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Author Topic: Team Arena (Missionpack) weapons/items discussion  (Read 5013 times)
Neon_Knight
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« on: November 13, 2009, 08:17:09 am »

Well, the idea of this topic is to discuss among mappers when to place these controversial items on maps. Players can join to the discussion too, but keep in mind that the idea of the topic isn't "these weapons/items should be left out of OA".

I won't explain the TA stuff, you can go here and here for a better explanation.

Of course, as the TA GTKR manual said, not all the items are adequate for all the maps.

Well, let's start:

* Nailgun:
** Placement: Can be used as a defensive weapon in CTF games, where the Shotgun may fail as a close-range weapon. Still, a risky or exposed area could be the best place to put it, just like the LG or RG. Since we as mappers can specific how much ammo or respawn time the weapons have, "delay" "30" (30 sec of respawn) can work.
** Ammo: No ammo for small maps, 1 box for medium-sized or big ones, depending on the size of the map, can work, as long as these are far, FAR away from the gun and also placed in risky or exposed zones.

* Chaingun:
** Placement: If you have a Lightning Gun, I would recommend to not to place it, although it eats ammunition pretty fast. It can be placed in a risky or very exposed zone as well.
** Ammo: 1 box should be enough, if the map is big.

* Prox Launcher:
** Placement: Can be counted as a super weapon in some occasions. So, this should be placed in a very risky area, for example, over a pit of lava. Just the same as the BFG.
** Ammo: No ammo, or 1 if the map is big enough. The same as the Nailgun: 30 sec of respawn can go well to control the mine spam.

* Invulnerability:
** Placement? Well, TBH I don't know where it can be placed, maybe an area where the player could summon it and don't interfere.

* Kamikaze:
** Placement? Maps with big open areas and cover for those who wouldn't want to get blasted by the explosion can work.

* Runes:
** General placement: Depends on the map, and its size. For CTF maps with NG, BFG, or PL, I would recommend two Guards, because many matches will have at least 2 attackers for sure. Guard will let them be protected from many weapons, including BFG. Scout can be placed in large maps. Also, if there's a specific powerup in the map, some runes can be left out. For example, if there's a Quad Damage, there shouldn't be any Doubler. The same with Scout if there's a Haste. If you want to control snipers and there's a Railgun in the map, an Ammo Regen shouldn't be thrown.

These are my thoughts, but I could be wrong in some.

Also, these tips are from the TA manual:

Quote
· Where you place the persistent team power-ups is really more a matter of personal style than a fixed requirement. Generally speaking, we found having all or most of them in easy view of the initial start positions was a good thing. In some cases, we found that placing the scout in a contested area made for interesting game challenges.

· It is not necessary to put every team power-up on every map. If a team power-up would be overpowering on a map, leave it out. If you study the id team maps, you’ll note that not every map has every power up. In a small map, the scout can be unreasonable. In a map where the base is easily attacked and overwhelmed, the guard can unbalance things. In a map where the base is easily defended by snipers, the doubler is powerful.

· Don’t include a kamikaze in a map where players are unlikely to ever see the full effect of the explosion.

And many other tips.

Quote
· The skull generator in Harvester tosses skulls about it to a maximum distance of 96 units. The id map designers usually allowed for a drop radius of 104 to 128 units as a minimum. As a rule, the generator should drop skulls only in a places accessible to the players. Skulls should not drop out into death fog or the void.

· For One Flag CTF, the flag should be placed in an area that is roughly equidistant from both bases and can be easily reached by players from either team.

· The same (as above) is true for Harvester.

· You don’t have to place the white flag and the Harvester skull generator in the same place in the map.

· The personal teleporter entity takes the player to a deathmatch spawn. That’s how we restricted where the player teleported to in some maps.

· Don’t feel obligated to put the CTF flag bases, the skull receptacles, and the Overload skull obelisk in the exact same location in the bases. Just remember to mark gametypes correctly.

