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Author Topic: [WIP] CTF Map "Pretzel"  (Read 38509 times)
VortexHU
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« on: December 06, 2010, 03:01:15 am »

Simple, medium-sized ctf map. Draft, but pk3 attached (includes bot play, watch it if u want!). drop in baseoa dir, use \devmap ctf004_013 in console to run it. Comments?

Note: the later versions are in later posts.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 08:42:37 am by VortexHU » Logged

VortexHU
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2010, 10:04:46 am »

Simple Wink
But could be nice and fast!

Comments?
Well saying compliments won't help you for builg this map so i go directly with notice ^^

- Some area look maybe too much dark (near to 2nd screenshot for example).
Also the change from light to dark is strange (i mean not really fade u see lot the change) but maybe its my config Tongue

- Mmm when i put all in max quality i have a little "tak tak tak" in sound, it's the only map where i get this!

But nice! Smiley Good luck ending that.
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2010, 11:33:46 am »

Its a nice little map, and here are some ideas:

- spotlights without lamps are always some kind of odd, try to build / model some lamps for it

- the map is flat, only one little ramp is giving a small variation in height. Try to build more different floors, try to avoid ramps (small ramps with low increase angle are okay, but big long ramps with ~ 45 angle looks awful), use insteat of this stairs. Though try to avoid 45 degree stairs as well.  Jumppads are fine as well, but dont use too many.

- The ceiling height is nearly perfect, though the ceiling looks very boring. Build here as well ceilings with different heights, perhabs somewhere a opened ceiling area or a window.

Edit: there are plenty of weapons on this small map, you find like every few meters a new one. I personally would at least remove the railgun, since you wont need it on such a small map Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2010, 01:11:59 pm »

Simple Wink
But could be nice and fast!

Comments?
Well saying compliments won't help you for builg this map so i go directly with notice ^^

i can't change anything without criticism (even "more of this good thing" is still suggesting an inadequacy). thx Cheesy

- Some area look maybe too much dark (near to 2nd screenshot for example).
Also the change from light to dark is strange (i mean not really fade u see lot the change) but maybe its my config Tongue

yep i was saving lighting and geometry complications for when the layout was done (i assumed large changes would be suggested). had a sky shader a few minutes b4 those lights. Smiley gotta study other maps to figure out the aesthetics and function of map lighting.

- Mmm when i put all in max quality i have a little "tak tak tak" in sound, it's the only map where i get this!

when i turn the sound up and get near the weapons, i hear it too. didnt notice before, and i have absolutely no idea how that happened. i placed one weapon (shotgun i think) first, then its ammo, then copied those around with repositioning and class changes, thought that was normal. maybe we're hearing the bot attraction field (j/k but i noticed a bot w/the flag will go for items b4 it caps)... seriously no idea...
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2010, 01:23:36 pm »

Its a nice little map, and here are some ideas:

- spotlights without lamps are always some kind of odd, try to build / model some lamps for it

right will do. iirc sago was slowed down by high-poly lamp models. what would be appropriate? maybe something that looks like track lighting.

- the map is flat, only one little ramp is giving a small variation in height. Try to build more different floors, try to avoid ramps (small ramps with low increase angle are okay, but big long ramps with ~ 45 angle looks awful), use insteat of this stairs. Though try to avoid 45 degree stairs as well.  Jumppads are fine as well, but dont use too many.

so same floor w/height changes or actual stories where players walk above and below each other at same xy positions? r my ramps too big or too angled? i need to check if gtkradiant has stair generator...

- The ceiling height is nearly perfect, though the ceiling looks very boring. Build here as well ceilings with different heights, perhabs somewhere a opened ceiling area or a window.

maybe i could bring back the sky and make the wall tops more interesting, or include large ribs or struts w/the lamps in them.

