, and as Tonnyx said so well, I think that distorted images of what femininity is quite damaging to the young women of a culture. That's not what this thread is about -- I'm just asking for the development community to be honest and up-front about what they've agreed upon as a team to pursue and clean up some of the conflicting double-talk surrounding the project's goals.

It seems that most people are in agreement that removing the offensive content from the base distribution would be a good idea, but that's by no means a unanimous opinion, and I don't know who holds how much sway in the project. Like I said before, I'm just a customer, I'm not a developer -- please only take my opinion for the data point that it is.

Yet, you have no problem with UT2004 which is for "general Western-culture consumption" and has more offensive content than OpenArena...

FWIW, I own UT and UT2004, and I actually do have issues with it. Like I've said, we used to play Unreal Tournament at our LAN parties, but then switched away for a number of reasons.

fromhell: You're right about WoP -- Padman is fairly counter-culture to Americans, and while I love the lilliputian perspective of the game, it sadly comes with that content by default, and so has remained on my list of rejected evaluated games. FWIW (in case you want to know why), the sexuality of the project is much more of a turn-off than the swearing (which goes over surprisingly smoothly as long as it's used in moderation). You said that Angelyss is not yet on the front page or used in any of the menus -- is it intended to stay that way? She has a fair bit of prominence in the galleries, and seems to be a popular model for feature screenshots. If she's everyone's favorite model (as she is yours), then I would guess it's only a matter of time before she starts replacing Kyonshi as the "face of OA." Even so, it seems that the women who have posted in this thread have agreed that they feel Angelyss is a misuse of the female form as is (for their aforementioned reasons).


Again, I feel bad for being such a pain in the neck, but for the sake of community cohesion, I think this is an important (albeit difficult) discussion. Thanks again for bearing with me!

Respectfully,
clint

[anyone]

(I just have a quick note about GTA, Postal and other games like Kingpin and Soldier of Fortune : The purpose of these games ARE to be violent and gross. I had the bad idea to buy Kingpin to find out it was a censored version, with violence striping, the game was jusst borring -- When I buy violent games, I WANT to have blood and guts. I'm afraid the problem is more about chosing a side of the fence and stick to it)

[dmn_clown]

Based on your response to him, I asked you as to who you intended OA to be played by, and was wondering if you were content with a niche market (such as Postal), or if you were hoping to see the game played by a wider audience.

OA is a "niche market."  It doesn't matter what we add, remove, or how great the game looks or doesn't look.  It will always be a "niche market."  Software Libre games and hobbiest freeware games cannot expect to be anything but a "niche market."

As an exercise start q3:a multiplayer, if you have a legal copy, and check the number of servers that are available for a seven year old game, 1549 servers (on my end at least) are shown running protocol 68.   OA currently has 66 total servers, an increase from 0.6, but still nothing when compared to 1549. 

OA will never have the fan base that q3:a has, no matter what lei, myself, or any of our contributers want.  Be realistic, at least...

Democratically (based on the number of other posters in this thread), it seems that the consensus would tend to agree with him on this point.

Postings in this thread, and this thread alone, hardly rate a majority of the users.  I count 5 people being vocal against this model, 6 if you include w1zrd's alter-ego/better-half that may or may not be w1zrd posting as a woman (its a judgement call).

It's true that I don't like pornography

Are you saying the angelyss model is pornography?

clean up some of the conflicting double-talk surrounding the project's goals.

What conflicting double-talk?  Those of us that contribute to this project have been honest and straight-forward about this.

[supermatic]

Again, I feel bad for being such a pain in the neck, but for the sake of community cohesion, I think this is an important (albeit difficult) discussion. Thanks again for bearing with me!

Respectfully,
clint

I do not understand. Can you explain why is it so important to you how one
model look like. Don't like girls?

[SnooSnoo]

Postings in this thread, and this thread alone, hardly rate a majority of the users.  I count 5 people being vocal against this model, 6 if you include w1zrd's alter-ego/better-half that may or may not be w1zrd posting as a woman (its a judgement call).

Hi, never ment to enter this discussion, but since you are after numbers I can be counted in that bunch. And for your information w1zrd's alter-ego/better-half is quite the nicest peson I've ever met. And she is a separate entity (i.e. she does very much exist).

[HanClinto]

for the sake of community cohesion, I think this is an important (albeit difficult) discussion.