· When converting Q3A CTF maps with small base areas around their flags will probably need to have their bases enlarged to accommodate the Overload skull obelisk.

· OVERLOAD: When designing the base for the placement of the skull obelisk, don’t make it easy for attackers to shoot the obelisk from protected locations.

· FLOOR ARROWS: The graphic arrows were added to map floors to help the players find their ways through potentially confusing arenas and to give the player a sense of how close to the flag room he or she might be. The rule of thumb was that the greater the distance to the flag, the more stripes or bars would follow the arrow. Exact style of arrow use varied from mapper to mapper. Study the individual maps to determine which works best for your own map. The floor arrows act like decals (if you ever built plastic model kits, these are the little graphic things that you soaked in water and then stuck on the surfaces of the model). The images will appear to be a part of the surface upon which they rest. For the arrows, you will want to build them as nodraw brushes of the proper dimension with a surface raised about 2 units above the floor or wall. For the arrow, use missionpack/proto2/bluea_dcl for the blue arrows and missionpack/proto2/reda_dcl for the red. You may have to scale and rotate the texture to get what you want. For more than three trailing bars, add additional decals and arrange to suit.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 09:59:01 am by |TXC| Neon_Knight » Logged


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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2009, 09:28:28 am »

Name a close combat situation where the shotgun fails.
In my point of view the nailgun works as medium distance weapon too and is superior to the shotgun. NG max dmg: 200
SG max dmg: 100

It can be devastating in long or narrow hallways.
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Falkland
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2009, 09:43:26 am »

I think that TA weapons expecially NG are strictly connected to the runes presence as designed in the original TA gameplay. It was an error integrating them in regular OA gameplays. Their introduction in TA was not only cool but it followed a logic ( much more personal/health powerups = much more powerfull and deathly weapons ... or viceversa )

Having NG or CG or mines on a regular OA map where there's no runes at all has no sense IMHO unless there would be  MHs and RAs every 200 u.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 09:58:50 am by Falkland » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2009, 10:02:10 am »

...
SG max dmg: 100
...

It's 110 hp indeed :-)
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2009, 04:06:46 am »

I think that TA weapons expecially NG are strictly connected to the runes presence as designed in the original TA gameplay. It was an error integrating them in regular OA gameplays.

IMHO if the mappers follow Neon_Knight's advices than the TA weapons will be limited just like the BFG, but their presence will spice up the game.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 06:12:37 am »

After seeing the introduction of the Heavy Machinegun to Quake Live, and the Quake Champions weapon roster having the Super Nailgun, Super Shotgun and Heavy Machinegun as heavier versions of the starter Nailgun, Shotgun and Machinegun, I was wondering if we should treat both the Nailgun and Chaingun as "heavier" versions of the Shotgun and Machinegun in non-Rune maps.

A case could also be made of the Proxy Mine Launcher being a buffed up version of the Grenade Launcher, but I'm having my doubts with it.
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2017, 06:48:46 am »

I was wondering if we should treat both the Nailgun and Chaingun as "heavier" versions of the Shotgun and Machinegun in non-Rune maps.

And that would be translated into which kind of positioning/quantity in the map?

PS: I still have to read the previous posts of this old thread carefully, please excuse me in case the question above sounds stupid.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2017, 07:03:44 am »

If you have MP weapons you should place the Runes in order to counter them. In non-Rune maps, you should treat the weapons as either high-tier or superweapons.

Usually you place low-tier weapons near the player spawnpoints so they have another weapon to rely until they find stronger ones.
You place high-tier weapons in contested areas, far from spawnpoints, so players must battle for them if they want that kind of power in their hands.
You place superweapons in dangerous areas so people must risk their lives in order to get that firepower.
And the mid-tier weapons should be in between the contested areas and the spawnpoints (for example, corridors or safe areas placed far away from spawnpoints) so players don't have too much power after starting but also don't have to battle for an item which may or may not be worth the battle at all.