Edit: there are plenty of weapons on this small map, you find like every few meters a new one. I personally would at least remove the railgun, since you wont need it on such a small map Smiley

not even for the long halls or the little "kill the flag carrier at the last second *holy crap sound*" alcoves? Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2010, 01:59:14 pm »

well, I think that all has been said about lights and that map should look better so I will speak about some stupid problems...

so: in first, when I started the map I was looking to the wall, after some long researches about why I was looking to this wall I devlopped a theory about a respawn inclination problem and another one about my own psychologic health.
to check my theory, I gace a look to the .map and... respawns are looking to the wall (picture 1, blues look in the wrong way too).

then, its hard to strafe in the right and the left corridors (think about all these players like me who have a serious problem with their strafe Cry ), I dont really know how you d do to solve this if you do but I guess it would be better with a path(piture 2). I thought about stairs or 4 or 5 steps or some jumpads downer of 3 or 4 metters.

the last pic is about thes stranges blocks which stop me when I want to go the flag ! it makes me sick !! punched (picture 3)
in my opinion, it would be better to get a litlle ramp to stop the players, and then to do some stranges vertical bars smaller to get a great place for camping like in carnival's shoot stand (ones where you have to shoot ducks :p )

to finish, Im crazy about the layout and I already imagine a next version a litlle like blitzkrieg3, with many pipes on the ceil,
a central way really higher and a kind of cell where are the "blocky bars" where we'd be able to shot to the ennemy's base !
and maybe some piece of water (or slime.. at least.. punched) in the lateral ways !


author=St0n3*r link=topic=4009.msg36687#msg36687 date=1291651486]- Mmm when i put all in max quality i have a little "tak tak tak" in sound, it's the only map where i get this!

when i turn the sound up and get near the weapons, i hear it too. didnt notice before, and i have absolutely no idea how that happened. i placed one weapon (shotgun i think) first, then its ammo, then copied those around with repositioning and class changes, thought that was normal. maybe we're hearing the bot attraction field (j/k but i noticed a bot w/the flag will go for items b4 it caps)... seriously no idea...

Ghosts? oO
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VortexHU
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2010, 02:32:27 pm »

so: in first, when I started the map I was looking to the wall, after some long researches about why I was looking to this wall I devlopped a theory about a respawn inclination problem and another one about my own psychologic health.
to check my theory, I gace a look to the .map and... respawns are looking to the wall (picture 1, blues look in the wrong way too).

yep that's an oversight thx

then, its hard to strafe in the right and the left corridors (think about all these players like me who have a serious problem with their strafe Cry ), I dont really know how you d do to solve this if you do but I guess it would be better with a path(piture 2). I thought about stairs or 4 or 5 steps or some jumpads downer of 3 or 4 metters.

i was hoping to make capping difficult, but also i dont know what u'r saying: should i prevent strafing or make it easier like w/those curved walls? i could use a portal to a hallway above and below the map (easier to strafe, easier to rail) instead of the current halls. could u pls explain the stairs/jumppads idea?

the last pic is about thes stranges blocks which stop me when I want to go the flag ! it makes me sick !! punched (picture 3)
in my opinion, it would be better to get a litlle ramp to stop the players, and then to do some stranges vertical bars smaller to get a great place for camping like in carnival's shoot stand (ones where you have to shoot ducks :p )

Grin so the bars should be thinner and should go into a small wall on the floor?

to finish, Im crazy about the layout and I already imagine a next version a litlle like blitzkrieg3, with many pipes on the ceil,
a central way really higher and a kind of cell where are the "blocky bars" where we'd be able to shot to the ennemy's base !
and maybe some piece of water (or slime.. at least.. punched) in the lateral ways !

pipes are good, basement-like! shallow water for atmosphere or swim thru the center?

Ghosts? oO
Evil

thx for the feedback guys!
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2010, 03:34:17 pm »

About the the fps issue on oasago2: i'm not sure if its only the fire animation which results in this fps drop. Have a look a thors map, it has nearly the same bad fps and doesnt have this much flares on it. If you start oasago2 in devmap mode and make r_showtris 1 you see, that there arent any hint textures (or just a few) built in this map, a general problem of wide and open maps. Perhabs removing the middle part of oasago2 and merging the map with oasago1 (some castle with closed rooms) would result in better fps as well as in a better gameplay.

