Poll
Question: which fix do you want?
being able to shoot through the "grid"
remove railgun
replace with something else say nailgun,lightning, or hey maybe battlesuit
put a trap similar to tourney6ish_ctf
some sort of hazard on the platform(lava,slime,electricity)
remove platforms and have the railgun suspended
move the platforms behind that base and extend the whole map
moving platforms? (this idea needs work)

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Author Topic: oa_ctf4ish needs balance for campers  (Read 84062 times)
adriano
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« Reply #125 on: July 17, 2010, 02:09:48 am »

Thank you for you answers !

So if all weapons remain how it is now, then I would at least put in the wall at rocket platform for rail protection because when someone is camping on rail platform above your base and you want to kill the camper, then it is very difficult. The wall can at least protect you from one rail hit, so you can get the rocket, jump up to rail platform with jumppad and get the camper down of there.
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Udi
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« Reply #126 on: July 17, 2010, 03:02:25 am »

So if all weapons remain how it is now, then I would at least put in the wall at rocket platform for rail protection because when someone is camping on rail platform above your base and you want to kill the camper, then it is very difficult.

I think we can try that wall, it could also make the map more detailed. But I don't know if it can help that much, since most of the railshots occur when you are on the highest point in the air after the jumppad bumps you (it's the most easier to hit the player at that time, since there's less vertical speed) and I rather won't make the wall that high as the jumppad kicks you. Maybe decrease the force of the jumppad, but that kills the airrocket fun.
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adriano
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« Reply #127 on: July 17, 2010, 05:48:04 am »

So if all weapons remain how it is now, then I would at least put in the wall at rocket platform for rail protection because when someone is camping on rail platform above your base and you want to kill the camper, then it is very difficult.

I think we can try that wall, it could also make the map more detailed. But I don't know if it can help that much, since most of the railshots occur when you are on the highest point in the air after the jumppad bumps you (it's the most easier to hit the player at that time, since there's less vertical speed) and I rather won't make the wall that high as the jumppad kicks you. Maybe decrease the force of the jumppad, but that kills the airrocket fun.
Another thing is, placing a wall or something else in the air, exactly on that point that you can't hit the enemy on highest point.
Here an example of what I mean:
(Attention, this is ugly  Grin )



And what should be modificated is the teleporters, blue and red are different.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 06:00:21 am by adriano » Logged
Udi
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« Reply #128 on: July 17, 2010, 09:06:48 am »

Another thing is, placing a wall or something else in the air, exactly on that point that you can't hit the enemy on highest point.
Here an example of what I mean:

A floating wall would look funny, but if the wall touches the platform then it's huge and robust. I already have some ideas to fix this, question is if I can make it in Netradiant Smiley.

And what should be modificated is the teleporters, blue and red are different.

That's a bug. The shader fixes coming in the next release will fix the blue portal, but until then you can download it.
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Thoushaltdie
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« Reply #129 on: July 17, 2010, 11:54:54 pm »

i still like having the bfg on this map because it is a fun gun that i never get to use. and you have to jump up to get it anyways. i do think that it should have alot less ammo.
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adriano
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« Reply #130 on: July 18, 2010, 10:39:12 am »

Ok, I have another point:
- The 2 respawn directions to jumppad can disturb. When you are in hurry to return the flag and you respawn, then it easy happens that go unfortunately to the jumppad and that costs much time. So it's better when the respawn direction is lateral.


p.s.

news about the wall, Udi? ^^
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Udi
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« Reply #131 on: July 19, 2010, 02:56:24 pm »

Version 4: z_oactf4ish2_v4.pk3
  • walls added (They are on the other side of the platforms compared to adriano's pictures, because the teleporter pushes the players on the left platform. Since that's the side where the jumppad leads, it cannot be as high as the jump.)
  • arena file and levelshot added, now you can launch the map from the skirmish menu
  • kamikaze disabled
  • the textures on the blue base changed, since it's a specular texture and will be too bright when the new textures come
  • light trims added to both bases and red lights changed to blue on the blue base
  • some brush and other detail fixes (a jumppad kicked higher then it's counterpart)
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adriano
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« Reply #132 on: July 20, 2010, 06:40:08 am »

Good work!


Things I noticed:
- Blue base has red jumppads
- in a few times when you are hurry and you do a bad air strafe to left, then it can happen that you don't across the new wall.



