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Author Topic: Some map in cut content/dummied out are actually good  (Read 23831 times)
Marterzon
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« on: December 04, 2014, 04:51:36 PM »

(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Cut_Content#Dummied_out

Maps like:
q3dm6ish
dm4ish
am galmevish

is not bad, although with the exception of am galmevish of having the second version, it is still nice to play.

To be honest with you, something like dm4ish and q3dm6ish should be entered in OA3 as regular map that can be seen in skimish or SP because people really prefer the map to be designed good and the texture is not too much to worry about actually.
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2014, 06:28:17 PM »

(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Cut_Content#Dummied_out

Maps like:
q3dm6ish
dm4ish
am galmevish

is not bad, although with the exception of am galmevish of having the second version, it is still nice to play.

To be honest with you, something like dm4ish and q3dm6ish should be entered in OA3 as regular map that can be seen in skimish or SP because people really prefer the map to be designed good and the texture is not too much to worry about actually.

I personally hate Q3dm6ish, due the reason being "ish". It's based on a great map but never will be a great map; especially which such flow and horrible looks.
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fromhell
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2014, 08:31:59 PM »

The main reason they are cut are because they'll be separated to a tribute pack, and two of those maps are very low quality.
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2014, 02:31:42 AM »

As Fromhell said, in OA3, Quake tribute maps will be in a separate download.
About q3dm6ish in particular, it may be nice if someone (who?) may create a better version of it. 0.8.x version looks quite ugly, at least proper lighting (and retexturing?) would be welcome. Maybe, making it a bit bigger may be good, too...
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Marterzon
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2014, 05:17:53 PM »

The main reason they are cut are because they'll be separated to a tribute pack, and two of those maps are very low quality.

Well it would be nicer if someone could step up and improve the overall quality of the map, while not changing it too much... I think that's possible.

(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Cut_Content#Dummied_out

Maps like:
q3dm6ish
dm4ish
am galmevish

is not bad, although with the exception of am galmevish of having the second version, it is still nice to play.

To be honest with you, something like dm4ish and q3dm6ish should be entered in OA3 as regular map that can be seen in skimish or SP because people really prefer the map to be designed good and the texture is not too much to worry about actually.

I personally hate Q3dm6ish, due the reason being "ish". It's based on a great map but never will be a great map; especially which such flow and horrible looks.
As Fromhell said, in OA3, Quake tribute maps will be in a separate download.
About q3dm6ish in particular, it may be nice if someone (who?) may create a better version of it. 0.8.x version looks quite ugly, at least proper lighting (and retexturing?) would be welcome. Maybe, making it a bit bigger may be good, too...

I agree it would be better if there is proper lighting, retexturing and a bit bigger, although I may like little change to the design. Also it's fine by you if you don't like the ish reason of the map, it's not everyone taste anyway, but fine by me.

Beside though, I could set up if I knew mapping and has the program, but I don't now and I wanted to go into mapping but I have trouble installing GTKRadient it via Debian Testing. I followed the instruction on the wiki page, but it is not successful.

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fromhell
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2014, 06:09:51 PM »

The maps were originally made with regard to Quake scale which is smaller, and they were also originally done in Qoole which have notoriously messy brush output so they'd have to be redone from scratch.
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
Progress of OA3 currently occurs behind closed doors alone

I do not provide technical support either.

new code development on github
Marterzon
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2014, 09:01:07 AM »

The maps were originally made with regard to Quake scale which is smaller, and they were also originally done in Qoole which have notoriously messy brush output so they'd have to be redone from scratch.

Ergh, messed up brush output, no wounder why the maps looked ugly. Anyway I would want to help, but I just cannot install GTKRadient in my Debian Testing GNU/Linux machine, could there be another more updated tutorials?
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2014, 11:20:07 AM »

Quote
Anyway I would want to help, but I just cannot install GTKRadient in my Debian Testing GNU/Linux machine, could there be another more updated tutorials?
You may have greater success looking for NetRadiant. It is based on the older GtkRadiant 1.5 but is much easier to compile and get to run.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2014, 08:26:24 PM »

Another reason of why they're cut (and why OA3 is being made) is that we don't want to be anymore the punching bag of free FPS games. Those maps made the game to look bad.
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Marterzon
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2014, 05:20:13 AM »

Another reason of why they're cut (and why OA3 is being made) is that we don't want to be anymore the punching bag of free FPS games. Those maps made the game to look bad.

I can see why OA3 is going to look and feel much more different than Q3A; to show that it wasn't just a free software copy-like. Those maps will need to be redone anyway, they looked horrible, although IMO they played good/fine. Those map just need a redo in looks and better looking layout, like the stairs in those maps are often too steep or there are not much variant of good textures. Beside though, I can see why they are pushed out, but at least people need to recognize that they need something to be done.

