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Neon_Knight
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« on: November 19, 2010, 05:23:08 PM »

Here's a map which I wanted to do since I've learnt how to use GTK/NetRadiant.
It's a pseudo-tutorial map. It starts with the player in a course where he can get used to some of the weapons, (I still have to figure out a way to remove weapons/ammo from the player) recognize items, and it ends in a 1on1 battle against a bot in a separated arena, with the fraglimit in 5 frags, so the arena layout is pretty simple. The bot enters to the arena when the player ends the course, so both of them have chances to win.

I didn't got convinced with the looks of the 1on1 arena so far.

To load the map, go to the SP and enter in oa-tutorial.

I can't enter to the FTP account, I can't remember my pass. -.- So, by now, you have a mediafire link.

Link:
http://www.onykage.com/files/armageddonman/published/mine/oa-tutorial-a2.pk3

Screenshots:
Soon.

I'm hearing suggestions.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 10:34:15 PM by Neon_Knight » Logged


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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2010, 06:30:31 AM »

Seems a nice idea. I will try it!
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 07:06:01 AM by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2010, 07:06:11 AM »

Tested... seems good, but...

- Maybe you may place signs if the first room, to indicate the way for the items tutorial and the way to the match.
- Maybe the signs that talk about "instructions" may be placed at a lower height, to be easier to read, even with a modified cg_fov (strange for a newbie, I admit) or with r_picmip not 0 (easy for a newbie, since the default is 1).
- Why do the signs with the icons of the items contain two icons, one small and one big?
- Isn't there a model for the invulnerability item?
- the official name of the red armor is "body armor" or "heavy armor"? And maybe the official name of "haste" is "speed"... right?
- maybe giving some health during the tutorial may be good... a newbie risks to kill himself with rockets and grenades... and if you get killed, you skip the rest of the tutorial, reaching the arena.
- after I killed Skelebot once, i did not find it again: I switched to spectator mode and noticed it did get stuck somewhere... I suppose a spawn point in the wrong place.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2010, 07:24:34 AM »

- Maybe you may place signs if the first room, to indicate the way for the items tutorial and the way to the match.
Will be done in the next version.

- Maybe the signs that talk about "instructions" may be placed at a lower height, to be easier to read, even with a modified cg_fov (strange for a newbie, I admit) or with r_picmip not 0 (easy for a newbie, since the default is 1).
Something like a... "billboard"?

- Why do the signs with the icons of the items contain two icons, one small and one big?
I hadn't any idea. Tongue
Jokes aside, I didn't knew what to do with them. I was thinking in stick figures (such as those of XKCD and Portal's panels) which showed the effects of the items. I'll implement that in the next version.

- Isn't there a model for the invulnerability item?
No, AFAIK. There was one but was scrapped.

- the official name of the red armor is "body armor" or "heavy armor"? And maybe the official name of "haste" is "speed"... right?
I'm using the official names for the items.

- maybe giving some health during the tutorial may be good... a newbie risks to kill himself with rockets and grenades... and if you get killed, you skip the rest of the tutorial, reaching the arena.
Good one, however, I need to master triggers and targets before doing that. :/ There's a way to avoid the tutorial, since you can enter directly into the arena without having to do the course.

- after I killed Skelebot once, i did not find it again: I switched to spectator mode and noticed it did get stuck somewhere... I suppose a spawn point in the wrong place.
That was a bug, I'll check what I'm doing wrong and try to fix that.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 09:26:39 AM by |TXC| Neon_Knight » Logged


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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2010, 07:28:41 AM »

I've noticed the same Skelebot disappearence as Gig, sometimes it happens at the first time, when you enter the 1on1 arena.

Some weapons should have more ammo than 2, like the LG and ChG, beginners have to notice that these two weapons fire continously. Can you make some advanced trigger mechanism: like you have to shoot a far object with the railgun, or you have to shoot a grenade behind a wall, or you have to use the rockets splash damage to open the door? A rocket jump should be optional to learn, it may be hard for beginners, also the sign should say "aim down" instead of "hold down".

Can you make texts appear on the hud, like the frag messages? We could use those to inform players.
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Gig
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2010, 10:55:20 AM »

- Isn't there a model for the invulnerability item?
No, AFAIK. There was one but was scrapped.
This is bad. I suppose we should open a thread in the "models" section of the forum: it is not acceptable to do not have any 3D model for an item... it may even be ugly, but a model is needed!

