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w1zrd
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« on: December 07, 2007, 02:06:56 PM »

Here is a complete re-make of the old Quake 1 map DM2, or Claustrophobopolis.
The intention of this project was to make it as true to it's original as possible, so here are the major changes compared to oa_dm2.

Fixed disappearing yellow armors bug within the 'trap cages'
Removed plasmagun, replaced with rocketlauncher
Removed railgun, replaced with lightning gun
Removed mega-health at lower teleporter, replaced with yellow armor.
Removed normal health at red armor (bridge), replaced with mega-health
Removed 70% of pre-lit lights, replaced the remaining values with softer ones.
Added a second moving platform in the main-room corridor.
Removed the grenade-trap, replaced with three-section opening lava-floor.
Door entrance in main-room made slightly higher.
Removed haste power-up from secret area.
Complete re-texturing.
Made bridge section wider.
Added 'symbols' on original locations (with exceptions for cages in main-room)

Minor (subtle) changes:
Replaced sounds to add atmosphere.
Aligned all textures in stairs, edges, frames e.t.c
Added a line of visible lava in the main-room floor.
Raised door in south-side main-room.
Re-sized pillars throughout the map

For comparison, here is a screenshot from Quake 1 v.s. Open Arena:



The source is included in the .pk3 file here and the map is also running on RN|testcenter if you want to play it on-line.

[edit: noticed that the bots tend to stand still on random locations, getting locked in within the cages e.t.c so if someone wants to optimize the .aas, feel free] Smiley
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 06:25:22 PM by w1zrd » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2007, 02:10:00 PM »

Great job, W1ZrD! I love it! Cheesy
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 02:15:49 PM by JockeTF » Logged


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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2007, 02:59:54 PM »

sounds great! Smiley
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dmn_clown
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2007, 06:34:36 PM »

- you're missing textures (I suggest "clean room" mapping if you are doing this for OA)
- textures will be out of alignment in 0.8
- the lava trap kills bot play
- bots still get stuck riding the elevator to the upper level
- no patch meshes
- still has vis problems outside the secret area above the lower lava room (this will drop frame rates on some systems)
- no patch meshes
- no patch meshes
- no patch meshes
- the texture on the floor of the water room simply doesn't fit its use (blood would fill the water not stick to the floor)
- did I mention no patch meshes?
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w1zrd
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« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2007, 06:50:33 PM »

- you're missing textures (I suggest "clean room" mapping if you are doing this for OA)
- textures will be out of alignment in 0.8
- the lava trap kills bot play
- bots still get stuck riding the elevator to the upper level
- no patch meshes
- still has vis problems outside the secret area above the lower lava room (this will drop frame rates on some systems)
- no patch meshes
- no patch meshes
- no patch meshes
- the texture on the floor of the water room simply doesn't fit its use (blood would fill the water not stick to the floor)
- did I mention no patch meshes?

- you're missing textures (I suggest "clean room" mapping if you are doing this for OA)
Nothing expect OA 0.7.1 was used while mapping this, no other .pk3 files in any directories.
- textures will be out of alignment in 0.8
So we have to re-map all maps done for Open Arena up until then?
- the lava trap kills bot play
That might be true but now it is like in it's original.
- bots still get stuck riding the elevator to the upper level
And in the yellow armor cages, and in the corridor, and at lower Rocket Launcher, and they can't get to secret red armor, and they can't get to red armor at bridge, and they can't use the moving platform to mega-health e.t.c
- no patch meshes
What are those?
- still has vis problems outside the secret area above the lower lava room (this will drop frame rates on some systems)
Nothing major except textures has been changed in that area except the removal of a few lights. The same problem is already in oa_dm2.
- the texture on the floor of the water room simply doesn't fit its use (blood would fill the water not stick to the floor)
Didn't think of that...
But also a new shader would have to be made then since water usually isn't that clean unless it comes straight from a tap with filters on it.

[edit: any suggestions for a fitting water shader?]
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 07:22:53 PM by w1zrd » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2007, 07:41:07 PM »

Nothing expect OA 0.7.1 was used while mapping this, no other .pk3 files in any directories.

Ahh, blocks10d has been renamed to block10d to match id's name for that texture.  That is the missing texture.

Quote
So we have to re-map all maps done for Open Arena up until then?

No, the problem is in the secret room, those textures have been replaced for 0.8.

Quote
That might be true but now it is like in it's original.

But it makes a single player game end far too quick, and is why I removed it.  If you could fix the issue the bots have with the lava doors than it would be fine.

Quote
And in the yellow armor cages, and in the corridor, and at lower Rocket Launcher, and they can't get to secret red armor, and they can't get to red armor at bridge, and they can't use the moving platform to mega-health e.t.c

They can't use trains period.  Load q3tourney6_ctf up in q3a with several bots in a ctf match and watch as the flag carrier consistently jumps to its doom on the train.

Quote
What are those?