Quote
Anyway I would want to help, but I just cannot install GTKRadient in my Debian Testing GNU/Linux machine, could there be another more updated tutorials?
You may have greater success looking for NetRadiant. It is based on the older GtkRadiant 1.5 but is much easier to compile and get to run.

I'll look at NetRadiant then, I have managed to get GtkRadiant running, it seemed the textures seemed not loaded...
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« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2014, 07:31:52 AM »

Another reason of why they're cut (and why OA3 is being made) is that we don't want to be anymore the punching bag of free FPS games. Those maps made the game to look bad.

I can see why OA3 is going to look and feel much more different than Q3A; to show that it wasn't just a free software copy-like. Those maps will need to be redone anyway, they looked horrible, although IMO they played good/fine. Those map just need a redo in looks and better looking layout, like the stairs in those maps are often too steep or there are not much variant of good textures. Beside though, I can see why they are pushed out, but at least people need to recognize that they need something to be done.

Quote
Anyway I would want to help, but I just cannot install GTKRadient in my Debian Testing GNU/Linux machine, could there be another more updated tutorials?
You may have greater success looking for NetRadiant. It is based on the older GtkRadiant 1.5 but is much easier to compile and get to run.

I'll look at NetRadiant then, I have managed to get GtkRadiant running, it seemed the textures seemed not loaded...

I rather would suggest to start from scratch and create your own layout (and in the end , map) than trying to fix some horrific attempt to be a remake of some good maps. The chance you'll succeed in the same time as if you would start your very own map is considerably small. So just forget maps with "ish" and make your own which maybe inspires other mappers to use as a base for their work.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 07:38:37 AM by Suicizer » Logged

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Marterzon
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« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2014, 08:21:22 AM »

Another reason of why they're cut (and why OA3 is being made) is that we don't want to be anymore the punching bag of free FPS games. Those maps made the game to look bad.

I can see why OA3 is going to look and feel much more different than Q3A; to show that it wasn't just a free software copy-like. Those maps will need to be redone anyway, they looked horrible, although IMO they played good/fine. Those map just need a redo in looks and better looking layout, like the stairs in those maps are often too steep or there are not much variant of good textures. Beside though, I can see why they are pushed out, but at least people need to recognize that they need something to be done.

Quote
Anyway I would want to help, but I just cannot install GTKRadient in my Debian Testing GNU/Linux machine, could there be another more updated tutorials?
You may have greater success looking for NetRadiant. It is based on the older GtkRadiant 1.5 but is much easier to compile and get to run.

I'll look at NetRadiant then, I have managed to get GtkRadiant running, it seemed the textures seemed not loaded...

I rather would suggest to start from scratch and create your own layout (and in the end , map) than trying to fix some horrific attempt to be a remake of some good maps. The chance you'll succeed in the same time as if you would start your very own map is considerably small. So just forget maps with "ish" and make your own which maybe inspires other mappers to use as a base for their work.

Huh. well OK, I got a map layout in mind that is not those that had been done in Quake 3/OpenArena but from the map I did in Counter Strike: fy_rampline -> ctf_rampline
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2014, 08:25:01 PM »

Another reason of why they're cut (and why OA3 is being made) is that we don't want to be anymore the punching bag of free FPS games. Those maps made the game to look bad.

I can see why OA3 is going to look and feel much more different than Q3A; to show that it wasn't just a free software copy-like. Those maps will need to be redone anyway, they looked horrible, although IMO they played good/fine. Those map just need a redo in looks and better looking layout, like the stairs in those maps are often too steep or there are not much variant of good textures. Beside though, I can see why they are pushed out, but at least people need to recognize that they need something to be done.

Quote
Anyway I would want to help, but I just cannot install GTKRadient in my Debian Testing GNU/Linux machine, could there be another more updated tutorials?
You may have greater success looking for NetRadiant. It is based on the older GtkRadiant 1.5 but is much easier to compile and get to run.

I'll look at NetRadiant then, I have managed to get GtkRadiant running, it seemed the textures seemed not loaded...

