Some question about Copyrights etc

[ALIEN]

Hello I have some question:

First:

- Quake 3 Arena Demo 1.08 is free for distribution
- Quake 3 Arena Point Release 1.32 is free for distribution

So why Open Arena don't include paks from Demo and Point Release 1.32 ?

No benefits from extra files like textures and maps ?

Second:
Can I take OA 0.85 and rename baseoa to baseq3, add Defrag mod + use DFEngine.exe to load Defrag mod and save the compatibility, and put it in one zip file on my page ?

Defrag mod cannot be used with OA any more due protocol change from 68 to 71 - someone explain me why and what are differences between those 2 numbers ?

[Graion Dilach]

About Defrag, I don't know.

About Quake 3... you're halfly right, but OTOH, you're wrong as well. The demo's freeness comes from that it's a demo and the point release's freeness is derived from that the source code became GPLed.

But only the engine, the source code. Not assets. This isn't Warzone 2100, where every sound, every bit of texture became free. This game's technical stance is aactually more closer to OpenTTD, that we've got a game... but we need our own databases for it (OpenArena bundled with all of then, OpenTTD uses OpenGFX, OpenSFX and OpenMSX, respectly). Neither of the Quake 3 assets (models, textures, maps, shaders, sounds) became free to distribution, AFAIK.

And extracting their content is against the law. Although rebuilding them completely from scratch isn't. And that's the urrent point of OpenArena.

[ALIEN]

But you don't extract them - you put free pak's in free game so what is the problem ?

[...]

Defrag mod cannot be used with OA any more due protocol change from 68 to 71 - someone explain me why and what are differences between those 2 numbers ?

I'm not sure what you are talking about with Defrag not working with OA. There are quite a few defrag servers for oa that run the defrag mod with no problem. I can also run the defrag mod in single player mode as well.

[Udi]

But you don't extract them - you put free pak's in free game so what is the problem ?

I've attached the full text of the demo license. But here's the outtake:

2.   Prohibitions. You, either directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:
...
g.   disassemble, reverse engineer, decompile, modify or alter the Software including, without limitation, creating or developing extra or add-on levels for the Software;
...
k.   prepare or develop derivative works based upon the Software;

So you cannot take out parts, put them into another game, and distribute that game. That's the prohibitions coming from the Q3 demo. But OpenArena also has a license, which also generates some prohibitions, and every asset which is not compatible with that license (GPLv2) is out of the question.

[fromhell]

FREE AS IN BEER ISN'T ALWAYS FREE AS IN SPEECH; just because you can obtain it for free doesn't grant a right to do what you want with it. The demo is provided by id software for promotional purposes to give you more incentive to purchase Quake III Arena, or even go to Quake Live.
Q3 data is copyrighted  - the whole point of OA is to not exploit any commercial or copyrighted data at all! This is no lazy patchwork trainwreck project. If you try that yourself... then don't cry to me when the wrath of Todd Hollenshead or Marty Stratton strikes hard.

[fromhell]

And the protocol change is just a number change - it helps weed out the incompatible servers that bring unexplainable error messages such as "invalid folder". Unlike Q3, OA is an evolving game without a hardpressed-and-fixed dataset, so this is one of the only ways we can maintain a smoother play experience.

[PopeJo]

Defrag mod cannot be used with OA any more due protocol change from 68 to 71 - someone explain me why and what are differences between those 2 numbers ?

I'm not sure what you are talking about with Defrag not working with OA. There are quite a few defrag servers for oa that run the defrag mod with no problem. I can also run the defrag mod in single player mode as well.

he is talking about http://cggdev.org/
and no, unless you compile it yourself, it won't work.
but as dot-dot-dot said, the normal defrag mod will work with OA.

the protocol changes mean, OA does not want to be compatible with quake3. some quake3 mods will work, some will work with bugs, some not at all and you wont be able to play on quake3 servers, but only only on custom openarena servers.

[ALIEN]

Udi: thx for explanation, now I know what I want.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with Defrag not working with OA. There are quite a few defrag servers for oa that run the defrag mod with no problem. I can also run the defrag mod in single player mode as well.

he is talking about http://cggdev.org/
and no, unless you compile it yourself, it won't work.
but as dot-dot-dot said, the normal defrag mod will work with OA.

the protocol changes mean, OA does not want to be compatible with quake3. some quake3 mods will work, some will work with bugs, some not at all and you wont be able to play on quake3 servers, but only only on custom openarena servers.

Defrag mod can be RUN at OA 0.85 but it cannot be used to online play at Defrag servers with rankings and for any competition/site with tables because quake3.exe can't play those demos. That is what I mean.

I come with solution for this that I type in my first post:
"Can I take OA 0.85 and rename baseoa to baseq3, add Defrag mod + use DFEngine.exe to load Defrag mod and save the compatibility, and put it in one zip file on my page as free game to download ?"

Since OA is free, DFEngine is based on Q3 GPL source I can do it without any copyright problems ?