I didn't understand what you mean in "because the teleporter pushes the players on the left platform. Since that's the side where the jumppad leads, it cannot be as high as the jump". Could you explain it more, pls?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 02:27:25 pm by adriano » Logged
adriano
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« Reply #133 on: July 23, 2010, 01:30:11 am »

Could you answer my question above (what  I edited) and say if that is for now the final version of the map or do you want to change other things?
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Udi
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« Reply #134 on: July 23, 2010, 02:27:57 am »

I didn't understand what you mean in "because the teleporter pushes the players on the left platform. Since that's the side where the jumppad leads, it cannot be as high as the jump". Could you explain it more, pls?

You can expect to be camped from the enemy rail platform the most (a few times campers sit above your own base and rail you from behind, but they are easier to kill). That's the reason why the platform which is the easiest to reach (the platform on the left, if you are facing the opposite base) has it's wall on the side facing the enemy base and rail platform. But since the jumppad is on that same side too, the wall has to be small so you can jump across it. (Or you can make a wall which players can go through, but missiles don't, like a forcefield, but that would be too much extra for a remake.)
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adriano
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« Reply #135 on: July 23, 2010, 01:25:54 pm »

You can expect to be camped from the enemy rail platform the most (a few times campers sit above your own base and rail you from behind, but they are easier to kill).

No no no, I don't think so! A lot of players go to left platform, take rocket+armor, jump down and jump to enemy rail platform to camp there (a little bit). The few real intentional campers  go to own rail platform. 2 floating walls on each platform would eliminate both problems. Now when you are thinking where I put the second wall its easy: Just put it behind and above the jumppad. The wall how you put it in, is not so much protecting because the railers shot when the player is on highest point (you said it, too).


[naturally the walls have not the right size and position but it should be a kind of this]
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Thoushaltdie
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« Reply #136 on: July 23, 2010, 01:54:30 pm »

why not a "forcefeild" instead of a wall? its explainable because this is a futurist space map Wink and you could just use the same stuff as suspended's floor. rockets and plasma go through it but rail cant and its kinda see through. Then you just have to change it to let players through. or can you not simply "let" players pass through it without letting railshot go through to?
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Peter Silie
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« Reply #137 on: July 23, 2010, 02:26:23 pm »

But: this is oa, not pac man.
It should be possible to frag an opponent if you have the rail.
this map isnīt rail safe and shouldnīt be.
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Thoushaltdie
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« Reply #138 on: July 24, 2010, 12:18:03 am »

well that is what they are now making it Sad personally i just wanted a fix to ppl camping over your base where you are literally incapable of killing them if they are even half decent with rail. i personally voted for a simply trap that would crush them when it was shot.
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Udi
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« Reply #139 on: July 24, 2010, 02:07:59 am »

But: this is oa, not pac man.
It should be possible to frag an opponent if you have the rail.
this map isnīt rail safe and shouldnīt be.

Yes, I agree. I can make the two wall change or the force-field, but not as a replacement for oa_ctf4ish. I will check the other errors on the map, and I will post the version without the walls in the SVN commit topic. The force-field version can come later as an extra.
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Peter Silie
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« Reply #140 on: July 24, 2010, 03:15:24 am »

+1
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Gig
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« Reply #141 on: July 25, 2010, 09:06:55 am »

I was not able to try the last beta until now. I will try it tomorrow...
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« Reply #142 on: July 26, 2010, 06:52:27 am »

I tested the v4. Not bad, but I'm not sure that the walls on the lateral platforms (after the portals) are really useful to protect against the rail campers. Maybe the v3 is enough...
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I never want to be aggressive, offensive or ironic with my posts. If you find something offending in my posts, read them again searching for a different mood there. If you still see something bad with them, please ask me infos. I can be wrong at times, but I never want to upset anyone.
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« Reply #143 on: August 05, 2010, 04:37:16 am »

So, guys? Any news?

Udi? Someone else?
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Udi
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« Reply #144 on: August 05, 2010, 05:17:01 am »

So, guys? Any news?