Curves.  See anyone's version of dm5 for reference.  Again, it was one of the complaints about 0.7.

Quote
Nothing major except textures has been changed in that area except the removal of a few lights.

Hence the word still, its one of the reported problems of 0.7.

Quote
Didn't think of that...
But also a new shader would have to be made then since water usually isn't that clean unless it comes straight from a tap with filters on it.

Nah, just change the texture from blocks18cblood to either blocks17g or blocks17i.

The lighting is good, though.
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w1zrd
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2007, 06:50:39 AM »

Ahh, blocks10d has been renamed to block10d to match id's name for that texture.  That is the missing texture.
I still can't find where this one texture would be :S

No, the problem is in the secret room, those textures have been replaced for 0.8.
Would that be the ones on the metal bars, the upper wall, or the lower wall?

But it makes a single player game end far too quick, and is why I removed it.  If you could fix the issue the bots have with the lava doors than it would be fine.
I'll give it a go..
Curves.  See anyone's version of dm5 for reference.  Again, it was one of the complaints about 0.7.
Why would I need curves on DM2, and if a must, where would they then be?
Also, that would make further editing of the map much more difficult since you can't control vertexes, or have I misunderstood?

Hence the word still, its one of the reported problems of 0.7.
It is the water shader causing this frame-drop. In oa_dm2 it drops (on my system) from ~55 fps to 18 with water shader, and ~55 to 52 with the shader removed. There is nothing out of the ordinary with r_tris on either oa_dm2 or q1dm2 in that area.

Nah, just change the texture from blocks18cblood to either blocks17g or blocks17i.
Changed

The lighting is good, though.
Thanks
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2007, 08:08:18 AM »


It is the water shader causing this frame-drop. In oa_dm2 it drops (on my system) from ~55 fps to 18 with water shader, and ~55 to 52 with the shader removed. There is nothing out of the ordinary with r_tris on either oa_dm2 or q1dm2 in that area.

It's not a dramatic framedrop here. On another note i'm running it with 16x Anisotropic filtering

Helps having a video card that's not crippled beyond the Geforce2MX Smiley

I'll test on my 3dfx Banshee later, because with a map having a geometry like this i would get similar framerates on that card
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 08:12:33 AM by leilol » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2007, 08:29:29 AM »

I still can't find where this one texture would be

in the svn, along with the new textures

Quote
Why would I need curves on DM2, and if a must, where would they then be?
Also, that would make further editing of the map much more difficult since you can't control vertexes, or have I misunderstood?

A paraphrased quote "If I wanted to play the Quake levels and have them look the same as Quake 1, I'd play Quake 1."

In the hallway by the secret door.
The stairs leading down to lower lava room.
There are several places where arches could be introduced.
The teleporters could also be changed to the q3 style portal cameras


Helps having a video card that's not crippled beyond the Geforce2MX

*shrugs* I don't lose frames but looking at r_tris, more is visible than should be.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 08:51:51 AM by dmn_clown » Logged

w1zrd
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2007, 12:42:15 PM »

I still can't find where this one texture would be
in the svn, along with the new textures
I meant on the map itself Smiley

A paraphrased quote "If I wanted to play the Quake levels and have them look the same as Quake 1, I'd play Quake 1."

In the hallway by the secret door.
The stairs leading down to lower lava room.
There are several places where arches could be introduced.
The teleporters could also be changed to the q3 style portal cameras
The purpose of my project was to make the map more similar to Quake 1's original, hence the lava-floor and the two platforms for instance. For a non-quake 1 map there is still oa_dm2.

I'll give it a try replacing that watershader and see if that makes a difference, r_tris does show more than it should, and rates drop already inside the secret area location.
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2007, 05:46:46 PM »

I meant on the map itself Smiley

You used it around the lava traps.

Quote
The purpose of my project was to make the map more similar to Quake 1's original

People won't like it if it is exactly like the original.

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« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2007, 06:01:06 PM »

People won't like it if it is exactly like the original.

I will, and so did many other people who tried out the map at the rn|testcenter.
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« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2007, 06:58:04 PM »

I will, and so did many other people who tried out the map at the rn|testcenter.

From: http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=860.msg5791#msg5791

Quote
"One of Quake 3 engine's particularity was the fact that maps used Bezier's curves to make round-offs. I believe then, graphical options defined these curves' interpretation into polygons.
Why, on all the screenshots I see, all is squared, like in Quake 1 & 2 ?"

I think that it would be judicious to round and polish the maps imported from Quake I.
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2007, 05:47:15 PM »

Bezier's curves or not, people still like the map.
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2007, 06:12:58 PM »

Honesty Ive played the map, and I find the texturing to be a whole lot better than oa_dm2.  In oa_dm2 the textures are all pretty much the same, and to me the placement of them looks sloppy.  I also like the dark feel of w1zrd's map.  I dont really thing there will be a problem with bots, because I think if this map is on a server there will be no need for bots.  The server will be full.
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2007, 07:22:16 PM »

Bezier's curves or not, people still like the map.