I rather would suggest to start from scratch and create your own layout (and in the end , map) than trying to fix some horrific attempt to be a remake of some good maps. The chance you'll succeed in the same time as if you would start your very own map is considerably small. So just forget maps with "ish" and make your own which maybe inspires other mappers to use as a base for their work.
I've spent most of my early OA mapping days proving how wrong the whole "maps suck forever period" thing is in GPLv2-based game design. So far, some of my results were these:

- czest1dmv2 (currently in 0.8.8 as just czest1dm)
- czest1tourney
- dm4ishv2 (new D/L link)
- hydronex2 (currently in 0.8.8 ), also hydronex3 (topic 1 - topic 2)
- oa_bases3plus3 (previously dummied out, 0.8.8 is the first properly playable version of that map)
- oa_dm1v2 and oa_dm5v2 (the latter became a collaboration with kit89, here's a new link for my solo effort and another for the collab, also new link for oa_dm5)
- q3dm6ishv3 (D/L link for pre-remake, D/L link for scratch-based remake)

The point of all of the above? Although the whole "maps will suck forever" may apply regarding closed-source mapping (the whole "you may not distribute modified copies/modify the map(s)/etc") with GPLv2 is totally different. You ARE expected and encouraged to take something and improve it without the need of the original author's consent. This is why I still map for OA, as I do like such a concept (even though a lot of mappers don't feel the same way) and I want to make the game better. In fact, thanks to OA, I have even found out how much I really like to map and I have even learnt how to map properly with all the research I did in order to improve in this area.

Now if only I could regain some of the patience and motivation to map I've lost in the way...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 09:08:42 PM by Neon_Knight » Logged


"Detailed" is nice, but if it gets in the way of clarity, it ceases being a nice addition and becomes a problem. - TVT
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Marterzon
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« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2014, 05:17:36 PM »

Another reason of why they're cut (and why OA3 is being made) is that we don't want to be anymore the punching bag of free FPS games. Those maps made the game to look bad.

I can see why OA3 is going to look and feel much more different than Q3A; to show that it wasn't just a free software copy-like. Those maps will need to be redone anyway, they looked horrible, although IMO they played good/fine. Those map just need a redo in looks and better looking layout, like the stairs in those maps are often too steep or there are not much variant of good textures. Beside though, I can see why they are pushed out, but at least people need to recognize that they need something to be done.

Quote
Anyway I would want to help, but I just cannot install GTKRadient in my Debian Testing GNU/Linux machine, could there be another more updated tutorials?
You may have greater success looking for NetRadiant. It is based on the older GtkRadiant 1.5 but is much easier to compile and get to run.

I'll look at NetRadiant then, I have managed to get GtkRadiant running, it seemed the textures seemed not loaded...

I rather would suggest to start from scratch and create your own layout (and in the end , map) than trying to fix some horrific attempt to be a remake of some good maps. The chance you'll succeed in the same time as if you would start your very own map is considerably small. So just forget maps with "ish" and make your own which maybe inspires other mappers to use as a base for their work.
I've spent most of my early OA mapping days proving how wrong the whole "maps suck forever period" thing is in GPLv2-based game design. So far, some of my results were these:

- czest1dmv2 (currently in 0.8.8 as just czest1dm)
- czest1tourney
- dm4ishv2 (new D/L link)
- hydronex2 (currently in 0.8.8 ), also hydronex3 (topic 1 - topic 2)
- oa_bases3plus3 (previously dummied out, 0.8.8 is the first properly playable version of that map)
- oa_dm1v2 and oa_dm5v2 (the latter became a collaboration with kit89, here's a new link for my solo effort and another for the collab, also new link for oa_dm5)
- q3dm6ishv3 (D/L link for pre-remake, D/L link for scratch-based remake)

The point of all of the above? Although the whole "maps will suck forever" may apply regarding closed-source mapping (the whole "you may not distribute modified copies/modify the map(s)/etc") with GPLv2 is totally different. You ARE expected and encouraged to take something and improve it without the need of the original author's consent. This is why I still map for OA, as I do like such a concept (even though a lot of mappers don't feel the same way) and I want to make the game better. In fact, thanks to OA, I have even found out how much I really like to map and I have even learnt how to map properly with all the research I did in order to improve in this area.

Now if only I could regain some of the patience and motivation to map I've lost in the way...

Well I would like to map anyway, although I need time and patient to learn anyway, so good luck to me and you to regain the patience and motivation. After all, Richard Stallman's idea of free software and their license GPLv2, v3 etc. benefits the working community as a whole, games in this way improves within the community, and for the community to survive, the community have to develop good, improving and interesting stuff in order to thrive and benefit it's own creation. I think if we managed to finished OA3 in 2015 and has at least 10 working every week, then it would rebuild our community once for all, but right now, it's just a Q3A free free game software clone...
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2014, 05:08:01 AM »

Yeah, I want to go back to mapping, as things have really improved in the last months and at least I can map without interruptions. Then, I remember all the work I have to finish (OACMPv1, OACMPv2, mapping manual, OA3 maps) and my motivation suddenly wants to dissappear. -.-
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fromhell
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2014, 07:18:31 AM »

I also want to try mapping as I have some thematic ideas to try out
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
Progress of OA3 currently occurs behind closed doors alone

I do not provide technical support either.

new code development on github
Neon_Knight
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2014, 08:43:52 AM »

Another reason of why they're cut (and why OA3 is being made) is that we don't want to be anymore the punching bag of free FPS games. Those maps made the game to look bad.

