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Author Topic: Making some missing Q3A textures  (Read 11779 times)
nick
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« on: March 05, 2016, 08:00:12 am »

Looks like there aren't many people working on the missing Quake III map textures, so I took a crack at some myself. I started with Q3DM6, The Campgrounds.
Some of them are really simple. The missing proto_grate textures were pretty easy, and the two metalbridge06b textures were literally just recolors. xstairtop6 was just xstepborder3 combined with metalbridge06b.

So far I have all of those, a not-really-finished border11c, and a glowing pentagram. It seemed like the official maps were ovoiding religious symbols and such, so I took it in another direction... Wink Not sure if it really fits the theme though, maybe the OpenArena logo would work better.

I'm also saving the GIMP xcf project files of all of these, and releasing them as public domain.

Can we use the .shader files straight from Q3A or are those somehow copyrighted?
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2016, 11:50:35 am »

Probably OA logo would better fit than Tux, which may also be trademarked or similar.
Also, if you start from OA textures, maybe some of them are PD also, but most of them are just GPLv2+.

Q3A shaders are copyrighted and thus we cannot use 1:1 copies of them...

PS: someone back to working on q3a compatibility is good news... please pay attention to start from gplv2+ compatible free images (GPLv2+/PD/CC0). Smiley
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 11:59:57 am by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2016, 06:31:18 pm »

Thanks!

Q3A shaders are copyrighted and thus we cannot use 1:1 copies of them...
i'm already suspicious about dmn_clown's compatible shaderwork. however right now the grates here which look fine are just alphatest stuff that doesn't need a lot of unique shader setting. Grate designs are hard to make unique compatible takes on

Like everything else in q3's pak0.pk3, .shader files are copyrighted  Even .cfg files are copyrighted

Also having OS mascots could cross into the "no politics" in the NOTTODO, so there's that.   If I have one, it'll assume the game is "taking a side in the OS war", and to be fair i'd have to have them all (which would drastically change the creative direction)- so no thanks.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 07:33:12 pm by fromhell » Logged

asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
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I do not provide technical support either.

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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2016, 08:06:24 am »

Probably OA logo would better fit than Tux, which may also be trademarked or similar.

Permission to use and/or modify this image is granted provided you acknowledge me lewing@isc.tamu.edu and The GIMP if someone asks.

please pay attention to start from gplv2+ compatible free images (GPLv2+/PD/CC0).
Also note that the concept of 'public domain' might not even work in all countries, so if you have a choice then stick to CC0 as a license.
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nick
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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2016, 12:26:43 pm »

Here's one with the OpenArena logo. the diamond in the middle lines up right with the quad damage! Now to tweak the metal ring a bit.

Also, if you start from OA textures, maybe some of them are PD also, but most of them are just GPLv2+
Oops, I'll keep that in mind.

Also note that the concept of 'public domain' might not even work in all countries, so if you have a choice then stick to CC0 as a license.
That too.

Q3A shaders are copyrighted and thus we cannot use 1:1 copies of them...
Darn.

I think I'll take a look at the Strogg flag next. The Quake Logo in the flag is part of the model, and the texture is shaped around it. Shouldn't be too much of a problem though. I saw that the .map sources for q3dm1, q3dm6, and q3dm7 are all included in GTKRadiant which is released under GPL. Did id release the maps under a free liscense too? I didn't see them anywhere else.
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Gig
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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2016, 02:08:21 pm »

Just a few random thoughts:

- That "slim" OA logo is the old one... current OA logo is thicker. However, the old is still used in various textures.

- Maybe a pentagon texture may not have "up" and "down" and thus replacing it with a logo which has got an "up" and "down" may cause strange result if the texture has been used in other maps, where it may have been rotated? Maybe I'm making too many stupid problems...

- Unless the image has got an alpha channel (transparency), you can use jpg instead of tga if you prefer: the engine will automatically load it.
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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2016, 05:13:38 pm »

also fyi mapmodles are baked into bsps, and OA3's engine placeholders all textureless map models in chrome

I saw that the .map sources for q3dm1, q3dm6, and q3dm7 are all included in GTKRadiant which is released under GPL. Did id release the maps under a free liscense too?
No they didn't. Those maps are copyrighted game data still and are considered as example supplements, bundled with radiant for a long time. The same applies to their mapmedia, and every other thing they bundle for supporting other games.

