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Author Topic: Place of Two Deaths (Q1-DM1)  (Read 13601 times)
anyone
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« on: December 14, 2009, 09:52:58 am »

(just to let you know I'm trying to redo Q1-DM1)




(thanks for your attention, have a nice day)
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2009, 12:56:28 pm »

I'm really temped to write what I am actually thinking now ... anyway .... have you ever played the game ? If not , try to play on oa_dm1 map.
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2009, 01:11:09 pm »

have you ever played the game ? If not , try to play on oa_dm1 map.

I think he played the game, since the screenshots have OA items. But yeah, why redoing, why not just retexturizing? Kit89's version of oa_dm1 is really cool. Don't get us wrong your textures and maps are welcome if GPLv2, but why reinventing the wheel?
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Todo list: 1. q3dm17 textures replacement (95% done)
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2009, 01:21:37 pm »

but why reinventing the wheel?

See: oa_dm3
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
Progress of OA3 currently occurs behind closed doors alone

I do not provide technical support either.

new code development on github
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2009, 02:10:57 pm »

ANYONE!!! ^^

but why reinventing the wheel?

See: oa_dm3
And oa_dm5.

I think he played the game, since the screenshots have OA items. But yeah, why redoing, why not just retexturizing? Kit89's version of oa_dm1 is really cool. Don't get us wrong your textures and maps are welcome if GPLv2, but why reinventing the wheel?
Hey, you forgot me. Tongue

We can do a collaboration, why not?
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2009, 02:23:53 pm »

Oh, my mistake Sad. I thought you want to redo the map from scratch, but now I know that you are an experienced mapper, so you know better what to do. I just shut up.
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2009, 03:03:30 pm »


I don't think that oa_dm3 and oa_dm5 can be the right examples as a successfull remake : they look better with better textures , so they are aestetically better , but the gameplay is a disaster. Both maps are unbalanced ( 3 MH , INV , QUAD , BS on oa_dm3 ...  ) , they look darker with default settings , routes are not well connected as items too.
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2009, 03:24:44 pm »

Well... the question to all the same complaints is... How the hell on earth we are supposed to improve the maps which we've working if we have next to no feedback?
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 03:39:36 pm »

Well... the question to all the same complaints is... How the hell on earth we are supposed to improve the maps which we've working if we have next to no feedback?

I think there were/are enough inputs about how a map should look like , how items should be connected , how balanced a map should be ... , all made by mid/high experienced players : honestly if a map does not have the correct fundamentals , I don't think that any feedback could make the difference.
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anyone
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 05:16:51 pm »

Hi, thanks everyone for the feedbacks, here are a bunch of answers regarding the "wheel" Cheesy

"have you ever played the game"
Yes, both Q1 & OA

"But yeah, why redoing, why not just retexturizing?"
I'm trying to clean up the map because of a few z-fighting issues (you know surfaces overlapping) caused by Q1 design (it's something coming from the original source and it takes some time to fix. I've spotted something like 5 areas with that issue in the last version coming with OA -- I just downloaded it a couple of days ago, maybe another version of this map is already available). I'm also trying to make it closer to the original (as Q1 fans often seem a bit disappointed).

"I don't think that oa_dm3 and oa_dm5 can be the right examples as a successfull remake (...) the gameplay is a disaster"
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not trying to make a point, I got a crap memory) but I'm almost sure I replaced each item from Q1 with the closest item available in OA, reduced the lighting to make it closer to the original and kept the overall design intact. I know both DM3 & DM5 got their flaws but you'll have to blame (respectively) John Romero and Tim Willits.

(EDIT: There was a useless remark concerning another useless argumentation here, but now it's gone, pay no attention… thanks)

I realized (a bit too late) that a couple of guys were still working on DM1… I should have checked that out before starting the work, my bad. Anyway, I kept most modifications from the released version in OA; so, with the new .map, it shouldn't be a problem to improve the gameplay and balance items. I think that's why giving sources away is a good idea (I like how DM5 teleporter have been replaced -- in fact, lots of people are more talented than I when it comes to gameplay balance, that why I'm not altering the maps myself).

Thanks for reading.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 05:41:41 pm by anyone » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2009, 05:50:44 pm »

Well, what about a triple collaboration, anyone? Grin Your version seems to look really good. I'll send you the work we've done so far, if you like.
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2009, 07:09:11 pm »

Your version seems to look really good.

I do not agree ... it's definitely DARKER ... it's painly playing maps textured with darker texture and with the default colors that OA models have = insufficient contrast and since it seems that OA will never have bright/PM skins nor by default but also nor as an option ; else it does really not make sense blaming players using their "enhanced visual effects".

There are some remakes of DMx Q1 series also for CPMA : pay attention to the geometry , to the light and to the texture themes , because those remakes are really enjoable also with default r_* settings http://www.swelt.nildram.co.uk/maps.htm


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anyone
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2009, 05:06:50 am »

it's definitely DARKER ...
They seem too bright, basically

There you go, to prove there' no hard feelings, I'm cooking this one just for you.



Naaaa, I'm kidding.

