contributing with sound

[tmm88]

Cheers
I just came up with a couple of tracks that could perhaps be used in openarena. One is an industrial techno track, the other one is an ambient track. The techno track is basically a phased loop (that looks a bit like a early Detroit techno basic track, with some influences of stuff like Paula Temple, and some other things). could work fine although it's a bit way too compressed, within dynamics, and pretty loud, which I am not sure if it is a good thing. The ambient track doesn't fit the way it is right now (it's basically too tonal, and emotive, and sounds a bit like fennesz, and that kinds of stuff). but can fit If I can basically turn it into a dark ambient track (sounding more like atrium carceri and that kind of stuff). I post links to both tracks below.

regarding the ambient track, you can find it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T28pUTjZ6DM
the techno track can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UACsn1ETLcs

Looking forward, kind regards
tiago

[tmm88]

you can find a bunch of tracks I have online here: https://tiagomoraismorgado.bandcamp.com you have about 90 tracks there, all made during 2016. I would be particularly happy if any of these tracks could fit into open arena. looking forward, kind regards. tiago

[Gig]

Are they GPLv2+ compliant? E.G. are their "sources" available?

[tmm88]

all this content I created under Creative Commons 4.0 generic licenses. so, it is perfectly compliant with GPL, as long as you credit my work. that's it. I can make as many tracks as necessary for the open arena game, under specific sub-genres, as necessary and I can do it actually pretty fast. looking forward, cheers. tiago

[Gig]

all this content I created under Creative Commons 4.0 generic licenses.

Excuse me, what do you mean with "generic licenses"?
CC-BY?
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

I've never been able to get a list of "OK" licenses for OA by Frombell, except for GPLv2+, Public Domain and CC-0...

[tmm88]

I can provide music with any license, as I am not really profiting from the music I make that much (no one does in fact nowadays, or very few people do). so, that means my music can comply with any open source license, and I can give permission for that, even written, if necessary

[fromhell]

I wouldn't accept it anyway as it's still not tracker modules either.   Streamed music formats are something i'd rather avoid

[tmm88]

I just want to collaborate with you guys. if you can give me a chance to be part of open arena, the only thing I need is you to give me instructions on how can I send you stuff for us to start collaborating together. and I will start sending you content

[Neon_Knight]

Here's the thing tmm88.

Assets in OpenArena must be GPLv2 because the entire game is licensed under that format. Something under GPLv2 should allow us to accomplish the four fundamental freedoms: freedom to use the software any way the user wants, freedom to distribute the software as it is, freedom to modify the software, and freedom to distribute these modifications. In order to achieve these two last freedoms, we need access to the "source", and everything which was used to create the song must also be licensed under GPLv2 or other compatible license such as Public Domain. As a benefit, it allows the game to be included by default in a lot of places such as official Linux distros.

In music, for GPLv2, the preferred method is tracker because the song itself is the source and can be checked for non-Freeness such as stolen/non-free samples or fragments copypasted/recreated from other non-Free songs. Entire versions of OA were pulled out because of non-Freeness (0.5.0). I don't know if there is another format which allows the user to achieve those four freedoms other than tracker.

I hope you understand our situation. It's not done out of malice. But like any other project out there, OA has its own rules, and licensing is something we cannot pass.

[tmm88]

so, bearing this in mind, neon-knight, and bearing in mind that I can make custom assets from scratch to license under the GPLv2 (freedom software rules, I love Richard Stallman, he's my main man), how should we proceed for me to give you guys the assets for you to license and put in the game? cheers. tiago

[tmm88]

hey guys. I thought it would be interesting to share this sound. please feel free to add it to openerena library I composed it right now. it's compliant with GPLv2. looking forward. cheers. tiago

PS: I can upload it in a non compressed audio format

[Neon_Knight]

so, bearing this in mind, neon-knight, and bearing in mind that I can make custom assets from scratch to license under the GPLv2 (freedom software rules, I love Richard Stallman, he's my main man), how should we proceed for me to give you guys the assets for you to license and put in the game? cheers. tiago

The only software I know capable of creating tracker tunes is Modplug tracker. I don't know if there is any other software capable of doing this. You could also create a MIDI in another program capable of exporting the format, then importing that MIDI to Modplug and manually add the instruments. I don't know, really.