- Unless the image has got an alpha channel (transparency), you can use jpg instead of tga if you prefer: the engine will automatically load it.
Has to be a TGA first. Things only automatically become JPEG during the pk3 build process.  Smiley
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 05:18:06 pm by fromhell » Logged

asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
Progress of OA3 currently occurs behind closed doors alone

I do not provide technical support either.

new code development on github
Gig
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« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2016, 01:49:27 am »

- Unless the image has got an alpha channel (transparency), you can use jpg instead of tga if you prefer: the engine will automatically load it.
Has to be a TGA first. Things only automatically become JPEG during the pk3 build process.  Smiley

Oh... I was thinking to the fact that the engine searches for one of the extensions and if it does not find it, searches for the other one... and so I thought that using jpg instead of tga allowed for smaller file size (and easier preview when attached to forum posts). However, if you prefer to have tga (higher quality?) in svn and then you have a pk3 building script which converts them to jpg at packaging time, for me it's okay. Smiley

@Nick:
About the source .map files of those few q3 maps, I can guess they were first released with the original Q3Radiant, and licensed something like the Q3 SDK EULA.... Q3Radiant source code has later been released under GPL (https://github.com/id-Software/Quake-III-Arena/), but I think none of its assets are included.
Due to this, I fear that even the "configuration" (maybe not the exact word) files necessary to create Q3/OA maps, those which contain definitions and explainations of all available entities, aren't GPLv2. So I can guess the GPL status of GTK/NetRadiant applies to the program itself, not to the configuration stuff required to map for specific games.


Here there are some Wiki pages about Q3 textures and shaders which had to be recreated for OA. Unfortunately, those pages are outdated and also may have duplicate infos. To really check what's already in and what's missing, one may extract somewhere OA 0.8.1+0.8.5+0.8.8 pk3 files and see there, or check the SVN repository http://openarena.ws/svn (also, in SVN you can find some existing OA texture sources in .psd and .xcf formats, which are not in the pk3 files: http://openarena.ws/svn/source/assets/textures/). However, here there are the wiki pages about Q3->OA stuff:
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/List_of_Q3_and_TA_shaders
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/List_of_textures_and_shaders_of_Q3_and_TA_maps
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/List_of_missing_textures_and_shaders_of_Q3_and_TA_maps
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/List_of_missing_textures
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/List_of_missing_sounds
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Pak0.pk3 - (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Pak0.pk3-files - (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Pak0.pk3/Textures
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 08:15:46 am by Gig » Logged

I never want to be aggressive, offensive or ironic with my posts. If you find something offending in my posts, read them again searching for a different mood there. If you still see something bad with them, please ask me infos. I can be wrong at times, but I never want to upset anyone.
nick
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2016, 10:23:05 am »

Quote from: fromhell
No they didn't. Those maps are copyrighted game data still and are considered as example supplements, bundled with radiant for a long time. The same applies to their mapmedia, and every other thing they bundle for supporting other games.
Oh, that's too bad.

- That "slim" OA logo is the old one... current OA logo is thicker. However, the old is still used in various textures.
Oh, oops. Should I switch to that one or stick with this one, then? This is the one from the startup animation.

- Maybe a pentagon texture may not have "up" and "down" and thus replacing it with a logo which has got an "up" and "down" may cause strange result if the texture has been used in other maps, where it may have been rotated? Maybe I'm making too many stupid problems...
That depends. In the Doom and Quake games it's usually pointed like an upside-down star, because it's associated with black magic. It seems to usually be placed in the middle of an area where the direction isn't important though.

Here's my first look at the Strogg flag.


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nick
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2016, 10:25:04 am »

Quote from: fromhell
No they didn't. Those maps are copyrighted game data still and are considered as example supplements, bundled with radiant for a long time. The same applies to their mapmedia, and every other thing they bundle for supporting other games.
Oh, that's too bad.

- That "slim" OA logo is the old one... current OA logo is thicker. However, the old is still used in various textures.
Oh, oops. Should I switch to that one or stick with this one, then? This is the one from the startup animation.