About the dimension of stairs, ramps and other stuff: of cause there arent any rules, but i think every mapper has his own rules like a certan hallway width, floor height et cetera. I personally try to avoid hallways with less than 192 width, same for stairs. But finding the right dimenion of a map is the hardest part of all. Therefore many mappers split their work in 2 parts of development:
First find a rough layout using just plain walls, floors, ceilings and tweak this layout until it has a good gameflow. Ask others for their opinion, upload the map on a server and try a ctf game with others. Second: remove those dummy geometrie and increase the level of detail of the map. To give you a few examples, here are some screenshots of my try to retexturize pul1ctf:

http://img707.imageshack.us/i/shot0002gl.jpg/

Just a (too dark) test of re-doing some parts of the map, trying to get a feeling for certain corridors. The lower parts of the flagroom are almost finished, hence i allready begun to find a coherent stil of modeling the details:

http://img15.imageshack.us/i/shot0001id.jpg/

See the wall left from the flag, i added some "depth" to it. And for the floor at the flagspot i used a different texture, just to get rid of a one textured floor.

About stairs:

http://img204.imageshack.us/i/shot0003am.jpg/

I think the dimension of the stairs is 192x8x16, and i am quite satisfied with the stairs. The last screenshots contains a lot of light shaders, perhabs i have to reduce the count to get better fps for this map. But i havent used any hind brushes up to now, so we will see.

About your ramp: the texture looks not good, because it is repeating too often.

I hope this helps a bit about making a map. If you have a plain layout of a map, i'm sure there are some people which will test it online. But there is nothing more disappointing for a mapper than to finish a map and notice afterwards, that the layout doesnt support a good gameplay.





« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 04:19:50 pm by **HD » Logged
VortexHU
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2010, 03:47:49 pm »

[not too open and use hint textures!]

will remember

First find a rough layout using just plain walls, floors, ceilings and tweak this layout as long as it has a good gameflow. Ask others for their opinion, upload the map on a server and try a ctf game with others. Second: remove those dummy geometrie and increase the level of detail of the map.

i'm trying to keep it simple until the layout's done (i.e., gameplay but coarse aesthetics too), then detail work b/c i dont like redoing stuff too many times, so same method.

[details and stairs]
thx

btw the reimagined version of pul1ctf looks awesome. Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2010, 06:38:58 pm »

i raised the middle and added jump pads as in this video, but all i get is a really quiet whoosh sound and no character voice when the jump occurs. any ideas? might be connected with the weird ticking sound around the weapons.

edit: also my map is already rly slow in gtkradiant (takes > 1 s to redraw a view if i have world and entities showing at same time), but blitzkrieg3 has no such issue. something weird going on here...

edit 2: ok i was using trigger_multiple and two targets but now just trigger_push, it makes sounds as expected (learned from oasago2). Smiley
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 08:07:59 pm by VortexHU » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2010, 05:36:48 pm »

ok new draft w/stairs, thinner bars, about 3 floors. sky shader for light for now.
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VortexHU
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« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2010, 08:31:17 pm »

Very good, all improvement are in good way Smiley

2 things i wonder :

1) at the right of the pic below there is a very little bright area in the dark, don't understand really why  Huh
2) was wondering (and that is why i took the screenshot) maybe making the open square in middle a bit highter would rock?
I mean make it highter to allow to took this way with crouch, but not to much to force to crouch Wink
This could be a more tactical way for flag back with speed Cheesy (just an idea)
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2010, 12:53:47 am »

1) at the right of the pic below there is a very little bright area in the dark, don't understand really why  Huh

wasn't intentional, this is probably b/c the brushes making up the wall are zero thickness at that corner, will fix sometime. Smiley

2) was wondering (and that is why i took the screenshot) maybe making the open square in middle a bit highter would rock?
I mean make it highter to allow to took this way with crouch, but not to much to force to crouch Wink
This could be a more tactical way for flag back with speed Cheesy (just an idea)

so ur saying instead of preventing getting through and only letting them shoot the carrier, i should let them crouch through while being vulnerable? i was hoping the three ways back to base would be about the same length. wouldn't this make it so nobody takes the long way around (the big tunnels at the ends of the map w/colored lights)?