[tmm88]

you don't need a tracker. you only need ffmpeg -I sourcefile.wav sourcefile.ogg and this is the format most engines are using. if we are talking about complexity, or retro, vs avantguard sequencing, I can do all, from sonic pi to supercollider, from noise to ableton and logic, etc. I can mix to mono, I can mix to ambisonics, and even wave field synthesis, I can sequence the midi manually which is what I did here, and used samples to get it done fine. or I can do it procedurally

[Gig]

I'm sorry I really can't help with this stuff.
I do know nothing about tracker files.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_tracker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module_file

I do only know that OA can play .wav and .ogg files and that gplv2 requires to provide a "source" (e.g.. a .xcf or .psd for a multilayer image used in jpg or tga in-game)... I don't know if the .ogg can also act as "source"...

[tmm88]

exactly that's what I mean. tracker are old schools sequencers used of sequencing up MIDI data

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI

an example of a tracker is renoise

https://www.renoise.com

you can sequence midi data there, and export midi files or exporting audio

I used Ableton Live for doing the predeceasing example. why? because I can sketch ideas with ableton in minutes

that's the best tool for me to make this kinds of things

i exported the audio I got from ableton to aif/wav, and I can now convert it to *.ogg vobis, which is an open source audio format as you all know

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorbis

I can also generate procedural audio audio with puredata

https://puredata.info

which you can embed into open arena thanks to libpd

https://github.com/libpd

or otherwise I can use supercollider and you can integrate the stuff I make in supercollider straight to the source of the game, thanks to the fact that it is written in c++ and qt

https://www.google.pt/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0ahUKEwjxn_KIoanRAhWkCcAKHSttCsMQFgg9MAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fsupercollider%2Fsupercollider&usg=AFQjCNFdd2y0sqp8uj3vwTn4RyMRIxh59g&sig2=1uTog-ks52eKwNtBz6rmcQ

this way we can achieve non linear audio, doing things like if statements, random and states triggering, for dumping out audio, midi, or opensoundcontrol data

[fromhell]

you don't need a tracker. you only need ffmpeg -I sourcefile.wav sourcefile.ogg and this is the format most engines are using.

i'm not a fan of huge filesizes and the loop hitch bug

or otherwise I can use supercollider and you can integrate the stuff I make in supercollider straight to the source of the game, thanks to the fact that it is written in c++ and qt

no

[Gig]

Excuse me Fromhell, what's the "source" format (file extension) used for the 0.8.8 music tracks?

[fromhell]

0.8.8's music is irrelevant and the reboot deletes the current music entirely.

[Gig]

But then, couldn't you just say which file extensions would be okay for you?

This is not a treasure hunt or a tv quiz show. It's just someone who wants to contribute to the game. Why can't you just say "I need x or y file extension" instead of "not this, not that"? I know nothing about tracker formats, but it looks like tmm88 can understand what you need, if you tell him...

Where is the problem? You know I'm a bit stupid and you need some patience with me at times... but I don't understand the reason why at times you don't give clear indications about how to contribute when someone wants to help the project...

I don't want to upset you, but I don't understand...

[tmm88]

i want to contribute audio assets such as effects and music

[Hitchhiker]

tmm88, I guess you can export each midi 'track' as a separate midi file from your sequencer software? and import those to a Renoise track;attribute a sample to them and export as IT, S3M, MOD, XM (which XMP player can read). Possibly your sequencer software can export directly to any of the formats XMP library can read (which I believe is the preferred way for future version of OA to play music).
fromhell, which would be an acceptable filesize for a music track?

