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Author Topic: C.M.M. 1: Non-symmetric CTF maps.  (Read 16300 times)
Neon_Knight
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« on: February 07, 2009, 12:25:21 PM »

C.M.M. stands for Community Maded Maps, more than one people behind it. ^^

Well, the idea behind it (the first one, if this goes well, I have some more ideas) is simple: to make non-symmetrical CTF maps. For this objective to be accomplished, I guess, a group of us should work together. For example, a group of people making map related things and the map(s) itself/ves, and other group for testing it/them.

Non-symmetrical maps can be good maps if these have things to be followed, I guess:
- A CTF N/S map shouldn't be (I guess) 100% N/S. It's obvious that some things should be equal or at least similar to keep balance, for example, flag base.
- There should be the same quantity of ways between flag base and the middle area, just distributed in different ways and shapes.
- There should be the same quantity (and type) of items at both sides, and the reachability of them should be equal too.

Examples on non-symmetric maps can be found on basically two games: Quake II and Unreal Tournament:

From Quake II:
- q2ctf3: The Smelter (Same flag base, but VERY different ways to get to it, almost unbalanced)
- q2ctf4 & q2ctf4a: Outlands (which is an adapted version of one of the SP levels, and the same thing above, plus one way to get to flag base)

From Unreal Tournament:
- CTF-Command (Different ways to get to the flag base, different flag base, VERY important unbalancings like two different powerups from sides)
- CTF-EternalCave (Different flag bases, unbalanced since Red flag base has 2 ways to get to the flag and 2 to exit if you know how to make impact jump)
- CTF-Gauntlet (The most balanced NS map IMHO, since you have basically one entering to flag base per base, and both bases have the same features)
- CTF-Kosov (from Bonus Pack III: Inoxx Pack, he's one of my idols, he created CTF-Face ^^ - Flag bases are almost identical, but you have the same ways to get to them)
- CTF-Lavagiant (Both sides of the map have the same items, but different ways to get to the flag, IMHO the other balanced NS map from UT, it became a classic furthermore)
- CTF-November (NOT C.E. - I don't remember much of this map, but there are some disadvantages on both sides)

Well, who's interested in this?

THE list: ^^

Creating:
- Neon_Knight - Mapper
- cosmo - Mapper & Mapobjects maker

Testing:
- chaoticsoldier
- menganito
- Peter Silie
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 05:56:03 AM by |TXC| Neon_Knight » Logged


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sago007
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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 12:45:10 PM »

I am not goind to participate but I think it sounds like a great idea.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2009, 01:10:36 PM »

Participating don't exactly mean making things, we need people to test them too. Also the idea is not one people for one map, but several people for one map. I mean, one can do the red base, other the center area, other the blue base, other can make textures, other can make models, etc... That's the idea. And of course, several people for testing the map.

But if after it you don't want to participate, is your decision. Smiley
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Graion Dilach
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2009, 01:35:54 PM »

I have a texture question... if I photo, for example, my house's wall and create a texture from it, can that be licensed to GPL?

This is the only thing why I did not start texture-making..
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Cacatoes
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2009, 03:58:14 PM »

@Graion,
Yes you can.
Making textures to tile isn't easy, but if you want to have a look at http://www.burningwell.org/ you may get inspired from it and participate (all you have to do would be to take photos, and eventually make textures from them).

@NK
As for the map developped in common, I can't really help.
I don't see how working that way would improve creativity/quality, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea, and it could be worth trying Wink
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2009, 04:23:28 PM »

Simply: taking the best of the participants and complementing them.
For example: in the mapping side, andrewj, Graion Dilach, cosmo, myself and Psiscythe/PsYthe Tongue and in the testing side, for example, Peter Silie, Gerbil and, let's say, sago. Tongue (Remember that those are simple examples)

The participants will be dividing the work. I can make the Blue side, Psythe can make the red side, (both should be different bases) cosmo can work on texturizing one of the bases and make models, andrewj can texturize the other, and Graion can make some textures which will be needed.

After both sides are finished in the structural part, cosmo can join both parts, and when the first version is ready (with cosmo and andrewj texturizing the map) Gerbil, Peter and sago can test the map and tell us where it can fail.

That way, the map can be improved. (I guess we can turn on to improve the united map, there should be a lot of communication too between parts involved in the creation of the map)
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chaoticsoldier
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 01:25:55 AM »

I think this is a good idea. I'd like to volunteer to help test the map.
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menganito
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2009, 04:27:51 AM »

I think this is a good idea. I'd like to volunteer to help test the map.