- Maybe a pentagon texture may not have "up" and "down" and thus replacing it with a logo which has got an "up" and "down" may cause strange result if the texture has been used in other maps, where it may have been rotated? Maybe I'm making too many stupid problems...
That depends. In the Doom and Quake games it's usually pointed like an upside-down star, because it's associated with black magic. It seems to usually be placed in the middle of an area where the direction isn't important though.

Here's my first look at the Strogg flag. The chain is just a recolor of a preexisting OA texture for now.
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2016, 10:56:03 am »

I can guess using the current logo in new textures may be a nice thing.
If you need the current logo, you may find it at least in these files (with or without transparency):

pak6-patch085.pk3:
textures\cosmo_light\oa_logo01.tga
textures\sfx\logo256.tga
textures\sfx\logo512.jpg

pak6-patch088.pk3:
textures\sfx\logo256.tga
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 02:21:29 pm by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2016, 11:30:21 am »

Ultimately there is a svg file. somewhere.


Also make sure you don't "paint by numbers" - avoid tracing and direct copying.  I know this has been a problem for Freedoom lately. OA isn't a 'clone' either.  It doesn't have to be a torn flag or even a flat flag (you could go further and paint on some nice drapery and more decorative patterns/ detail)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 11:33:59 am by fromhell » Logged

asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
Progress of OA3 currently occurs behind closed doors alone

I do not provide technical support either.

new code development on github
nick
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2016, 03:20:50 pm »

Ultimately there is a svg file. somewhere.


Also make sure you don't "paint by numbers" - avoid tracing and direct copying.  I know this has been a problem for Freedoom lately. OA isn't a 'clone' either.  It doesn't have to be a torn flag or even a flat flag (you could go further and paint on some nice drapery and more decorative patterns/ detail)

Oh yeah, good point. How's this?

EDIT: No screenshot!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 03:24:39 pm by nick » Logged
Gig
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2016, 02:06:19 am »

Oh yeah, good point. How's this?

Nice. Smiley Maybe you may add some kind of effect on the logo (e.g. outline?), to make it feel a bit more elaborated, but that's not really important. I think you could already go ahead to some other texture. However, Fromhell decides the art direction, let's listen to her (that would have little sense to make a lot of compatibility textures, if she would not add them to the SVN at the end).

Just a random thing: when you will "release" your texture pack, don't forget a copy of the "COPYING" file (GPLv2+ license) and to include "sources" (.xcf, .psd) for multi-layer images, in the package.

Another random thing (probably you already thought to that, but just to be sure): okay to change colors in textures, but in case there is much red or blue in the texture, one should consider they could have been used to identify red and blue base in some ctf map, so also the destination texture should have much red or blue (although in a different tint).

Ultimately there is a svg file. somewhere.
Sounds like an important "source", worth of being loaded somewhere in the SVN, isn't it?

By extension, maybe also this stuff (Joshua's OA OS icon set) may be "saved" somewhere in the SVN?
And also, who knows if it is available a "source" (also without the text) for the version of the logo which appears on the top of the forum, which is attached to this post just to be clear?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 03:02:25 am by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2016, 03:40:47 am »

Well, let's try to do some considerations about replacement shaders... Fromhell, please give us your opinion. Also, I'm not a real expert of shaders (I just did some by modifying existing OA shaders), so please correct me wherever I say something wrong. Thanks.  Smiley

As said, Q3A shader files are copyrighted, so we cannot copy them. But we have to do shaders with similar results. What can we do?
1) .shader file name can vary without problem (one has just to update his own shaderlist.txt accoridngly)

2) shader name cannot vary, because existing maps do search for such names... if a map brush searches for "folder1\test1", it has to exist (either as a shader, or at least as a .tga or as a .jpg)

3) Surfaceparm(s) are important. They do alter how brushes actually work in the game.
3.1) IIRC, some of them are considered during map compiling, while others are considered by the engine when loading the map (IIRC, if you set or comment out "nomarks" and then load the map in the game, marks on walls should be appear or not, where that shader has been used, without the need to recompile).
3.2) IIRC, in some cases even the order of the surfaceparms do somehow change their effect... so shuffling their order may sometimes cause unwanted results, difficult to identify?
3.3) So, what can one do to take distance from the q3 one? Only move "surfaceparm"s lines before of after other lines, such as "qer_*", "q3map_*", "cull"?