[tmm88]

that doesn't make any sense. id tech 3 and 4 use ogg vorbis files. why the hell should I do music in a tracker, if I work with another kinds of technology that is far more suitable to what I am currently doing? that doesn't make any sense. A tracker is a DAW, yet a primitive one. Trackers were used back in the 80s to do sort of midi sequencing, when one of the few ways of sequencing midi was using that kind of technology in machines like Atari, spectrum, commodore, etc.. but that was for lame people, who didn't know anything about software development. if you go and check what people in STEIM in Amsterdam were doing (and 10 or 20 years later, they had there people like mouse on mars, just for you to get an idea), they were far more ahead at the time, they were grabbing scripting languages that very few people knew at the time in Europe (that was because they had there a guy who came from Silicon Valley who was teaching them that stuff, and he was my teacher a couple of years ago), namely scripting languages like c++, ruby, python, etc. and they were putting like really old machines, to sequence midi reacting to things like infra-red sensors, accelerometers, gyroscopes, and many other things. except that at the time such technology was far more expensive then it is nowadays. so they had there like these two people - joel Ryan, and Bert boengers. joel was the guy from Silicon Valley who was teaching everyone those scripting languages, and Bert was kind of teaching them how to develop hardware. with things like sensor lab, which at the time would cost around 2,5k to manufacture, and you would need a single computer to read the sensor data.  so, if these guys that were controlling synthesizers such as the Yamaha dx-7 reacting to sensors (check early works of Michel wasivisz and laetitia sonami), at the time technology was far more limited, and there were starting to appear the first trackers, namely for these old machines, etc. why the hell we should stick ourselves to primitive worthless technology, when we can make things that are far more interesting like procedural audio, scripting stuff to make generative and non-linear music, using high end samples, and using things like ambisonics, which you can easily grab from oculus sdk and use in a sequencer like ableton and logic, and then implement that stuff in the game thanks to their opensource code, and getting surround sound out of stereo fields. and using things like high samples, reverbs etc. or other combining that with prototyping of non-linear and generative audio in supercollider and pure data, that we could then bind to the source of the engine, or at least translating the code, and getting stuff to be generated in real time, that sounds different everytime you play it, and has like a sense of spatial deepness, that you cannot find otherwise?

[fromhell]

why the hell should I do music in a tracker,

Because it would then become maintainable, have less audio loss, have a smaller compressed file size, not hitch the game for a loop, and be open.    I also mentioned tracker formats on the front OA page in the Help Wanted section.  I don't do stream formats.

Libxmp has been implemented in the engine for at least 2 years now.

but that was for lame people, who didn't know anything about software development.

I stopped reading right there.

I am not obligated to featurecreep just because someone wants an unproven experimental high concept music system bolted on a fundamentally 1999 video game.  It makes as much sense as ditching everything and switching to UnrealEngine4.

[tmm88]

now I see why you need the tracker. anyway I can send you midi files and you open them in you tracker of election if necessary. this way it could fit into less space, and it would fit open arena expectations. sorry for my rudeness/clumsiness. it's true that if you have a midi file it will fit into less space, and with a tracker, that should just work fine. furthermore, although I like the idea of getting old games which I am or was passionate about to run on modern technology, such as the case of the successful quake 2 evolved, I also see the point that if you want to get a modern arena game, then you get quake champions.

my apologies, for not to having understood your point before

so tomorrow I will do a midi composition and post it here. or perhaps I do it even now

[Gig]

I do know there are some problems of small "hitches" happening when music track restarts. I don't know if that is something that can be fixed (e.g. maybe music buffer caching may be improved?) or that can be wotkarounded by using different file formats...
From Fromhell's words, it looks like OA is capable of playing some kinds of tracker formats directly, without having to convert them to streams like ogg (which seem to be related to the hitches)... but i'm not sure I undersood correctly.

About interactive music, I never felt the need for it in this old-style Arena game. I do find it more adapt for a "campaign" single player game than an arena shooter. Maybe it may still be cool to have the music change tone/speed when you are low on health... however I don't feel it as necessary. You die often, so the music would change many times...
Speaker for my own personal feeling, of corse.