If there's need, I'd like to help with testing, too.
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Peter Silie
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2009, 04:50:57 AM »

i am on your side, nk.
but why to reduce the communication to ns maps? this could be a great for the complete mapping area.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2009, 05:36:06 AM »

NS maps is just the beginning.
I have more ideas for C.M.M.:
- 16/32 players DM/CTF maps
- Improving existing maps
- Outdoor (maybe with terrain?) maps
- Training map, which will be (I guess) the q3dm0 of the game. Cheesy

With the communication, a popular saying says: "Divide and conquer". ^^

BTW, added collaborators to list. ^^
We need mappers tho. :/
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andrewj
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 04:28:35 AM »

Sorry got too much other stuff on my plate to participate in this (as a mapper), like oa_nemesis and oa_rpg3dm1 plus a couple of my own maps.  Happy to test maps out and offer feedback though.
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cosmo
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2009, 05:04:37 AM »

The idea is nice and I like to join. Thanks.
I see difficulties:

  • Time is short for some of us. Sad
  • A lot of communication is required to get it going. Especially the concept, theme, and layout.
  • People need to work in a constant way on it. It's no fun if you're done with your stuff and depend on things others do and have to wait for a month.
  • Everybody needs to use the same mapping tool (not like lei using quark/worldcraft making it incombatible with radiant. These maps should be banned from OA *grin*)
  • Multiple people could ruin a good theme. One solution would be to have clear structural cuts in the map. Quake2 Outlands is a good example. Each base could go on its own. Don't create CTF maps which are too big and you'll take 10min to capture.

I'm interested in doing a few mapmodels as we benefit putting them in other maps as well. Just tell me what you need.

@Graion Dilach: Most of my textures are made of photos. I'm a lousy painter. If you own the rights of the photo you can release it under what ever you like (multiple times!).
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 05:07:16 AM by cosmo » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2009, 06:04:46 AM »

Well, I have already an idea of a map, with both blue, red, & center sides being truly different each other. I need to sketch it and post here. It has oa_dm3 industrial style @ blue side; oa_dm5 temple style on the red side, and the center is a plane surface with a dam (the dam should be united to the blue side) and the ending of the map being an abyss or a mountain attached to the red side.

I have posted what you've said about the communication.
With the map tool, I guess that's something which was implied in post.
With the timing, we should have some deadlines accorded between all of us.
This NS map (lol, sounds like "NaziSoc Map" Tongue) shouldn't be very big, as a beginning. Just let's make sure that there's enough space to get players moving.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2011, 01:25:15 PM »

I was editing the Liandri Archives, and came to this in the CTF-EternalCave page. Might be a good way to test if a non-symmetrical map might do the trick:

Quote
The creator of the map, Juan Pancho 'XceptOne' Eekels, has revealed that he wanted to create a map that is both balanced and non-symmetrical. After Eternal Cave was finished, he made sure it was balanced enough by letting bots play in the map for two days and comparing the score. Once the score was even enough, the map was declared balanced.

The map has the same items in both bases, but distributed in different ways.

This is the map.
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Peter Silie
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2011, 02:27:20 PM »

i am in Grin
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Bane
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2011, 02:58:29 PM »

I was just browsing thought this thread and got an idea I thought I would share about a non-symmetric ctf map. How about a ctf map where one side is an old castle and the other is a futuristic base. The middle would be kind of a mixture between the two. Anyway I figure I’d just throw this idea out there to see what you guys think.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2011, 03:14:09 PM »

Then go for it.
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Cacatoes
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2011, 03:34:34 PM »

Quote
The creator of the map, Juan Pancho 'XceptOne' Eekels, has revealed that he wanted to create a map that is both balanced and non-symmetrical. After Eternal Cave was finished, he made sure it was balanced enough by letting bots play in the map for two days and comparing the score. Once the score was even enough, the map was declared balanced.

In theory this isn't very right, since it assumes bots have a constant efficiency, no matter what place/situation/weapon they have/are in.
"bot-symetry-compliancy-test" could be directly calculated from the IA code... This is only an issue if bots are known to perform better or particularly bad in some situations.
Of course these are just words and in practice I have no better solution than yours Wink
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2011, 04:56:57 PM »

Of course, it would be easier to test it with humans, but seeing the general lack of interest in testing... well... at least bots don't whine when it comes to map testing and playing non-comp maps. Cheesy
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WingedPanther
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2011, 07:53:54 PM »

I was actually thinking about create a non-symmetric map based on Starship Troopers.  The idea was to have one base be a warren's type area with weapons geared toward short-range combat (rockets, grenades, shotgun, etc).  The other base would have more long channels and corresponding weapons (rails, machine gun, etc).  There would be a no-man's land in between with opportunities for sniper fire from both sides.

Alas, I've been busy lately, and haven't had much chance to play with NetRadiant.  I'm always up for play-testing, as well.
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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2011, 08:13:49 PM »

a non-symmetrical overload map would be funny. one base is in a cave hive network, the other's in a drop ship. Both get different weapons

though, the dropship would end up being more vulnerable, maybe by having a fast repeating rocket shooter to the core triggered by shooting another button or something.

or maybe oa needs an invasion mode of some sort. idk
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