I do not understand. Can you explain why is it so important to you how one model look like. Don't like girls?

Hi Supermatic!

I'm not sure how many times I can rehash the problem -- I feel like I've explained it so many times in this thread.

"one model"
First off, it's not one model. There are issues with 4 of the new 0.7 models, and more of this genre seem to be "in the pipe" so to speak. I'm asking about a larger issue, that of the guidelines for content, and the goals of the project.

Secondly, the problem is multi-fold, but the long and short of it is that many people (myself included) originally came to OA because it was one of the few games that was actually respectful of women in its content. A number of female gamers who I introduced to OA really appreciated this, and it was a huge breath of fresh air for many of them who had been so tired of the disrespect that they felt by being regarded as pieces of meat for adolescent male gamer's sex-doll fantasies. This is not a new issue -- the representation of women in games has been a subject of discussion in game development for a number of years, especially in recent years as video games are becoming more culturally accepted, and more girls are spending their time gaming. The market is changing, if we're going to stay on top of the wave, we need to be aware of this.

So yes -- I do happen to like girls. I also happen to respect them, which is something that I feel the latest content is failing to do.

OA is a "niche market."  It doesn't matter what we add, remove, or how great the game looks or doesn't look.  It will always be a "niche market."  Software Libre games and hobbiest freeware games cannot expect to be anything but a "niche market."

There's a difference between audience and customers -- let's not confuse the two.

I was talking about appeal -- who is the general market that you're appealing to? What is their demographic? 18-26 y/o males? Are you trying to make the game appeal to females? Are you trying to make it appeal to younger teens? Are you trying to make it appeal to older gamers? How many base customers do you want to start with? What are their values? What are their interests? What do they like?

What you were talking about is actual market share -- how much of the market do you actually acquire. When I used the phrase "niche market", I used it in the sense that a "niche market" means that your target customers are a very small pie, but you can have a larger piece (percentage-wise) because there aren't as many other products competing with you. A "general market" means that there are many more people fighting for pie, but it's a much bigger pie, so there's more to go around. In that sense, Just because OA is unpopular compared to Q3A doesn't mean that you're in a "niche market" -- it means that you've just currently got a smaller "market share."

Postings in this thread, and this thread alone, hardly rate a majority of the users.

It's true -- it's not an exhaustive sampling. It's just a handful of statistical data points -- take them for what they're worth.

Are you saying the angelyss model is pornography?

It all depends on your definition of the word. So I'll answer your question in that it seems to me that the Angelyss model's primary intent is to provide sexual arousal through visual stimulation. Some people (such as myself) use that definition for pornography (note that nudity is not necessarily required). In this sense, pictures of women wearing revealing lingerie or latex body paint (when no skin is technically visible) may be considered "pornography". You likely have a different definition -- that's fine, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

What conflicting double-talk?  Those of us that contribute to this project have been honest and straight-forward about this.

I was just referencing the inconsistency that I explained in my first post.


Thanks for bearing with me -- take care.

--clint

[Coconut_Kapow]

Please edit this BLATANTLY pornographic image out of your post immediately.

[dmn_clown]

"one model"
First off, it's not one model. There are issues with 4 of the new 0.7 models, and more of this genre seem to be "in the pipe" so to speak. I'm asking about a larger issue, that of the guidelines for content, and the goals of the project.

Don't be an idiot, you have an issue with two models and various skins because you feel they are disrespectful/pornography/whatever. Now, if these models ran around shoving weapons into their vulva or simulated coitus with other models I could see this argument holding weight, BUT THEY DON'T, they are not disrespectful, they are not pornography any more so than Michelangelo's David is pornography.

The disrespect and porn aspect that you continually iterate exist ONLY IN YOUR MIND.

Post a decent solution agreeable to all and/or submit better models and skins, or we'll ignore your request.  It is as simple as that.

[HanClinto]

Post a decent solution agreeable to all and/or submit better models and skins, or we'll ignore your request.  It is as simple as that.

I made one suggested course of action back when you originally asked for this, but I think that I like w1zrd's proposal the best.

I'd vote that we follow that one.

--clint

[fromhell]

This thread is depressing. It makes me feel I can't do what I want to do anymore. Isn't that what Free Software is about?

It's not like anybody is stopping you to make a 'safe' fork release. I shouldn't have to do anything about it, really. Guess those flashing 's and a split into a mature pak isn't working out after all.