I can see why OA3 is going to look and feel much more different than Q3A; to show that it wasn't just a free software copy-like. Those maps will need to be redone anyway, they looked horrible, although IMO they played good/fine. Those map just need a redo in looks and better looking layout, like the stairs in those maps are often too steep or there are not much variant of good textures. Beside though, I can see why they are pushed out, but at least people need to recognize that they need something to be done.

Quote
Anyway I would want to help, but I just cannot install GTKRadient in my Debian Testing GNU/Linux machine, could there be another more updated tutorials?
You may have greater success looking for NetRadiant. It is based on the older GtkRadiant 1.5 but is much easier to compile and get to run.

I'll look at NetRadiant then, I have managed to get GtkRadiant running, it seemed the textures seemed not loaded...

I rather would suggest to start from scratch and create your own layout (and in the end , map) than trying to fix some horrific attempt to be a remake of some good maps. The chance you'll succeed in the same time as if you would start your very own map is considerably small. So just forget maps with "ish" and make your own which maybe inspires other mappers to use as a base for their work.
I've spent most of my early OA mapping days proving how wrong the whole "maps suck forever period" thing is in GPLv2-based game design. So far, some of my results were these:

- czest1dmv2 (currently in 0.8.8 as just czest1dm)
- czest1tourney
- dm4ishv2 (new D/L link)
- hydronex2 (currently in 0.8.8 ), also hydronex3 (topic 1 - topic 2)
- oa_bases3plus3 (previously dummied out, 0.8.8 is the first properly playable version of that map)
- oa_dm1v2 and oa_dm5v2 (the latter became a collaboration with kit89, here's a new link for my solo effort and another for the collab, also new link for oa_dm5)
- q3dm6ishv3 (D/L link for pre-remake, D/L link for scratch-based remake)

The point of all of the above? Although the whole "maps will suck forever" may apply regarding closed-source mapping (the whole "you may not distribute modified copies/modify the map(s)/etc") with GPLv2 is totally different. You ARE expected and encouraged to take something and improve it without the need of the original author's consent. This is why I still map for OA, as I do like such a concept (even though a lot of mappers don't feel the same way) and I want to make the game better. In fact, thanks to OA, I have even found out how much I really like to map and I have even learnt how to map properly with all the research I did in order to improve in this area.

Now if only I could regain some of the patience and motivation to map I've lost in the way...

Well I would like to map anyway, although I need time and patient to learn anyway, so good luck to me and you to regain the patience and motivation. After all, Richard Stallman's idea of free software and their license GPLv2, v3 etc. benefits the working community as a whole, games in this way improves within the community, and for the community to survive, the community have to develop good, improving and interesting stuff in order to thrive and benefit it's own creation. I think if we managed to finished OA3 in 2015 and has at least 10 working every week, then it would rebuild our community once for all, but right now, it's just a Q3A free free game software clone...
Well, yeah, but most players and developers have problems with OA which have nothing to do with the tools but more with the principles behind OA's existence.

Developers dislike GPLv2 (mostly mappers) because they're very zealous over their creations and don't want nobody to modify or distribute them (GPLv2 requires access to the source of the assets in order to fulfill the four freedoms). There's also the fact that OA is based on an old engine, and some devs just want to work on a modern engine.

Players dislike that OA isn't another serious/grim/dark/gritty game (a Quake clone content-wise) or that isn't a game where they can lower everything to the lowest settings for high visibility. In the worst cases, they dislike OA because it isn't an elite-only game where only seasoned players can enjoy it (this spawned two recent forks which ended up as huge failures because of this narrowed scope). Another group dislike OA because it isn't a military shooter, another because of graphics, and another one dislike OA just because dislike itself. While I don't give a single damn about these three latter groups (am I missing another group?) part of my motivation was lost because of the ungratefulness shown by the former two player groups.

Also, trying to cater to many of these groups involves OA betraying its own identity and development rules, something we have already decided not to do.

It's a lot more complex than it seems. And I'm having a good day, so I don't really want to search for forum threads and get my day to waste.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 08:47:53 AM by Neon_Knight » Logged


"Detailed" is nice, but if it gets in the way of clarity, it ceases being a nice addition and becomes a problem. - TVT
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Marterzon
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2014, 11:09:26 AM »

Another reason of why they're cut (and why OA3 is being made) is that we don't want to be anymore the punching bag of free FPS games. Those maps made the game to look bad.