The same applies to items. Armor and Health have a low/mid/high hierarchy as well, and the powerups either classify as high-tier or superitems. For Runes, you either give a rune of each to the team for their roles in the battlefield (Q3TA style), or put the runes in the middle so players have to battle for them (pseudo-Q2 style, since in this case Runes don't spawn in random spawnpoints).

So, in short, weapon/item tiers for placement:
  • Low tier: Shotgun, Grenade Launcher, +5, Armor Shard - Recommended placement: Near spawnpoints.
  • Mid tier: Rocket Launcher, Plasma Gun, +25, Combat Armor - Recommended placement: Safe areas far from spawnpoints, corridors.
  • High tier: Railgun, Lightning Gun, Nailgun (in Rune maps), Chaingun (in Rune maps), +50, Body Armor, Medkit, Teleporter, Invulnerability, Regeneration, Battle Suit, 30-sec Flight, Haste - Recommended placement: Exposed/contested areas, far from spawnpoints.
  • Super tier: BFG, Prox Launcher, Nailgun (in non-Rune maps), Chaingun (in non-Rune maps), Megahealth, Kamikaze, Quad Damage, Invisibility, 60-sec Flight - Recommended placement: Hazard areas where player has a lot of chances to die, either by the hazard itself or by other players pushing them to it.
  • Runes: Ammo Regen, Scout, Guard, Doubler. - Recommended placement: Either give one or two of each per team (Q3TA style), or put the four of them in the middle so players have to battle for them (pseudo-Q2CTF style).
This is just my thoughts at grasping the whole "weapon/item placement balance" concept, and I may be a bit wrong in this case. I really wish I had learnt all of this a long time ago... Sad
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 12:09:54 pm by Neon_Knight » Logged


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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2017, 09:41:58 am »

From one who almost exclusively plays CTF regularly since 2012:

1. There is nothing "super" about Prox Launcher. The main reason is the mines don't stay long, it's a temporary defense at best. There is a steady stream of enemy players towards your flag, they quickly erase any mines in their path. Pros simply trick-jump over them too fast for the detonation to catch them. Mid-tier players shoot them with rockets. Noobs simply keep stepping on them like a horde of headstrong lemmings - which probably increases someone's frag count but no one cares about that.
In short, mines are a mildly useful delay, nothing more. Surely, getting a direct hit on an enemy carrier and having him asplode at the most inconvenien moment is fun, but that's an exception, an indulgence for pros.
A PL spawn somewhere in your base leads to an enemy camping it spamming mines everywhere and thus delaying *your* team.

2. Nailgun is High tier, not Super. Mostly because it is vastly less useful against someone who refuses to fight you and just runs away to gun your carrier, or carry away your flag. Granted, you can shoot after them and even take one or two shards hit, to further fuel your frustration.
Is very useful for hunting the enemy carrier in their base, though. Nothing like the !surprise! of meeting face-to-face from beyond a corner and fragging a fully buffed up carrier.

3. Shotgun is High tier, because of the solid, unbreakable defense it allows to create, especially on maps where one is given automatically on the start. Try getting away with that flag when half of the enemy team swarms their base, their shotgun fire concentrated on you and you only.
This mages for interesting play, though, as such defense could only be broken using coordinated effort of several players playing distraction or meat shields to let their carrier escape. Or by one God tier pro with uber rocket-jumping skills.


4. Placing GL in your base is a horrible idea. I rarely ever seen it used successfully for defense, but an enemy player camping it and spamming grenades can mess your team dynamics up. Especially with damage to self turned off.

5. LG is Super Tier, simply because of its ability to off the carrier quickly (160 DPS hitscan, yo!). Placing one anywhere near the bases results in unbreakable defense. Even one competent defender with a LG is "abandon all hope ye who enters here".