Quote from: |TXC| Neon_Knight
- the official name of the red armor is "body armor" or "heavy armor"? And maybe the official name of "haste" is "speed"... right?
I'm using the official names for the items.
Official = taken from ....?
The Quake 3 online manual talked about heavy armor and haste... but I just tested in openarena... using the "item_test" q3 map (that is linked in some thread)... when you take the red armor it writes "heavy armor" (and stangely, when you take the yellow armor, it writes simply "armor"... I thought it wrote "combat armor" :-/ ), and when you take the "haste", it writes "speed". Note: to see the text when you pickup something, you have to disable cg_alwaysweaponbar.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2010, 02:18:12 PM »

- Isn't there a model for the invulnerability item?
No, AFAIK. There was one but was scrapped.
This is bad. I suppose we should open a thread in the "models" section of the forum: it is not acceptable to do not have any 3D model for an item... it may even be ugly, but a model is needed!
I've proposed that to Cosmo via IRC once, but I don't know if he did something. But, yes, not only the model for the item is needed, there's also no forcefield effect.

The one I'm talking about can be found in this thread. It was sent to the SVNC thread, but it got rejection because of no license file, IICR.
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2010, 03:29:06 PM »

I experienced the problem with skelebot disappearing too.

And I found the lack of health problematic as well.

I once posted my idea here: http://files.poulsander.com/~poul19/public_files/intooa.pk3

It was a lot more simple. The player starts in a room where he can crawl to get a plasma gun or jump to get the yellow armor then enter the teleport to get into the arena. Really basic movement and the player gets a slight advantage then entering the arena.


The ultimate solution is possible somewhere in between.

Let the player choose between 3 roads at the human start location. A basic, an advanced and a directly to the battle. There is always the chance that the player have never played an FPS before but only started the game because it was on the office computer.

Let the player enter the arena with the bot with some advantage. Like the yellow armor.

A thing I am a little uncertain about is if the map should be kept in one plane or not. Multiple levels makes a game more interesting but the player might be more interested to know how to turn and move at that point.
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2010, 03:19:22 AM »

what about doing a "assault curse" ? (or a "course of the combatant"? I dont really know the english expression for this)

I mean, just a circuit, a litlle like a defrag map, where we would do some basic jumps upper a barrier or where we would crawl under something...
Then, some diferents things to show how works every weapon, a shooting range for the rail where we would have to shot on a target which moves to open the door, a glass in between you and a button and just a hole in your right for the grenade,...
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2010, 05:53:00 AM »

I experienced the problem with skelebot disappearing too.

And I found the lack of health problematic as well.
Adressed in the next version.

It was a lot more simple. The player starts in a room where he can crawl to get a plasma gun or jump to get the yellow armor then enter the teleport to get into the arena. Really basic movement and the player gets a slight advantage then entering the arena.
I'll check it.

Let the player choose between 3 roads at the human start location. A basic, an advanced and a directly to the battle. There is always the chance that the player have never played an FPS before but only started the game because it was on the office computer.
Hmmm... something like the first Quake's introduction map? I've never thought in that last part.

Doing three maps with 1on1 battles at the end of the courses will work as well? That was my original idea for the tutorial.

A thing I am a little uncertain about is if the map should be kept in one plane or not. Multiple levels makes a game more interesting but the player might be more interested to know how to turn and move at that point.
Well, Quake Live's training map has two planes.

what about doing a "assault curse" ? (or a "course of the combatant"? I dont really know the english expression for this)

I mean, just a circuit, a litlle like a defrag map, where we would do some basic jumps upper a barrier or where we would crawl under something...
Then, some diferents things to show how works every weapon, a shooting range for the rail where we would have to shot on a target which moves to open the door, a glass in between you and a button and just a hole in your right for the grenade,...
It's one of the things we're discussing here.
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2010, 06:24:07 AM »

I tested the version of Sago, too. It is nice to have the player learn how to simply jump and crouch, but I don't understand the difference between the two teleporters.

A question: using your maps, they are placed as the first tier (you may have to disable the pk3 of Neon_Knight to see the map from Sago, there)... but this "locks" all the other tiers, like I never played those maps (I suppose because of the engine finds the info about completed maps in q3config.cfg not coherent with the tiers). If I remove your packs, the tiers return unlocked... but I never completed the fraglimit in your test maps... is there the risk that, if I complete your test map, it will "corrupt" the data and simply removing your pk3s will not unlock the tiers again?