[supermatic]

This thread is depressing. It makes me feel I can't do what I want to do anymore. Isn't that what Free Software is about?

You want be free? Isn't gonna work.



btw, nice game, i'm addicted to it

[HanClinto]

This thread is depressing. It makes me feel I can't do what I want to do anymore. Isn't that what Free Software is about?

I feel bad for depressing you, fromhell.

I'm a big fan of game development as a hobby -- it's one of my favorite things to do for fun. It's a great way to keep oneself educating, and I love the freedom to create -- programming is like playing with digital Lego blocks.


So I understand what a wet blanket like regulations does to one's creativity, and I don't want to stifle you with your favorite hobby. I'm just saying that if you continue to push content like this that is offensive to players, you're going to drive them away from your game. If you want more people to play your game, then you have to be aware of their interests and create accordingly. If you're more interested in making a game that is fun for you and you don't care if other people play it or help you make it, then by all means create whatever you want.

It's not like anybody is stopping you to make a 'safe' fork release. I shouldn't have to do anything about it, really.

It's true -- schism is sometimes a necessary (but painful) part of open-source development. I don't think anyone wants to leave OA -- it has a ton of support and momentum behind it, and I'm sure that everyone would like to see this concerted effort continue. Two coals burn brighter together than either one does alone.

We're trying to think of an acceptable solution that would continue to help it appeal to a general audience (so as to attract more players and developers), but also not stifle others. We're trying to find a good middle ground that everyone can in sign their name to and push forward as a community on a common project.

I think there's a lot of wisdom in W1zrd's suggestion -- you still keep your models, it's just a small separate download, it increases your potential fan base, and the cleanliness of the project makes hosting sites more willing to promote it to their ever-younger-audience. Do you see any plusses/minusses that you feel I missed?

Again, I don't want to manage this project -- this is y'alls show. If y'all honestly want me to leave you alone and just let you do your thing, if you tell me to shut up and just go away, then no problem. I'll pack up my pogs and go home.

I'm not a developer on this project, I'm just a fan.

--clint

[beast]

It's not like anybody is stopping you to make a 'safe' fork release.

I'll do that if it helps to resolve the issue. I understand both sides of the issue and would be more than happy to do the fork release if it makes everyone happy and allows everyone to get on with the future of the product.

[w1zrd]

OA will never have the fan base that q3:a has, no matter what lei, myself, or any of our contributers want.  Be realistic, at least...

The reasons to why Quake III grew as it did is due to some very simple facts:

• A) The game already had supporters from the Quake series.
• B) Tournaments and other competitions ensured that more players got intrested.
• C) They use QuakeNet for IRC, where thousands of players meet daily.
• D) Heavy advertisement and media coverage made sure it got publicity.

For Open Arena it might be that people that are used to FPS games find it that some of the maps may not be visually attractive nor playable to some extent, some models might be out of place or of offending nature to some, especially us parents or the community itself might be less talkative and open than others. But the people who love and support the Open Arena project are embracing the entire project and it's members with open arms, that's something that you won't see in Q3 for example as it is commercial and competitive.

 Myself, I don't see the reason behind having a gangster/amazon/lizard/spiderwoman/penguinman/merman/soldier/hopping corpse packed in as a single package, since there is no storyboard as to why nor a consistent theme behind them; but that is only my opinion, it is not an attempt to try and discard the entire project as I support this project and try to help in what matters I can. Things like this though, can make older/serious players and younger ones, male or female, want to leave the game, or not being allowed by parents to play it, maybe not even try it in the first place. If we keep adding random models and hundreds of maps we will end up with a 10.8 Gb download filled with completely random, but artistic contents, in version 1.0 of Open Arena. In my world it is generally quality before quantity when it comes to game, and game-related objects.

 So, a few questions out of interest:
Q: What is the target audience for Open Arena? Are they 8-14, 17-25 or are they 25-35 maybe even older?
Q: What is the concept behind Open Arena? Is it to make an replica of Q3 but which is built under GPL license, or am I wrong?
Q: What is the art-direction concept behind Open Arena really?