Very good, all improvement are in good way Smiley

do u like the sky lighting better than the darker basement-like lighting? i can keep it that way.
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 07:26:18 am »

i like the 3 floor layout in ctf004_018 more than the 004_013 map, though it has some issues. I've added a sketch of your level layout with different colors for the floors and the stairs to explain it:

- there is no interaction between your floors (except the flag camping cave) or in general between your 3 ways. Once you chosen a way, you have no backup plan, what to do if there are enemys on your way. Have a look at oasago2: 3 ways, but they all meet in middle part of the map, where you have some interaction between upper (bridge) and lower part. Same case for pul1ctf: 2 flagrooms and a middle part where all ways meet (on different floors).
Best example for this ctf "bae-middle_part-base" level layout: oa_spirit3 ( i actually love oa_spirit3, though the hidden flag makes it kind of unplayable).

- there is no need to take the outer (longer!) ways of your map: near the big stairs is the lightning gun and the railgun, which are the most used weapon in ctf (by far). You are an easy target on those right and left way, since there is nothing to hide, just some long corridors. Why should i take the longer risky way, if there is a shorter safer way ? Make the longer way more interesting with stronger weapon or with yellow / red armor.

- Until now you place your weapons like : ammo - weapon - ammo.  I wouldnt place the ammo near the weapon. Your map is small with many weapons, so you are probably never running out of ammo. however, if one weapon is empty, make the player go around, collecting the ammo. Every fragged player will drop a weapon too, keep this mind.

- i liked the closed ceiling much more (just my personal opinion). If you combine a closed ceiling with some open areas / windows / different ceiling heights, it will looks much more varied than just a simple open sky box.  
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 07:55:00 am by **HD » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2010, 07:23:31 pm »

[reasons to take different routes; interaction b/t levels]

I've added a tunnel from the camp caves to the outer ways. is that sorta what u'r talking about? also there's armor and better health in outer ways.

[too much ammo]

chg of weaps and ammo included.

- i liked the closed ceiling much more (just my personal opinion). If you combine a closed ceiling with some open areas / windows / different ceiling heights, it will looks much more varied than just a simple open sky box.  

well i want to get the layout done first b/c o/w i'm just making extra work decorating the ceiling. same w/lights, hence sky shader. once walls and floors stop moving i'll design and light better (hopefully Smiley ).

btw the attached version has a slight aesthetic change at the tops of stairs, tell me whether it's good.
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2010, 08:04:35 pm »

I walk slowly till dark area to see if the 'strange' little light area was fixed Wink and woauuw there is another way now Tongue
Nice idea, that give more speed and tactic there!

My idea about crouch stuff was bad yess i agree ^^
Mmm anyways i have still little matter there, found that a bit strange..
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2010, 08:18:48 pm »

ok so the tunnel works. Smiley

My idea about crouch stuff was bad yess i agree ^^

no not bad, it would be another tactic (too small to rox jump thru, so nobody could take the shortcut both ways). the bots r trying to crouch thru, Cheesy i need to make it either smaller or larger i guess.

Mmm anyways i have still little matter there, found that a bit strange..

u mean the tunnel or the bars?
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2010, 08:27:19 pm »

no no tunnel is nice Wink
I speak about bars, i understand the aim is to get a tactical way to aim (and that it will give some nice 'oooh crap' xP).
But dunno smth is strange with, it say a bit 'come here, and sit with railgun plz'
And hell yeah bots seem to like it atm ^^

Smaller, larger, or smth else dunno but i hope someone else will have THE idea Tongue
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2010, 11:46:36 pm »

no no tunnel is nice Wink
I speak about bars, i understand the aim is to get a tactical way to aim (and that it will give some nice 'oooh crap' xP).
But dunno smth is strange with, it say a bit 'come here, and sit with railgun plz'

the grenade launcher is right beside it and can sneak up on campers from two directions... Smiley but if it becomes a problem i can remove and replace w/window or smth else (nice abbr btw).