6. On a right kind of map, in competent hands, with the damage to self turned off, Quad is undisputable God tier. Because it turns a competent flag carrier into an ICBM. Here he is grabbing your flag, Blam! and he is descending onto his base, and scores in 2 seconds flat. Pray that your team had at least one pro with a railgun who anticipated this.

7. Chaingun is Mid tier because of its low usefulness against a retreating opponent. It's only good for defense, along with Shotgun and Nailgun.
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2017, 10:02:29 am »

P.S. And BFG is not as super as you would think.
In base assault becasse freshly spawned players won't get fragged in one hit, but rather catapulted away from further explosions, so your unprofessionally long burst goes to waste.
An avid BFG user myself, I only fire in short bursts of 2 or 3 shots.
In hunting the carrier... well, because he'll be running from you like his pants were on fire. Good luck hitting someone who wants to be as far away from you as possible, preferably behind cover or his highly expendable teammates.
Also, holding one draws all the enemy team's fire to you and you frag quickly.
I'd say, in a noob's hands BFG is less dangerous than a RL! Shocked
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2017, 02:58:24 pm »

Interesting points. What about the Runes? (Ammo Regen, Doubler, Guard, Scout)
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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2017, 10:35:11 am »

Unfortunately, I *never* saw one of these in my life  Lips Sealed
I rarely venture outside "F: ctf for stupid" nowadays
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2017, 11:22:09 am »

Default is g_runes 0. They work the same as in Team Arena. They were introduced, as mentioned in the early posts, in order to counter the new weapons, so they don't throw the balance out of the window.
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« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2017, 01:25:11 am »

Let's see if I can somehow contribute to this thread with some reminders.

- The only weapon that can counter "invulnerability" is the proximity mines launcher. So you may wish to include both in the same map, to allow players see the "juiced effect" (bubble of blood).

- Keep in mind that TA items do not spawn in old mods, so be sure your map has got enough weapons to be playable also without them. If you like it, an option is to use "team" key to make them spawn alternately with a classic item: that way, in old mods it will always be the classic item to spawn.
This should give no problem with weapons, ammo and holdables... I don't know it may have some kind of drawback with runes (e.g. depending from g_runes value).
Maybe Neon Knight may want to write a "suggested teamed entities" list?

- "Classic" usage for runes is to place a set of them in each half of CTF maps, and use spawnflags to allow only that side's team get it. However it is also possible to place runes in without team limitation. On team-limited runes, usage of "notfree/1" is highly advisable (since nobody can pick up a team-limited rune in non-team-based modes), and if you placed both team-based and non-team-based runes (aiming for different gametypes), you may wish to also use "notteam/1" on the non-team-based ones.

See also: http://openarena.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Weapon_and_item_placement

The two links about the Team Arena items in the opening post are dead, however those pages are available on archive.org: here and here. If you prefer reading about the stuff coming from Team Arena/Missionpack on OA wiki, they are here (weapons), here (invulnerability and kamikaze), here ("Runes" powerups).
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 06:04:00 am by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2017, 06:20:10 am »

- Keep in mind that TA items do not spawn in old mods, so be sure your map has got enough weapons to be playable also without them. If you like it, an option is to use "team" key to make them spawn alternately with a classic item: that way, in old mods it will always be the classic item to spawn.
In my opinion it is not worth to try to balance the map for more than one setting.

I added the items to baseoa, at a time where we talked about the "missionpack" project and that baseoa and missionpack would exist side by side. I added the weapons to baseoa, so that people creating maps for missionpack would not have to balance it for two games. It was not the plan that the weapons should be used in baseoa maps, it was to ensure that the missionpack maps would be playable in baseoa too. The runes are disabled by default because a lot of stock OA maps at that time already had them and enabling them destroyed the gameplay of those maps. None of the maps had TA weapons, so I considered them safe to add because they would no affect any existing map... or so I thought.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2017, 08:56:01 am »

In that case, it would have been a good idea to ask which maps had TA weapons/items before doing such a change.
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