[PopeJo]

Udi: thx for explanation, now I know what I want.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with Defrag not working with OA. There are quite a few defrag servers for oa that run the defrag mod with no problem. I can also run the defrag mod in single player mode as well.

he is talking about http://cggdev.org/
and no, unless you compile it yourself, it won't work.
but as dot-dot-dot said, the normal defrag mod will work with OA.

the protocol changes mean, OA does not want to be compatible with quake3. some quake3 mods will work, some will work with bugs, some not at all and you wont be able to play on quake3 servers, but only only on custom openarena servers.

Defrag mod can be RUN at OA 0.85 but it cannot be used to online play at Defrag servers with rankings and for any competition/site with tables because quake3.exe can't play those demos. That is what I mean.

sry, I overestimated you there

you can't connect to quake3 servers. - the mod is irrelevant here. its not dependent on the defrag mod, but is the same with any other, or no mod at all. since the protocol changed (every OA past 071), you won't be able to connect to quake3 servers, like these: http://www.q3df.org/server

not as good as http://www.q3df.org/server (for q3/ioquake), but we had a fastest runs defrag CPM server (for openarena 081/085) with official stats, but the server is down atm: http://rainbow.furver.se/index.php?name=Rainbow_Maps

I come with solution for this that I type in my first post:
"Can I take OA 0.85 and rename baseoa to baseq3, add Defrag mod + use DFEngine.exe to load Defrag mod and save the compatibility, and put it in one zip file on my page as free game to download ?"

no, you can't save the compatibility by that

Defrag mod cannot be used with OA any more due protocol change from 68 to 71 - someone explain me why and what are differences between those 2 numbers ?

protocoll 68 clients can only connect to protocoll 68 servers
protocoll 71 clients can only connect to protocoll 71 servers

why?
see here:

And the protocol change is just a number change - it helps weed out the incompatible servers that bring unexplainable error messages such as "invalid folder". Unlike Q3, OA is an evolving game without a hardpressed-and-fixed dataset, so this is one of the only ways we can maintain a smoother play experience.

[Falkland]

[...] protocol change from 68 to 71 - someone explain me why and what are differences between those 2 numbers ?

Yes , sure .... 68+3 = 71 ... it's simple ...

Have you already tried to rename demos from .dm_71 to .dm_68 , then to run in quake3 ?
If you have the same version of defrag installed , the demos should be played.

EDIT : forget it , since the maps are in baseoa/baseq3 , you should obtain a baseoa/baseq3 mismatch error.

[ALIEN]

I come with solution for this that I type in my first post:
"Can I take OA 0.85 and rename baseoa to baseq3, add Defrag mod + use DFEngine.exe to load Defrag mod and save the compatibility, and put it in one zip file on my page as free game to download ?"

no, you can't save the compatibility by that

Why ? I already did this and it works. I only ask about copyright matter.

[PopeJo]

I come with solution for this that I type in my first post:
"Can I take OA 0.85 and rename baseoa to baseq3, add Defrag mod + use DFEngine.exe to load Defrag mod and save the compatibility, and put it in one zip file on my page as free game to download ?"

no, you can't save the compatibility by that

Why ? I already did this and it works. I only ask about copyright matter.

you know fairly well what I mean, I said it 3 times:

protocoll 68 clients can only connect to protocoll 68 servers
protocoll 71 clients can only connect to protocoll 71 serves

please be so kind and elaborate on the subject, so i get a chance to understand what you want to do, too.

what exactly is it you are trying to accomplish?

use http://cggdev.org/ with 085 to connect to openarena defrag servers (protocoll 71)?

[ALIEN]

I want to use paks from 0.85, put them into empty baseq3 folder, add defrag mod, add DFEngine. I already did this and my question is: Can this pack be distributed online as free game ? Any copyright issue ?

[Falkland]

I want to use paks from 0.85, put them into empty baseq3 folder, add defrag mod, add DFEngine. I already did this and my question is: Can this pack be distributed online as free game ? Any copyright issue ?

I think you can use it for your personal use but you are explicitely prohibited to distribuite it.

[Falkland]

use http://cggdev.org/ with 085 to connect to openarena defrag servers (protocoll 71)?

I've answered that 71 = 68+3 because basically there's not any significant structural protocol change between the "old" protocol 68 and the "new" protocol 71 ...

I remember that jackthompson posted the instruction and the source of a q3 1.32 client for OA080.

And anyway "protocol" cvar wasn't still set as readonly and protected in the q3 1.32 , so you can append "+set protocol 71" to the commandline while launching the client.

[Cacatoes]

You can distribute OA, I suppose you can do the same with Defrag mod (they may not give explicit authorization, but I doubt they'd complain if other websites hosts their files), and I think dfengine is GPL so free to distribute too. You could then distribute this pack as a whole on your website.

About that protocol cvar, why then does it remain read-only in OA ? If there are simple ways to make clients compatible then we should do it.

[ALIEN]

You can distribute OA, I suppose you can do the same with Defrag mod (they may not give explicit authorization, but I doubt they'd complain if other websites hosts their files), and I think dfengine is GPL so free to distribute too. You could then distribute this pack as a whole on your website.

About that protocol cvar, why then does it remain read-only in OA ? If there are simple ways to make clients compatible then we should do it.

Thank you that is what I need !

[Cacatoes]

I was lazy to find that post but some other informations also there: http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=2292.0