For the moment, I backed up my q3config.cfg file.
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2010, 08:07:34 AM »

Nah, I don't think so. It didn't happened with q3dm0, it won't happen here.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2010, 09:01:09 AM »

My only concern now is... how do I make a shootable trigger? I mean, I have a bullseye in the Railgun room, far away from the door. What should I do in order to make that, when shooted, that bullseye opens the door.
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2010, 10:33:40 AM »

My only concern now is... how do I make a shootable trigger? I mean, I have a bullseye in the Railgun room, far away from the door. What should I do in order to make that, when shooted, that bullseye opens the door.

how about adding a "func_button" with a "health"-key of something appropriate. put a bullseye texture on the button and connect it to the door. i'm planning on doing something similar in my space map Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2010, 03:04:51 PM »

Nah, I don't think so. It didn't happened with q3dm0, it won't happen here.
To what sentence is related this one?
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2010, 03:27:19 PM »

is there the risk that, if I complete your test map, it will "corrupt" the data and simply removing your pk3s will not unlock the tiers again?
This one.
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2010, 03:37:30 PM »

Excuse me, but... What's the link with q3dm0? Q3dm0 was in Q3A from scratch... I'm talking about adding this map as a first tier on an old OpenArena installation...
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2010, 04:05:39 PM »

This tutorial map is marked with a special key/value combo in the .arena file, the same key/value combo used in order to mark q3dm0 as the tutorial map.

That's the relationship.
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2010, 08:38:16 PM »

Uploading the map, this is the changelog:

- New rooms, with some obstacles.
- Added messages.
- Fixed a problem with the bots not appearing.
- Some of the previous rooms were improved. (Grenade Launcher and Railgun)
- Rocketjumping wall removed in the RL area.
- Added more health in the main arena.
- Replaced many banners.
- Many more fixes.
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2010, 08:42:39 PM »

New version of the map uploaded. Enjoy and comment. ^^
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« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2010, 05:19:28 AM »

I got several critics or remarks:

- At several places, the light cones are drown at their extremities and draw circles or rectangles.
- Why not putting minigun ammo on the ground instead of giving them ? The player might not realize he had collected some and my not switch weapon.
- This map kinda assumes autoswitch weapon is on. (I rather wish it was off by default)
- Nothing forces someone to use that weapon or another to continue, this is of course normal, but that makes these steps superfluous.
- I can't read the signs with my picmip settings.
- A texture overlap in the grenade launcher room.
- There is a way to make use of GL necessary, see moixie's screenshot. An aspect of the GL is by bounces you can access areas which your player can't, except here it can. GL use seems necessary as it is, but only to hit the trigger, not to "reach" it. Idea: burry the trigger on the ground, and put a grid through which the player can shoot.
- (I'm boring but curious) Any way to make the map "say" something rather than centerprint it ? That would allow logs in console which may also be introduced.
- Centerprint is text which is read, it's more logic if signs are directly read rather than "reading something which only purpose is to tell you to read something elsewhere".
- A general idea is: if you want to teach something, bring new stuff progressively. This goes a bit against the museum idea, and against exhaustivity.
- I've tried several times but no bot appears once in the arena.
- More lava jumps/obstacle could be interesting, right now you can cross the lava "by luck" simply by letting you falling and walking, which is normal behaviour. People also learn by repetition Tongue

There are of course many points which could make an introduction or tutorial map for OA (should we teach weapon use, console use, commands, gametypes, strafejumping ...) etc.
Tremulous has an additionnal hud (a "tutorial cvar") which is displayed and which tells about which keys are used to change weapons or such. I thought the idea was interesting but could be pushed further.

Edit: a few additional infos.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 06:55:14 AM by Cacatoes » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2010, 05:19:22 PM »

- At several places, the light cones are drown at their extremities and draw circles or rectangles.
That's a problem with a texture of the game. oa_minia, as it comes with oa0.8.1, among other maps, suffers the same issue.

- Why not putting minigun ammo on the ground instead of giving them ? The player might not realize he had collected some and my not switch weapon.
- This map kinda assumes autoswitch weapon is on. (I rather wish it was off by default)
- Nothing forces someone to use that weapon or another to continue, this is of course normal, but that makes these steps superfluous.
About 1: Good one.
About 2 and 3: That's something I thought from the first moment, but I don't know how to make triggers/targets to deplete ammo. There's a way to make the players to start with -100 bullets (so the Machinegun is left with 0) but if it extracts when the ammo count is lower than that, then the game for some reason makes the weapons to have infinite ammo.

