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Author Topic: GPL violation?  (Read 15823 times)
fromhell
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« on: February 29, 2012, 06:05:13 pm »

http://www.moddb.com/mods/tier666

I didn't get any requested source. (although this is a "mod", it comes with a closed source modified engine)

I have HIGH doubts this man actually licensed an expensive id tech3 license to "mess around" and "go gold".....

also makes me wonder if other gpl code is used

He also has a "Hopper Engine" too. The commercial id tech 3 license would be granted to one project only, not two, so if he actually did license id tech 3 as he claims, he would be violating the commercial license as well.
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Gig
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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2012, 02:17:12 am »

Are you sure it includes a modified engine?
I haven't tried the mod yet... browsing some pages of the site, I haven't find yet references to a modified engine. Where is that they talk about the licensed engine? I can't find that...

"Tier666 is a bot AI modification for QuakeIII Arena"... sounds like a standard mod.
But, now that you make me think, I don't know how a mod can modify Team Arena (which is a mod itself)... maybe during installation it copies your "missionpack" (Team Arena) to another folder, and then places its patch into this new copy, that becomes the separate Tier666TA mod this way?
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fromhell
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2012, 04:09:51 am »

If you download the actual thing and open it you'll find .so files and exe files

Mods do not just have those

Besides, if he could afford the engine as he claims to have licensed, then he could afford a web site, instead of just only moddb profiles
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
Progress of OA3 currently occurs behind closed doors alone

I do not provide technical support either.

new code development on github
Kappasecondus
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 07:32:15 am »

Oh. Anyway it's just a mod. But anyone can explain me how the fuck urban terror get closed source? My topics get blocked everytime i ask.

But:

Copyright (C) 1999-2005 Id Software, Inc.

This file is part of Quake III Arena source code.

Quake III Arena source code is free software; you can redistribute it
and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as
published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License,
or (at your option) any later version.


Quake III Arena source code is distributed in the hope that it will be
useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
GNU General Public License for more details.

You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
along with Quake III Arena source code; if not, write to the Free Software
Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin St, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA  02110-1301  USA
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grey matter
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 01:00:02 pm »

UrT is a special case. First they used the fact that you could release mods without source (this was allowed when using the old gamecode and license, while the (engine) code was not yet released as GPL), provided that the mod only works with a full Quake 3 installation. Then -if i remember correctly- they got a free (engine) license by id, so now they can happily keep it closed source.

I'm not sure where ioquake3 fits into this, as UrT basically requires it. I also guess they'll just rip off ioq3 code for their new "UrT HD", even though they claim they're developing it all by themselves.


I didn't download that tier666 "mod", but if it requires a modified engine executable to run, then the author must either have a license from id, or use the GPL'ed (id or ioq3) code and release it (at least upon request).
If it were just a mod (i.e. *.qvm or *.dll/*.so/*.dylib but no modified engine *.exe), he might rely on the old Quake 3 gamecode license (see note about UrT above). He would then however not be allowed to use any GPL'ed source code, such as ioquake3 or the brainworks bots.
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GrosBedo
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 03:31:19 pm »

I can now see why some people really dislike UrT...
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« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2012, 05:38:54 pm »

I'm not affiliated with frozen sand or UrT.  But there are some mistakes in this description.

UrT is a special case. First they used the fact that you could release mods without source (this was allowed when using the old gamecode and license, while the (engine) code was not yet released as GPL), provided that the mod only works with a full Quake 3 installation.
This part is correct.  This is the reason why they claim that they were able to release ioUrT (GPL) and not their game code.  They said it can be used with either a full Quake 3 installation or ioUrT.

I'm not sure how they say they are fulfilling the obligation of "only full Quake 3 installation" and produce a ioquake3 based client.  Anyway, that's their choice.

Then -if i remember correctly- they got a free (engine) license by id, so now they can happily keep it closed source.
No idea where you got this information.  They paid id software for a license.  The terms of the agreement and price are not known to the public.  But they have stated that they paid for a quake 3 license to use the old, commercial code.

I'm not sure where ioquake3 fits into this, as UrT basically requires it.
This is wrong.  Their reasoning for not opening the game code source code is because a full quake3 installation can run it.  They also say the source code goes back to the quake3 binary license which is not compatible with the GPL.  Since they are not depending on ioquake3, they claim it is legal.

I also guess they'll just rip off ioq3 code for their new "UrT HD", even though they claim they're developing it all by themselves.
This is wrong too.  I don't know where you are getting your information, but it's wrong.  They bought a quake3 license and they are going to use the old commercial quake 3 source code.  That's pre-SDL, pre-ioquake3, pre everything nice.  They have zero ioquake3 code in the UrT HD engine or game code.

You can say UrT used/abused ioquake3, but they never ripped off code.  They always released their engine changes under the GPL.  Their game code has never used ioquake3 code and it's under the quake3 binary license.
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grey matter
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 03:07:58 pm »

You can say UrT used/abused ioquake3, but they never ripped off code.  They always released their engine changes under the GPL.  Their game code has never used ioquake3 code and it's under the quake3 binary license.