If given a choice between a complete 1:1 conversion of dm5 or anyone's oa_dm5, ahh skip it you've already made up your mind to disagree with anything we say and or do and I have better things to do than restate what people have already said.

If you have no interest in improving the map's brushwork then don't.  Don't listen to anyone else.  Be arrogant and completely ignore the obvious and constructive criticism.
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w1zrd
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2007, 01:21:18 AM »

Bezier's curves or not, people still like the map.

If given a choice between a complete 1:1 conversion of dm5 or anyone's oa_dm5, ahh skip it you've already made up your mind to disagree with anything we say and or do and I have better things to do than restate what people have already said.

If you have no interest in improving the map's brushwork then don't.  Don't listen to anyone else.  Be arrogant and completely ignore the obvious and constructive criticism.
Anyone's DM5 is made to look like it's original, and for your information (if you never played it) it already has arches/bevels in the 12 year old original, added roots/wines/waterfalls was a nice touch-up which doesn't affect gameplay.

As I said, my project consisted in making Dm2 like more like it's original, not identical, so again (if you have played it), you would see where the differences are.
Brushes have been changed throughout the level with pillars, door entrances (most noticeable would be door heights in the main room) and gap to red armor/mega/bridge, there are two moving platforms close to rocket launcher; because it gives a similar gameplay to it's original. There is a trap-floor in the main room because it gives it the original game play (and it doesn't destroy speakers).

I am still trying to optimize it for bot use, having studied and recorded their behavior on oa_dm2 I now where the problems are..

 If you have something personally against me doing the map, then I can inform you that Anyone was also involved in making it the way it currently is.
Constructive criticism and productive input is valued, but it shouldn't come from only one source when making final adjustments.

Having this kind attitude towards people who give opinions would probably be the reason why there are so few people contributing to Open Arena, and that is a shame, arrogance was never on the topic here until now..
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2007, 05:53:30 AM »

Having this kind attitude towards people who give opinions would probably be the reason why there are so few people contributing to Open Arena, and that is a shame, arrogance was never on the topic here until now..

A lack of smiley use combined with honest opinion does not make arrogance.
Please reread this before you make another scene over a friendly post on the internet.
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
Progress of OA3 currently occurs behind closed doors alone

I do not provide technical support either.

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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2007, 06:02:00 AM »

Bezier's curves or not, people still like the map.

If given a choice between a complete 1:1 conversion of dm5 or anyone's oa_dm5, ahh skip it you've already made up your mind to disagree with anything we say and or do and I have better things to do than restate what people have already said.

If you have no interest in improving the map's brushwork then don't.  Don't listen to anyone else.  Be arrogant and completely ignore the obvious and constructive criticism.

I think you misunderstood me.

I am not against Bezier's curves or making the map smoother, nor do I disagree with everything you say. The only thing I'm against is that "People won't like it if it is exactly like the original".

I think constructive critisim is good, but also that that statement was nothing but discouraging.

Anyway, let's go back on topic, shall we? Smiley
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w1zrd
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2007, 07:14:48 AM »

Apologies if I misunderstood something, I simply had the feeling that Dm3/Dm5 was acceptable conversions whereas Dm2 wasn't..
Back on topic...

Still trying to work out the bot's roaming about, and trying to avoid them getting stuck on key locations (elevator/yellow armor cages/rocket launcher).
As mentioned before, oa_dm2 is still available for them who wishes something less like Quake 1's DM2 so no need to worry about that, we will run the q1dm2 version on some RN servers and see how the response is from the players.

Again, the intention of the remake was to make it look like the original, if someone else wants it any other way, feel free to modify, it's open source and a free world Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2007, 10:52:28 AM »

Hi everybody, I'm back for a single "my two cents" post...

The whole stuff about those "curves" problem is about engine features. I believe people are expecting to see cool new stuff on the old maps, because Q3 engine got a lot more eye candies than Q1. Because 0.7 was rushed (it's my opinion, I might be wrong), it has been seen as a good idea to add tons of shaders (moving walls, shining stuff everywhere, transparency effects here and then) to show up engine's muscles. However, it was a waste of power because at the end, it wasn't looking that good.

If I had time when I remade DM3 & 5, I would have started from scratch: these maps have been made 11 years ago and patches were definitively not in mind of the map designer. Of course, we can put patches everywhere, but will it look good and work the way it should ?

Ok, now, I'm dying horribly once again. "Laaaaater. Peace."
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2007, 11:21:44 AM »

I think you misunderstood me.

Probably it is easy to do on the internets

Quote
I am not against Bezier's curves or making the map smoother, nor do I disagree with everything you say. The only thing I'm against is that "People won't like it if it is exactly like the original".

The maps _should_ be modernized and keep true to Quake 1 (it is possible).

was acceptable conversions whereas Dm2 wasn't..

With the vis problems that exist in both maps neither should be acceptable.
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