I can see why OA3 is going to look and feel much more different than Q3A; to show that it wasn't just a free software copy-like. Those maps will need to be redone anyway, they looked horrible, although IMO they played good/fine. Those map just need a redo in looks and better looking layout, like the stairs in those maps are often too steep or there are not much variant of good textures. Beside though, I can see why they are pushed out, but at least people need to recognize that they need something to be done.

Quote
Anyway I would want to help, but I just cannot install GTKRadient in my Debian Testing GNU/Linux machine, could there be another more updated tutorials?
You may have greater success looking for NetRadiant. It is based on the older GtkRadiant 1.5 but is much easier to compile and get to run.

I'll look at NetRadiant then, I have managed to get GtkRadiant running, it seemed the textures seemed not loaded...

I rather would suggest to start from scratch and create your own layout (and in the end , map) than trying to fix some horrific attempt to be a remake of some good maps. The chance you'll succeed in the same time as if you would start your very own map is considerably small. So just forget maps with "ish" and make your own which maybe inspires other mappers to use as a base for their work.
I've spent most of my early OA mapping days proving how wrong the whole "maps suck forever period" thing is in GPLv2-based game design. So far, some of my results were these:

- czest1dmv2 (currently in 0.8.8 as just czest1dm)
- czest1tourney
- dm4ishv2 (new D/L link)
- hydronex2 (currently in 0.8.8 ), also hydronex3 (topic 1 - topic 2)
- oa_bases3plus3 (previously dummied out, 0.8.8 is the first properly playable version of that map)
- oa_dm1v2 and oa_dm5v2 (the latter became a collaboration with kit89, here's a new link for my solo effort and another for the collab, also new link for oa_dm5)
- q3dm6ishv3 (D/L link for pre-remake, D/L link for scratch-based remake)

The point of all of the above? Although the whole "maps will suck forever" may apply regarding closed-source mapping (the whole "you may not distribute modified copies/modify the map(s)/etc") with GPLv2 is totally different. You ARE expected and encouraged to take something and improve it without the need of the original author's consent. This is why I still map for OA, as I do like such a concept (even though a lot of mappers don't feel the same way) and I want to make the game better. In fact, thanks to OA, I have even found out how much I really like to map and I have even learnt how to map properly with all the research I did in order to improve in this area.

Now if only I could regain some of the patience and motivation to map I've lost in the way...

Well I would like to map anyway, although I need time and patient to learn anyway, so good luck to me and you to regain the patience and motivation. After all, Richard Stallman's idea of free software and their license GPLv2, v3 etc. benefits the working community as a whole, games in this way improves within the community, and for the community to survive, the community have to develop good, improving and interesting stuff in order to thrive and benefit it's own creation. I think if we managed to finished OA3 in 2015 and has at least 10 working every week, then it would rebuild our community once for all, but right now, it's just a Q3A free free game software clone...
Well, yeah, but most players and developers have problems with OA which have nothing to do with the tools but more with the principles behind OA's existence.

Developers dislike GPLv2 (mostly mappers) because they're very zealous over their creations and don't want nobody to modify or distribute them (GPLv2 requires access to the source of the assets in order to fulfill the four freedoms). There's also the fact that OA is based on an old engine, and some devs just want to work on a modern engine.

Players dislike that OA isn't another serious/grim/dark/gritty game (a Quake clone content-wise) or that isn't a game where they can lower everything to the lowest settings for high visibility. In the worst cases, they dislike OA because it isn't an elite-only game where only seasoned players can enjoy it (this spawned two recent forks which ended up as huge failures because of this narrowed scope). Another group dislike OA because it isn't a military shooter, another because of graphics, and another one dislike OA just because dislike itself. While I don't give a single damn about these three latter groups (am I missing another group?) part of my motivation was lost because of the ungratefulness shown by the former two player groups.

Also, trying to cater to many of these groups involves OA betraying its own identity and development rules, something we have already decided not to do.

It's a lot more complex than it seems. And I'm having a good day, so I don't really want to search for forum threads and get my day to waste.

Well... this have to be a very sticky situation for OA then... I can see it being less popular and praised on that other game using ioquake/using source code from Quake 3, it of course been trampled by those groups but also for people who just wants to play games without charge, then that is lost because of Quake Live. OpenArena is at it's edge to being dead if there is nothing sorted out and the sort out is OpenArena 3, but it's more of a matter of effort and time put into to rebuild OpenArena and has it's identity as a more respected game again. To keep everything under GPLv2, try to please audience and being it own identity is hard work, but after all, as I said, it's up to people contributing to OA and the community's response and attitude towards OA, not the dislikers, we can have many dislikers, but that still should not be effecting OA's style and contribution since it's not in our region. Beside though, I though an idea that I taken from CS:GO; split casual and competitive, although I still don't know if this will work or not and could just be left out and cut out, but someone should take note of that for OA3.