On the last question the answer would be: Anime (which people thought was an aprils joke implementation for OA) but does the characters in the game follow anime style as of 0.7? Mind me for my ignorance but I come from the western culture and my knowledge of Anime and Manga is very limited, obviously. This is however what I found from a wiki:

Character Designs

Unlike Western animation, a large majority of characters are designed with a more precise set of guidelines. The height of the head is considered as the base unit of proportion. Head heights can vary as long as the remainder of the body remain proportional. The average human character is roughly seven "heads" tall. Variations to proportion are modded to allow chibi or super deformed characters, which features a non-proportionally small body compared to the head. Some anime works like Crayon Shin-chan completely disregard these proportions. It is enough such that it resembles a Western cartoon.

A common approach is the large eyes style drawn on many anime and manga characters, credited to the influence of Osamu Tezuka, who was inspired by the exaggerated features of American cartoon characters such as Betty Boop, Mickey Mouse, and Disney's Bambi. Tezuka found that large eyes style allowed his characters to show emotions distinctly. Cultural anthropologist Matt Thorn argues that Japanese animators and audiences do not perceive such stylized eyes as inherently more or less foreign. When Tezuka began drawing Ribbon no Kishi, the first manga specifically targeted at young girls, Tezuka further exaggerated the size of the characters' eyes. Indeed, through Ribbon no Kishi, Tezuka set a stylistic template that later shōjo artists tended to follow.

However, not all anime have large eyes. For example Hayao Miyazaki is known for not having large eyes and having realistic hair colors on his characters. In addition other productions also have been known to use smaller eyes. This design tends to have more resemblance to traditional Japanese art.

 As far as the completely random, but very artistic, content of models goes, that's a different issue and reading DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/PlayerMDLs]the ideas here almost scares the h**l out of me, even if it's supposed to be a parody of Q3's characters. It tells me that if I want to make my own non-copyrighted version of these, they could be included since it shows a genuine and unique style as never seen before in OA, anime or not? There are characters like this, this, this and this and they would, again in my opinion, fit the game fine if now the Open Arena project is based on a Anime theme style.

Postings in this thread, and this thread alone, hardly rate a majority of the users.

They are opinions and should be taken for what they are worth nevertheless.

I count 5 people being vocal against this model, 6 if you include w1zrd's alter-ego/better-half that may or may not be w1zrd posting as a woman (its a judgement call).

If you like witch-hunts you may want to suspect every member of the OA community to be of multiple sexes, by all means. Someone could indeed be a man, or a 18 year old woman posing as the other; it all comes down to your own beliefs (and forum-backlogs on other forums pre-dated 2005). But look -- there ARE women playing Open Arena, so they do exist.

 But dmn_clown, for your information so that you can sleep at night: I am a 30 year old man engaged with a wonderful woman and I intend to keep it that way.

This thread is depressing. It makes me feel I can't do what I want to do anymore. Isn't that what Free Software is about?

This thread has nothing to do with what you (or the contributors) can do, or not. This thread has voiced the opinions of less than a handful players of the game who praises the game, but does not agree with the mature content being exposed in the manner that it currently is. The first post included this:

This is not an issue of cg_forcemodels=1 so much as it's an issue of distributing this content to youth groups, when parents are already leery of video games and concerned with the content that their kids are playing. Me telling them to download the game for the next party and seeing the image gallery plastered with topless women does not go over well.

It is a matter of constructive criticism and attempts to improve the game in ways to make it friendlier to the kids playing the game and people who feel that some contents may be unsuitable. It is therefore a discussion and it should not prevent you from working on it.

I wouldn't sell my company because some of my employees doesn't like the wallpaper, I would find a solution for it instead.

The reason for so few "votes" against some of the content in the game, or other "issues", is because people generally are afraid of getting involved in these types discussions because they get hammered down if they open their mouth, hence the I-dont-want-to-get-involved attitude from many. Also many of OA's users are non-native english speakers (myself included) and comments made are easily misunderstood.

The forums are not heavily used for discussions, they are usually channelled through IRC (not on the official #openarena though) or in the game itself. Many Open Arena players do not even know that this forum, or the IRC channels exist, and that is a fact, a fact that we need to change.

Comments like:

Don't like girls?

and:

Please edit this BLATANTLY pornographic image out of your post immediately.

Are pure stupid and add nothing of value to the discussion. It's like insinuating that the previous poster would be a homosexual for having an opinion or saying openly that tits corrupt our youth out of sarcasm, but that's another chapter.

I've had enough of this pissing contents and random sarcasm, wake me up when something constructive comes along.
After all, we all want what's best for the community and the project unless I'm mistaken.