And hell yeah bots seem to like it atm ^^

turns out all i needed to do to prevent that was cover it w/a clip-textured brush. if i use that for floor too i can reduce the poly count/#bars, but also i want a rocket to accidentally hit a bar and self dmg sometimes.

Smaller, larger, or smth else dunno but i hope someone else will have THE idea Tongue

i hope so too!
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2010, 06:50:49 am »

I think the nailgun is better against those campers Wink (Quake 3 bots were amazing to test that, sometimes 2 out of 4 bots were sit at the blue's place, while there were red).

Another point for OA bots, I didn't see an OA bot camping there.

Maybe the main radius is a bit wide, and I liked that it wasn't that open from above.
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2010, 01:07:12 pm »

The middle route at the moment is both the shortest and the most advantageous. Therefore I'd propose to also make it the most dangerous. This might be a bit too much of a change, but consider this: Invert the height differences, as in, the middle is the lowest point in the map, and the balconies help attacking/blocking the middle route, as they are now pointing downwards towards them, and not to the flags. The outer, longer routes can now have stairs leading up from the 'flag rooms'. That means you now have the height advantage and are rewarded for taking the longer route.

As for the tunnel, it's fine as it is, it might work both overhead and below the middle path.

Additional ideas:

- quad (or other PU) in the middle
- perhaps vary the width of the outer corridors, to break them up a bit and provide some interesting geometry to battle (perhaps arches/doorways/pillars)
- teleporter from the very end of the outer loop might be an option, but might also be confusing (some testing in order?)
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2010, 03:54:18 pm »

I think the nailgun is better against those campers Wink (Quake 3 bots were amazing to test that, sometimes 2 out of 4 bots were sit at the blue's place, while there were red).

Another point for OA bots, I didn't see an OA bot camping there.

Given the crouching, I think they're trying to get through. Again, a clip brush seems to solve the problem, but then even with info_camp with weight 150 they don't camp there like you said. Maybe if I just used clip brushes and transparent textures instead of the bars it would work with bot camping, will have to try.

Maybe the main radius is a bit wide, and I liked that it wasn't that open from above.

The radius of the camp box? I guess if it were smaller it might be easier to kill a camper (rox e.g.).
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2010, 04:05:34 pm »

[Middle route lower rather than higher]

i might try this. Smiley

- perhaps vary the width of the outer corridors, to break them up a bit and provide some interesting geometry to battle (perhaps arches/doorways/pillars)

So actual constrictions and variations, not just decorations that get smoothed out with clip brushes? Should they encourage rocket jumps, e.g.?

- teleporter from the very end of the outer loop might be an option, but might also be confusing (some testing in order?)

I had considered teleporters to replace the outer ways in order to make strafing and railing more feasible (according to the suggestion of Moixie above). Now that I might end up replacing the bars with something more sci-fi-ish, teleporters would no longer mess up the physical basement feel I was half going for. Smiley I might do this too.
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2010, 10:23:29 am »

So actual constrictions and variations, not just decorations that get smoothed out with clip brushes? Should they encourage rocket jumps, e.g.?
Pretty much, yes. It gives you the following options:
- creating a choke point, as a kind of hotspot where most fights occur, rather than having them equally distributed along the path
- putting the highly rewarding armour in a dangerous position where players can fight over it and possibly get caught off guard when trying to pick it up
- enable ambushes (might be as simple as a pillar to break things up)

It might even reduce the need to do extra fancy things to the walls, because the geometry makes the path more unique and recognisable.
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2010, 01:39:52 pm »

Maybe the main radius is a bit wide, and I liked that it wasn't that open from above.

The radius of the camp box? I guess if it were smaller it might be easier to kill a camper (rox e.g.).

I know that my English is far from perfect... I meant the outer circle routes of the map. Also, I meant I liked it better with ceiling.
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