As for me mapping, I'll slowly try out tutorials and try to make maps with a fair and good layout.

Yeah, I want to go back to mapping, as things have really improved in the last months and at least I can map without interruptions. Then, I remember all the work I have to finish (OACMPv1, OACMPv2, mapping manual, OA3 maps) and my motivation suddenly wants to dissappear. -.-

Hmm, you don't really need to finish them works and you can just leave it to someone else because it's under GPLv2, so you can try doing mapping again if you could.

I also want to try mapping as I have some thematic ideas to try out

Well what thematic ideas you wanted to try out?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 11:12:16 AM by Marterzon » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2014, 12:45:45 PM »

Another reason of why they're cut (and why OA3 is being made) is that we don't want to be anymore the punching bag of free FPS games. Those maps made the game to look bad.

I can see why OA3 is going to look and feel much more different than Q3A; to show that it wasn't just a free software copy-like. Those maps will need to be redone anyway, they looked horrible, although IMO they played good/fine. Those map just need a redo in looks and better looking layout, like the stairs in those maps are often too steep or there are not much variant of good textures. Beside though, I can see why they are pushed out, but at least people need to recognize that they need something to be done.

Quote
Anyway I would want to help, but I just cannot install GTKRadient in my Debian Testing GNU/Linux machine, could there be another more updated tutorials?
You may have greater success looking for NetRadiant. It is based on the older GtkRadiant 1.5 but is much easier to compile and get to run.

I'll look at NetRadiant then, I have managed to get GtkRadiant running, it seemed the textures seemed not loaded...

I rather would suggest to start from scratch and create your own layout (and in the end , map) than trying to fix some horrific attempt to be a remake of some good maps. The chance you'll succeed in the same time as if you would start your very own map is considerably small. So just forget maps with "ish" and make your own which maybe inspires other mappers to use as a base for their work.
I've spent most of my early OA mapping days proving how wrong the whole "maps suck forever period" thing is in GPLv2-based game design. So far, some of my results were these:

- czest1dmv2 (currently in 0.8.8 as just czest1dm)
- czest1tourney
- dm4ishv2 (new D/L link)
- hydronex2 (currently in 0.8.8 ), also hydronex3 (topic 1 - topic 2)
- oa_bases3plus3 (previously dummied out, 0.8.8 is the first properly playable version of that map)
- oa_dm1v2 and oa_dm5v2 (the latter became a collaboration with kit89, here's a new link for my solo effort and another for the collab, also new link for oa_dm5)
- q3dm6ishv3 (D/L link for pre-remake, D/L link for scratch-based remake)

The point of all of the above? Although the whole "maps will suck forever" may apply regarding closed-source mapping (the whole "you may not distribute modified copies/modify the map(s)/etc") with GPLv2 is totally different. You ARE expected and encouraged to take something and improve it without the need of the original author's consent. This is why I still map for OA, as I do like such a concept (even though a lot of mappers don't feel the same way) and I want to make the game better. In fact, thanks to OA, I have even found out how much I really like to map and I have even learnt how to map properly with all the research I did in order to improve in this area.

Now if only I could regain some of the patience and motivation to map I've lost in the way...

Well I would like to map anyway, although I need time and patient to learn anyway, so good luck to me and you to regain the patience and motivation. After all, Richard Stallman's idea of free software and their license GPLv2, v3 etc. benefits the working community as a whole, games in this way improves within the community, and for the community to survive, the community have to develop good, improving and interesting stuff in order to thrive and benefit it's own creation. I think if we managed to finished OA3 in 2015 and has at least 10 working every week, then it would rebuild our community once for all, but right now, it's just a Q3A free free game software clone...
Well, yeah, but most players and developers have problems with OA which have nothing to do with the tools but more with the principles behind OA's existence.

Developers dislike GPLv2 (mostly mappers) because they're very zealous over their creations and don't want nobody to modify or distribute them (GPLv2 requires access to the source of the assets in order to fulfill the four freedoms). There's also the fact that OA is based on an old engine, and some devs just want to work on a modern engine.

Players dislike that OA isn't another serious/grim/dark/gritty game (a Quake clone content-wise) or that isn't a game where they can lower everything to the lowest settings for high visibility. In the worst cases, they dislike OA because it isn't an elite-only game where only seasoned players can enjoy it (this spawned two recent forks which ended up as huge failures because of this narrowed scope). Another group dislike OA because it isn't a military shooter, another because of graphics, and another one dislike OA just because dislike itself. While I don't give a single damn about these three latter groups (am I missing another group?) part of my motivation was lost because of the ungratefulness shown by the former two player groups.