Okay, joking apart, let me just finish this one, then I'll be working with Kit89 and |TXC| Neon_Knight to balance the stuff and finally, if it doesn't suit yourself, download the .map, download the textures sources, reduce contrast, increase brightness and make any modification you want to the level, I suppose you know how to (if you don't, I won't mind showing you). Anyway, until then keep cool: nobody's forcing you to look at that version, or this one.
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I'll wear my badge, a vinyl sticker with big block letters adherent to my chest, tells to all your friends: "I am a visitor here, I am not permanent"
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2009, 06:32:40 am »

A suggestion I can throw to you is to go through the map in devmap mode using Tony/blue as your skin, and watch for pitch black spots. (I've used cg_thirdperson 1 and cg_thirdpersonrange 100) That should help you to see where to threw some lighting. As sago pointed out in some other thread, players should be visible in the map with r_gamma 1. What I've done in am_underworks2 was to threw some light entities with very small values (10, 25 max) and white light, so the map doesn't look too screwed.

EDIT: And try not to use portals, use model teleporters instead. Cosmo made some new ones. Portals make the engine to draw even more than the neccesary.

And my latest advice and I end: you should checkout the latest SVN revision and work with that to make the maps. There's plenty of stuff to use there.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 07:26:39 am by |TXC| Neon_Knight » Logged


"Detailed" is nice, but if it gets in the way of clarity, it ceases being a nice addition and becomes a problem. - TVT
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2009, 08:59:31 am »


There you go, to prove there' no hard feelings, I'm cooking this one just for you.

Naaaa, I'm kidding.


I am not kidding too if I'd suggest to use those settings for release a map in alpha stage ( no textures , max brightness ) : in this way it's easy for mid/high experienced players that would test the map to concentrate themselves in evaluating items distribution , routes connections , etc ...

another suggestion for the very early design of a new map , at the beginning is to connect main points , main rooms starting with long corridors and _only_ then inserting obstacles ( eg like void/lava places with a little peak where to jump over to pass ) for a cleaner design.
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anyone
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2009, 11:17:45 am »

to concentrate themselves in evaluating items distribution , routes connections
(...)
very early design of a new map
(...)
for a cleaner design.

Amazing.

I understand your concerns (regarding a good map design and lighting) and agree with you although I grew up shooting at green guys moving along dark brown walls (yup, that was the nineties, I'm used to that)… But what don't you understand in my previous post?

Rough summary:
"I'm not making an original map from scratch: the layout is not mine. I'm just trying to port a fourteen years old level -as true as possible to the original- as a base to create a suitable deathmatch level that should also look like the '96 stuff"

I don't know how you managed to read:
"Hey! I'm building a completely brand new level from the ground up, and I'm planning to make it final without play testing and for no reason whatsoever, I'm doing my best to make it dark as hell, unbalanced and I won't allow anybody to make my baby play better. Wouldn't that be fun?"

Geez… Do you feel THAT underestimated, betrayed and hurt to actually interpret what I wrote in a way you could complain about it, or do I just suck at making myself clear? (if it's my fault, I'd like to sincerely apologize for this whole remark -- if not, thanks for your honest opinion, I wrote it down and will consider it when the time comes).
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I'll wear my badge, a vinyl sticker with big block letters adherent to my chest, tells to all your friends: "I am a visitor here, I am not permanent"
(The postal service "district sleeps alone tonight")
Promoted Mapper of the Century by some CPMA mid/high experienced player (luvyoalot, man)
Falkland
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2009, 11:34:03 am »

to concentrate themselves in evaluating items distribution , routes connections
(...)
very early design of a new map
(...)
for a cleaner design.

Amazing.

But what don't you understand in my previous post?

You are quoting pieces of 2 different thoughts of my reply to try an operation that in a forensic environment will cause for sure your radiation/prosecution.

Anyway , the summary of what I wrote :

1. release a raw (remake or from scratch) map in very alpha stage with as plain textured and bright as possible to evaluate map structure and fundamentals
2. connect main rooms/places with large/long corridors and then designing eventual obstacles , jumpers , trick-places-where-perform-jump-to-pass-obstacles ... when trying to make a new map or rearrange an old one.

After that I can say you are a great mapper , your maps were overplayed in CPMA and they are now in QuakeLive , so I will vote for you as the mapper of the year ... of the century .... of the millennium ... of all the time .
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anyone
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« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2009, 05:22:53 pm »

Blah.
... *sigh*



Anyway, still working on the stuff, most halls are now larger, a new staircase has been added to "cut the map in half", lava gap is located further (leaping to the armor is harder now), clip brushes here and there to ease players' navigation, various texture adjustments, the whole map structure is easier to edit.


Still to do: missing textures, lighting and items placing.

EDIT: The bridge is now always on, the quad is a "secret" again and hint brush mostly did their work. |TXC| Neon_Knight is now placing items, I'm going back to 'toshop to make a few new textures.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 01:28:08 pm by anyone » Logged

I'll wear my badge, a vinyl sticker with big block letters adherent to my chest, tells to all your friends: "I am a visitor here, I am not permanent"
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Promoted Mapper of the Century by some CPMA mid/high experienced player (luvyoalot, man)
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« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2009, 08:03:46 am »

A brown map! YES!

I think the fire could be less 'jetty' as in the shape could be better than just some bright beam thing, like maybe have some fire shader. This will mess with contrast.

Love the lighitng. As for the other posts, note they'll NEVER be satisfied until it looks like this
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
Progress of OA3 currently occurs behind closed doors alone

I do not provide technical support either.

new code development on github
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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2009, 11:31:28 pm »

I am pretty excited(Q1_DM1 was my favorite), can't wait to get my hands on a playable version!
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