On hold. 1st: webpage redesign, 2nd: oa_ctf4ish finish.
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Cacatoes
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« Reply #145 on: October 25, 2010, 06:31:43 am »

I didn't even took time to have an eye on all these changes until now. Of course I'm anticipating your next task but it's better if I give my PoV before you work again on it Tongue

- is the bfg platform now a bit too small ? well, it's okay like this and BFG shouldn't be easy to access, so agreed Tongue
- about the floating rocket, it was an issue when physics were at 125fps, still, some server admins might still use fps dependent physics, and the change won't harm non-fps dependant physics, so here too I agree.
- The sky looks more natural with distant stars, I usually disable sky but this now makes it nicer and I'd even say close stars were almost provoking a camouflage effect, making players harder to distinguish. So I think the change was worth.
- Walls may not disturb too much the gameplay, may be partially protective (for people who stay a bit on RL platform), it should be tested. But I agree we should keep close to the original and a walled version as an extra may be the solution, meanwhile I'd vote not to implement them. Camping is performed on both side of the map Cheesy Not only from one. Without the hole on the platform, it's almost easier to kill the camper when s/he is in his/her own base (because you have full angle and if you insist with minigun you harm him/her a bit). But when camping in our base, one can also wait to get a RL from an enemy and rocket jump to RG platform to kill the camper. I haven't tried yet to deal with campers with that hole in RG platform solution. I also fear about being railed too often from that platform and I almost wished shoots could only cross in one direction, not from top to below, but I'll have to check that.
- I may not disable the kamikaze, since server admins can already do that with disable_holdable_kamikaze. Better, I planned to use replace function to replace it with quad damage Cheesy as a test. I've seen QL map has put Quad in this map and I think this can be fantastic. Alternative would have been to replace megahealth for this, and after thinking of it, this may be the best option. However, I feel like having more options can be better, if admins can replace stuff, then mapper can leave them this opportunity and spare the hassle to recompile. The other point is Sago's intent may have been to give a MissionPack flavour to this map. There is also a guard item which appears when you enable MP if I'm not wrong. It's a bit sad to have such items while having maps not designed for it, however I feel like it's again better to have 2 different flavours, vanilla and MP, design the map either for one or the other but don't do half (a crossing which may have been encouraged by MP integration into baseoa).
- about that texture change in blue base (v4) I don't see what it is. But I already use your texture pack as a replacement and I didn't see anything wrong with it while playing v4.
- Aesthetically, light trims in blue and red base near the flag may be a bit too much, I would have opted for a more sober version and eventually supress them. I think I've noticed you added lights at other places and I like them.
- I don't know which jumppad kicks higher than its counterpart ...
- You may already know, Blue teleporter and Red teleporter aren't symetric. Red teleporter is easier (at least for me) to perform a trick. The map has its charm with having 2 different stuff, but for equity purpose I wonder if that should be changed. I like to try doing that trick on both versions of teleporters, that may be left as is, or not Tongue

OMG too many smileys...

PS: that was a quick try
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andrewj
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« Reply #146 on: October 25, 2010, 10:03:51 pm »

I usually disable sky
Dang, I never knew you could turn off the sky.  Wish I knew about that all the times I played reptctf12 and couldn't see a frickin' thing Grin
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Udi
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« Reply #147 on: October 26, 2010, 04:38:04 am »

PS: that was a quick try

Thanks Caca! I think we should first make a vanilla version and then we can make experiments. So I would remove the additional walls, still leaving out the kamikaze (or only allow it for TA gametypes) and not introducing the quad.

The light trims maybe a bit overkill, yes. The jumppads behind the teleporters were different, one of them kicked you more higher, I noticed it while I was doing the walls. I haven't noticed the difference with the teleporters, so I'll check it out.
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Cacatoes
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« Reply #148 on: October 26, 2010, 09:18:57 am »

 Afro
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Gig
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« Reply #149 on: October 28, 2010, 03:50:43 pm »

Just played some ctf matches on the map (not a modified berta, I'm talking about the classic 0.8.5 version):
One match ended:
Red team: 8
Blue team: 1
(and the previous had similar results)
... then the server admin disabled the railgun... and the next mach:
Red team: 0
Blue team: 8

The red team was heavily using the railgun, and dominating thanks to it. Once removed that weapon, the blue team taken the lead (even if it wasn't exacly an "own" as the final 0-8 may suggest: the challenge was demanding).

Ps: Me and Cacatoes were in the blue team.

We really have to do something for this map. Obviously we have to fix the "grid"... but maybe we should also place another item in the place of the railgun, or give it mid-air instead of over the platform (to not provide an infinite supply to the campers)...
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I never want to be aggressive, offensive or ironic with my posts. If you find something offending in my posts, read them again searching for a different mood there. If you still see something bad with them, please ask me infos. I can be wrong at times, but I never want to upset anyone.
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