Also, trying to cater to many of these groups involves OA betraying its own identity and development rules, something we have already decided not to do.

It's a lot more complex than it seems. And I'm having a good day, so I don't really want to search for forum threads and get my day to waste.

Well... this have to be a very sticky situation for OA then... I can see it being less popular and praised on that other game using ioquake/using source code from Quake 3, it of course been trampled by those groups but also for people who just wants to play games without charge, then that is lost because of Quake Live. OpenArena is at it's edge to being dead if there is nothing sorted out and the sort out is OpenArena 3, but it's more of a matter of effort and time put into to rebuild OpenArena and has it's identity as a more respected game again. To keep everything under GPLv2, try to please audience and being it own identity is hard work, but after all, as I said, it's up to people contributing to OA and the community's response and attitude towards OA, not the dislikers, we can have many dislikers, but that still should not be effecting OA's style and contribution since it's not in our region. Beside though, I though an idea that I taken from CS:GO; split casual and competitive, although I still don't know if this will work or not and could just be left out and cut out, but someone should take note of that for OA3.

As for me mapping, I'll slowly try out tutorials and try to make maps with a fair and good layout.

Yeah, I want to go back to mapping, as things have really improved in the last months and at least I can map without interruptions. Then, I remember all the work I have to finish (OACMPv1, OACMPv2, mapping manual, OA3 maps) and my motivation suddenly wants to dissappear. -.-

Hmm, you don't really need to finish them works and you can just leave it to someone else because it's under GPLv2, so you can try doing mapping again if you could.

I also want to try mapping as I have some thematic ideas to try out

Well what thematic ideas you wanted to try out?
Its a good thing the content of OA get's some serious attention after al these years.
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Marterzon
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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2014, 04:49:07 PM »

Another reason of why they're cut (and why OA3 is being made) is that we don't want to be anymore the punching bag of free FPS games. Those maps made the game to look bad.

I can see why OA3 is going to look and feel much more different than Q3A; to show that it wasn't just a free software copy-like. Those maps will need to be redone anyway, they looked horrible, although IMO they played good/fine. Those map just need a redo in looks and better looking layout, like the stairs in those maps are often too steep or there are not much variant of good textures. Beside though, I can see why they are pushed out, but at least people need to recognize that they need something to be done.

Quote
Anyway I would want to help, but I just cannot install GTKRadient in my Debian Testing GNU/Linux machine, could there be another more updated tutorials?
You may have greater success looking for NetRadiant. It is based on the older GtkRadiant 1.5 but is much easier to compile and get to run.

I'll look at NetRadiant then, I have managed to get GtkRadiant running, it seemed the textures seemed not loaded...

I rather would suggest to start from scratch and create your own layout (and in the end , map) than trying to fix some horrific attempt to be a remake of some good maps. The chance you'll succeed in the same time as if you would start your very own map is considerably small. So just forget maps with "ish" and make your own which maybe inspires other mappers to use as a base for their work.
I've spent most of my early OA mapping days proving how wrong the whole "maps suck forever period" thing is in GPLv2-based game design. So far, some of my results were these:

- czest1dmv2 (currently in 0.8.8 as just czest1dm)
- czest1tourney
- dm4ishv2 (new D/L link)
- hydronex2 (currently in 0.8.8 ), also hydronex3 (topic 1 - topic 2)
- oa_bases3plus3 (previously dummied out, 0.8.8 is the first properly playable version of that map)
- oa_dm1v2 and oa_dm5v2 (the latter became a collaboration with kit89, here's a new link for my solo effort and another for the collab, also new link for oa_dm5)
- q3dm6ishv3 (D/L link for pre-remake, D/L link for scratch-based remake)

The point of all of the above? Although the whole "maps will suck forever" may apply regarding closed-source mapping (the whole "you may not distribute modified copies/modify the map(s)/etc") with GPLv2 is totally different. You ARE expected and encouraged to take something and improve it without the need of the original author's consent. This is why I still map for OA, as I do like such a concept (even though a lot of mappers don't feel the same way) and I want to make the game better. In fact, thanks to OA, I have even found out how much I really like to map and I have even learnt how to map properly with all the research I did in order to improve in this area.

Now if only I could regain some of the patience and motivation to map I've lost in the way...

Well I would like to map anyway, although I need time and patient to learn anyway, so good luck to me and you to regain the patience and motivation. After all, Richard Stallman's idea of free software and their license GPLv2, v3 etc. benefits the working community as a whole, games in this way improves within the community, and for the community to survive, the community have to develop good, improving and interesting stuff in order to thrive and benefit it's own creation. I think if we managed to finished OA3 in 2015 and has at least 10 working every week, then it would rebuild our community once for all, but right now, it's just a Q3A free free game software clone...
Well, yeah, but most players and developers have problems with OA which have nothing to do with the tools but more with the principles behind OA's existence.