How can you be certain that they've never used ioquake3 code when you don't have access to it?
There are quite a few bugs in the id Quake 3 1.32c GPL release, so they exist regardless of the license. Most of these bugs have been fixed in forks of the GPL'ed game code, so anyone using them must comply with GPL as well. I really doubt that FS happened to find the same bugs and same fixes to all kinds of bugs or quirks like all the open source projects did before them.

So they are developing their own closed source engine now. Without SDL, without cURL, without sv_dlRate, without replacable renderer support, without IPv6, without VoIP, without Ogg Vorbis, without anaglyph rendering from ioquake3. Instead they will reimplement all this without even looking at ioquake3. Sounds like a utter waste of time. Or they'll just not include all these features. Sounds like a poor engine then.

I really like how you say that ioquake3 is not needed, when there are no official patches for critical security exploits in UrT for months and when even the latest Quake 3 1.32c released by id themself contains critical bugs.
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hairball
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 04:31:54 pm »

How can you be certain that they've never used ioquake3 code when you don't have access to it?
I don't know for sure.  That's their claim.  I'm not going to accuse them of copyright infringement without proof though.

I really doubt that FS happened to find the same bugs and same fixes to all kinds of bugs or quirks like all the open source projects did before them.
You can't copyright the ideas in a bug report.  They are free to use the bug report details from ioquake3.  They can't take the actual fixes though.  Whether they were strict with reimplementing the fixes is unknown.

So they are developing their own closed source engine now. Without SDL, without cURL, without sv_dlRate, without replacable renderer support, without IPv6, without VoIP, without Ogg Vorbis, without anaglyph rendering from ioquake3. Instead they will reimplement all this without even looking at ioquake3.
Correct.  They are going to reimplement the parts they care about.  They are starting from the commercial quake3 code (I assume 1.32c) and going from there.  They say they will fix all of the known bugs from ioquake3/quake3.  Time will tell.  They haven't been exactly snappy with fixes for exploits such as the DRDOS.

They know that there's a lot of reinventing the wheel.  I think their focus is more on new features rather than redoing what ioquake3 did.  For instance, they are using the MD5 model format.  I know that's not a new feature since Xreal has it but still... that's part of where they are spending their time.

Sounds like a utter waste of time. Or they'll just not include all these features. Sounds like a poor engine then.
Not to them.  If you buy into their interpretation of the licensing, they are restricted to making changes that a quake3 client can run.  Now that they have a quake3 license and starting from closed source code, they can do whatever they want.  They are free to make it as incompatible with quake3 as they want.  They can't use MD5 with the existing situation in 4.1.1 because quake3 cannot load MD5.  The only way they can use new features like MD5 and keep it closed source is to start over with the commercial quake3 client/server.

They are also planning on an anti-cheat which isn't possible in an open source client/server.  I highly doubt their closed source anti-cheat will be effective either but only time will tell.

I really like how you say that ioquake3 is not needed, when there are no official patches for critical security exploits in UrT for months and when even the latest Quake 3 1.32c released by id themself contains critical bugs.
The issue is one of licensing not security.  You can load UrT with quake3 1.32c.  That's all they need to worry about for licensing (according to them).  Now I don't know anyone who uses quake3 instead of ioquake3 with UrT.  I also know of few people who use their UrT client since it's from 2007.
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WaspKiller
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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2012, 08:22:08 pm »

...I really like how you say that ioquake3 is not needed, when there are no official patches for critical security exploits in UrT for months and when even the latest Quake 3 1.32c released by id themself contains critical bugs.


I apologize for posting 5 months after the previous post but this thread may leave casual viewers with an incorrect assumption.

Without getting into the legality of the licenses for Q3, the GPL Q3 engine, and OpenSource in general, the fact is that you can and have ALWAYS been able to run UrT as a Mod in Q3.

Although UrT versions 4.0, 4.1, and 4.1.1 all were packaged with ioq3, a gamer could simply copy the q3ut4 sub-directory to his Q3 directory and run UrT as a Mod.  The gamer would not have access to the many enhancements of ioq3 such as http/ftp redirected downloads but he would be able to play the game with his ioq3 brothers (I'm not guessing, I did that with UrT 4.0 and only switched over to ioq3 long after 4.1 was released).

The new UrT 4.2 (not to be confused with the unreleased UrT HD) now comes packaged with modified Q3 code and not ioq3 anymore.  Whether Frozen Sands "stole" some ioq3 code I don't know but the short answer to the original question is that ioq3 was NEVER needed by UrT.



If you download the actual thing and open it you'll find .so files and exe files

Mods do not just have those...


Actually I have seen Mods with .dll and .so files (and based on his post so has Grey Matter).  I can't comment on their legality but they were a few out of the hundreds of Q3 Mods.  In fact, E+ used .dll and .so files from version 1.04 to 2.1a.
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