4)  "q3map_surfacelight" is considered at compile time: if you modify its value, existing maps will continue to be lit as before, unless they are recompiled. We can (and should, I can guess) modify something like "q3map_surfacelight 1000" into something like "q3map_surfacelight 900" or "1100", to take some distance from original shader. Also, maybe one may specify a different "q3map_lightimage"...

5) IIRC, "cull" is the same of "cull front", and "cull disable" is the same of "cull none", so one may do such kind of change without affecting the result.

6) "Stages" may offer some kind of more liberty, because sometimes there are different ways to obtain similar effects and because, as Fromhell said, we don't have to "clone" everything: if you are making a jumppad shader, it has not necessarily to show the same kind of glowing the original jumppad one, it may glow in a different way.
6.1)  Also, there are three "blendfunc"s thich can be written either in their full form or in their simplified form (e.g. "blendfunc gl_one gl_one" can be written as "blendfunc add" and vice-versa), this may allow to somehow vary from the original a little more.
6.2) Maybe for doing the stages, one may start from some existing OA shader instead of from the original Q3 shader.

7) What about the images loaded by the shaders (map/clampmap in stages)? One one hand, one may use different paths\filenames for them, to make the shader look quite different from the original one... but on the other hand, may think that all Q3A texture image files should have replacement image files in OA, even if in baseq3 maps they were only used through shaders, because some third-party map may rely on them (either directly, or through third party shaders).
I'll try to explain with a real example: here you can find a "fix" I did for a missing shader (the "shoot me button" shader, base_button/shootme2 - I haven't yet posted it to the "SVN commits thread" to ask updating "clown2.shader" file with such changes because I hoped to have some feeback by someone first... noone replied yet... Sad). The original Q3 shader (the first you find in base_button.shader) loads base_support/metal3_3.tga and base_button/shootme_glow.tga. The first .tga does not yet exist in OA 0.8.8; while the second one does exist in pak4-textures.pk3 (yes, the "shoot me" red circle texture is there at least since 0.8.1, but the shader using it does not exist in 0.8.8...). So my shader uses gothic_button/timbuttonside.jpg in the place of base_support/metal3_3.tga, and it seems to me it works well enough, although I haven't received feeback from other users. At the moment, the shader code looks more different than the Q3 one due to this different path, but any other map or shader (baseq3 or third party) searching for base_support/metal3_3.tga would still be broken. So I would like to ask to Fromhell what should I do about this? Create a base_support/metal3_3 file by making some kind of small change to timbuttonside (or making a plain copy of it)? And then also update the shader or not?

PS: For the health of future mappers wanting to use those shaders, don't forget to set "qer_editorimage".

« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 03:47:14 am by Gig » Logged

I never want to be aggressive, offensive or ironic with my posts. If you find something offending in my posts, read them again searching for a different mood there. If you still see something bad with them, please ask me infos. I can be wrong at times, but I never want to upset anyone.
nick
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2016, 03:08:20 pm »

Sorry for not posting! Some things came up IRL. Here's border11c so far. I tried circutry instead of the wires in the original texture, to go with the circuit panels beneath them. (I don't think many other maps use this texture, if any..?) I think I'll take a crack at those big round things you see to the upper-right next. The ones with the black center have a broken shader, but there's supposed to be moving metal bits with a blue glow. I'm thinking metal gears would be a good look here, with the gears turning for the glowing version.
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Gig
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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2016, 02:46:49 am »

Glad to read you again. I had fear somehow I scared you with my long posts...  Cheesy

I can guess some gears may be ok.
In the meanwhile, a few more links that may tell you something useful:

(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Graphics_resources_%26_tutorials
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/DeveloperFAQ
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/GoodPractices
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/NOTTODO
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/OA3/NOTTODO
I do not remember if there was some guideline which suggested to "double" the sizes of textures, when creating replacements? (E.g. if in q3 a certain texture was 128x128, it was better to make its OA replacement 256x256)...? Do someone remember if such thing existed or I remember wrong (which actually happens relatively often)?

PS: Fromhell, some words about "guidelines" (about replacement textures and shaders, see my post above) to follow from you would be very appreciated.  Smiley
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 02:54:25 am by Gig » Logged

I never want to be aggressive, offensive or ironic with my posts. If you find something offending in my posts, read them again searching for a different mood there. If you still see something bad with them, please ask me infos. I can be wrong at times, but I never want to upset anyone.
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