- I can't read the signs with my picmip settings.
Then use normal picmip. Tongue
Jokes aside, I don't know what to do with the shader, it has the nopicmip keyword, but it still does the same.

- A texture overlap in the grenade launcher room.
Nice pointing. I'll check that later.

- There is a way to make use of GL necessary, see moixie's screenshot. An aspect of the GL is by bounces you can access areas which your player can't, except here it can. GL use seems necessary as it is, but only to hit the trigger, not to "reach" it. Idea: burry the trigger on the ground, and put a grid through which the player can shoot.
Another good one.

- (I'm boring but curious) Any way to make the map "say" something rather than centerprint it ? That would allow logs in console which may also be introduced.
- Centerprint is text which is read, it's more logic if signs are directly read rather than "reading something which only purpose is to tell you to read something elsewhere".
Not, as far as I know, aside of the "billboards" and messages. And I really wish that my english would be that perfect. -.-

- A general idea is: if you want to teach something, bring new stuff progressively. This goes a bit against the museum idea, and against exhaustivity.
Progressively as what? I don't get the idea. -.-

- I've tried several times but no bot appears once in the arena.
Strange, all the times I've tested, bots appeared all the time.
Weren't you using the older version of the map, which had this same issue?

- More lava jumps/obstacle could be interesting, right now you can cross the lava "by luck" simply by letting you falling and walking, which is normal behaviour. People also learn by repetition Tongue
Have you tried falling to the lava? Tongue

May be a good idea, it would also cover more things which are missing, such as platforms in void areas.

There are of course many points which could make an introduction or tutorial map for OA (should we teach weapon use, console use, commands, gametypes, strafejumping ...) etc.
Leave strafe/bunny/...-jumping for an advanced map. This one should be a basic one.
About the console... leave that for a manual. Tongue
And weapon use... I'd like to cover the basic use for this map, and the advanced for an advanced tutorial.
And as for gametypes, well, other than videos, I don't know how to make these. :/ So, for the moment, my only answer is "leave that for the manual".

Tremulous has an additionnal hud (a "tutorial cvar") which is displayed and which tells about which keys are used to change weapons or such. I thought the idea was interesting but could be pushed further.
Talk with Sago about that.
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« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2010, 05:49:55 PM »

Tried beta2. Good  Smiley, but....

- Some messages in the hud are too long (they exceed the screen, at least at 4:3).
- When you talk about the amor, what's that "cap at 150?" The maximum armor is 200...
- Placing the signs at a lower height would make them easier to read...
- Why did you remove the rocket jump? To avoid pepole suicide?
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« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2010, 06:45:59 PM »

- I only half understand the point with ammo but that's not important.
- About picmip, I'm unsure if bigger (like: almost covering the whole wall) signs might help. r_picmip can destroy any texture so I suppose this isn't a good workaround.
- Progressively as, you first learn about a few items, and you are not told about the others. You have to master these few items. Then in the next lesson a few others are presented to you, and some others are still not mentionned, etc etc. This may not be so important for a game which way of working is quite straightforward, but I'm rather convinced a new player would quickly forget a large proportion of weapons/items/powerups which are available in a map where every items are available.
Rather than a museum, for instance, it could be better to teach the concept of powerup rather than showing every powerup. You could put "haste" on your map, and imagine some use of it. The player could then realize what effect this particular item has, could see it has a countdown, and see its effect starts as soon as you get it. Then let him/her go for a run, jumps, etc.
Same for holdables which are another concept, imagine a pit which causes much damage, some medikit could then be used afterwards with the "use" key.
And you wouldn't need to show much more.
So that's why I would have thought about limiting drastically the number of weapons and items available in the map, they could bring more confusion than help. The arena would be emptied of unknown items too, and could have the interest to contain one powerful weapon (bfg ? lightning gun ?...) which wasn't presented before.

The idea of containing every items could be useful, but maybe not in a tutorial. Like q3min had, this could also be useful for testing purposes (testing sounds, icons, etc).

PS: powerups are in crates, is this normal ? I only played beta2, I didn't get the first version. I confirm the bot doesn't appear with me, maybe I have a setting or a pk3 which prevents it.
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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2010, 05:26:07 PM »

i saw you used some of evil lairs textures from texturepack alien which arent in OA 0.85 nor the SVN. Same case for am_lavactf2, which has a lot of e8's textures. Are those legit to use ? I know Lair licenced just a few of his textures under GPL, but you cannot find any information about it on his homepage. Is there any complete list of all his GPLed textures ?
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