Developers dislike GPLv2 (mostly mappers) because they're very zealous over their creations and don't want nobody to modify or distribute them (GPLv2 requires access to the source of the assets in order to fulfill the four freedoms). There's also the fact that OA is based on an old engine, and some devs just want to work on a modern engine.

Players dislike that OA isn't another serious/grim/dark/gritty game (a Quake clone content-wise) or that isn't a game where they can lower everything to the lowest settings for high visibility. In the worst cases, they dislike OA because it isn't an elite-only game where only seasoned players can enjoy it (this spawned two recent forks which ended up as huge failures because of this narrowed scope). Another group dislike OA because it isn't a military shooter, another because of graphics, and another one dislike OA just because dislike itself. While I don't give a single damn about these three latter groups (am I missing another group?) part of my motivation was lost because of the ungratefulness shown by the former two player groups.

Also, trying to cater to many of these groups involves OA betraying its own identity and development rules, something we have already decided not to do.

It's a lot more complex than it seems. And I'm having a good day, so I don't really want to search for forum threads and get my day to waste.

Well... this have to be a very sticky situation for OA then... I can see it being less popular and praised on that other game using ioquake/using source code from Quake 3, it of course been trampled by those groups but also for people who just wants to play games without charge, then that is lost because of Quake Live. OpenArena is at it's edge to being dead if there is nothing sorted out and the sort out is OpenArena 3, but it's more of a matter of effort and time put into to rebuild OpenArena and has it's identity as a more respected game again. To keep everything under GPLv2, try to please audience and being it own identity is hard work, but after all, as I said, it's up to people contributing to OA and the community's response and attitude towards OA, not the dislikers, we can have many dislikers, but that still should not be effecting OA's style and contribution since it's not in our region. Beside though, I though an idea that I taken from CS:GO; split casual and competitive, although I still don't know if this will work or not and could just be left out and cut out, but someone should take note of that for OA3.

As for me mapping, I'll slowly try out tutorials and try to make maps with a fair and good layout.

Yeah, I want to go back to mapping, as things have really improved in the last months and at least I can map without interruptions. Then, I remember all the work I have to finish (OACMPv1, OACMPv2, mapping manual, OA3 maps) and my motivation suddenly wants to dissappear. -.-

Hmm, you don't really need to finish them works and you can just leave it to someone else because it's under GPLv2, so you can try doing mapping again if you could.

I also want to try mapping as I have some thematic ideas to try out

Well what thematic ideas you wanted to try out?
Its a good thing the content of OA get's some serious attention after al these years.

Well true, after all, OA3 will need to be implemented nicely and more seriously since its a huge release.
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« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2014, 07:03:04 PM »

Also, something I forgot to mention is that I've accidentally deleted my OA development folder during a mass-data transference between computers, meaning that all the hard work I was doing... I'll have to do that again. -.-

Marterzon: The problem is that for GPLv2 the work must be done first. In this case, well, although I had started such work, I have to start again from scratch. -.-
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« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2014, 06:33:44 AM »

Also, something I forgot to mention is that I've accidentally deleted my OA development folder during a mass-data transference between computers, meaning that all the hard work I was doing... I'll have to do that again. -.-

Marterzon: The problem is that for GPLv2 the work must be done first. In this case, well, although I had started such work, I have to start again from scratch. -.-

Oh... well is there any other license that could be used and compatible with GPLv2 like MIT License?
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« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2014, 11:34:21 AM »

Oh... well is there any other license that could be used and compatible with GPLv2 like MIT License?
Public Domain, and CC-0, I suppose...
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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2014, 02:12:15 PM »

Oh... well is there any other license that could be used and compatible with GPLv2 like MIT License?
Public Domain, and CC-0, I suppose...

What about the beerware license or the WTFPL?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beerware

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 02:19:57 PM by Suicizer » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2014, 05:53:46 AM »

Oh... well is there any other license that could be used and compatible with GPLv2 like MIT License?
Public Domain, and CC-0, I suppose...

What about the beerware license or the WTFPL?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beerware

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL

Haahah "Do What the Fuck You Want to Public License", also Beerware is quite similar to it but encourage the user to buy the developer a beer. Smiley

Anyway, to the more serious licenses and PD:

Oh... well is there any other license that could be used and compatible with GPLv2 like MIT License?
Public Domain, and CC-0, I suppose...

CC-0 and Public Domain is pretty similar, except that CC-0 is under Creative Commons, which just provides the fallback licenses really.

Beside though CC-0 and WTFPL seemed pretty good licenses for the project.
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