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Author Topic: 0.8.1 & 0.8.5 Demo Playback issues  (Read 22902 times)
swaggerall
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« on: January 30, 2012, 08:42:34 am »

not sure if this is the right location but anyway

has anyone ever noticed how you cannot playback

0.8.1 or any other kind of demos [0.7.1 ,0.7.6 , etc]  on a 0.8.5 openarena?


will this be fixed in 0.8.8

and will folders be added



example: say if the demos are in a folder they are not seen in the demos section.


EDIT: it is seen only under Q3 with folders
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sago007
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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 11:18:43 am »

It has been noticed. The demo files does not contain information about what files are needed to play them, so it justs attempts to play them anyway. To fix this will likely require a change in the demo format and that would only fix the problem going forward. This is not part of 0.8.8
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grey matter
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 01:29:04 pm »

Did you really change anything of the net protocol? Otherwise you should be able to play Quake 3 1.32c .dm_68 files by just renaming them (or ignoring their file extension code-wise). Just bumping the protocol number does not make demos incompatible.

Searching folders recusively for demo files might not be a good idea. You should still be able to run "/demo some/folder/with/demos" from the ingame console.
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GrosBedo
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 03:17:53 pm »

I just tested playing demos, recorded with v0.8.1 and others with with v0.8.5.

There's some kind of compatibility, so that demos recorded with v0.8.1 are also playable with v0.8.5, but you get some icons bugs, that probably has its root to the same problem as the "CG_REGISTERITEMVISUALS: ITEMNUM XX OUT OF RANGE [0-60]" bug pointed in this thread:

http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=3717.0

On the other side, demos recorded with v0.8.5 are fully playable with v0.8.1 (unless there are special weapons such as chaingun or mines or "shardgun" - can't remember the real name).

So, normally, demos recorded with lower versions than v0.8.1 should be playable with v0.8.5. Anyway, if you encounter a problem, you can simply rename temporary the 085 pk3 file, because there's no change in the binaries (I tried, binaries are clean, the only thing that changes the recording is the 085 pk3).
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2012, 04:12:10 pm »

This problem might also be related with the maps. Between versions, maps get changed.

Though IANAC, so I might be wrong.
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swaggerall
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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2012, 02:51:44 pm »

so can it be added?


or fixed?


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GrosBedo
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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2012, 04:13:17 pm »

so can it be added?

or fixed?

Just rename the 085 pk3 to another extension when trying to open an old demo, and see if that works.
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swaggerall
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« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2012, 09:35:26 pm »

Why not juust ask the devs to fix it?

Renaming it is honestly a hassle
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GrosBedo
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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2012, 04:55:48 am »

Why not juust ask the devs to fix it?

Renaming it is honestly a hassle

Because there's no real problem, this is not due to some weird new ultra complicated functionnality but due to adding the team arena weapons and items in OpenArena standard. So the simple fix would be to remove completely these things, and I don't think that's a good idea, or to find a way to make the code retrocompatible, but that is way more complicated.

But if you are up to the challenge, you are free to take a look at the sourcecode.

Or just rename your OA 085 pk3.
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Gig
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2012, 05:28:05 am »

It's not simply to remove Team Arena weapons. Maps change with each release, for example (you may see the player passing through a wall because in the recorded version there was a passage there).
I suppose the only solution would be to store somewhere the list of the pk3s that were "in use" at the moment of recording.

Of course, that would allow to play 0.8.1 demos on 0.8.5, but not 0.8.5 demos on 0.8.1.
Indeed... what in case some of pk3s in use at the moment of recording are not available when playing the demo (e.g. demo copied from an user to another)? Unlike when connected to a server, the client will not have any chance to autodownload them.
It would be something like the "pure server" checks (you must have the same versions of all the pk3s the server is effectively using at that moment -you can notice maps pk3s are usually downloaded one-by-one, when needed-), but without the ability to autodownload extra files.

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GrosBedo
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2012, 08:10:54 am »

@Gig: indeed Sago's idea to save all files that were used along with their checksum (or better, the MD5 hash) would be the best, but anyway having different files is a minor bug since players can easily change their files to replay correctly the demo. As long as the demo plays. And that's the problem here, that this is a so big gamecode change that it breaks compatibility not only with demos but also with mods.

But I don't think these additions should be removed. But if they could be fixed to be retrocompatible, this would be perfect.

/EDIT: As pointed out by NeonKnight, these additions were also included in OA 081, so this is not the root of the incompatibility. But something changed in the weapons and items management and that is the root, but I don't know exactly where and why.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 09:18:41 am by GrosBedo » Logged
Gig
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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2012, 04:28:29 pm »

Well, if engine changes would not be enough to implement the feature, I suppose this could simply be applied to new gamecode like many other additions. I mean that new feature would work with OA 0.9.0/OA3 and later (example), while demos up to 0.8.8 would continue to work in the classic way. Also all mods based upon previous game logic (all q3 mods, plus mods based upon 0.8.x gamecode) would continue to work as they ever did (not storing/requiring hashes).

AFAIK all changes regarding game logic (gamecode) -unlike engine changes- do NOT affect old mods. All new game logic features/fixes introduced with an OpenArena version do not work in a mod which is based upon a previous version (the gamecode in use completely overrides other gamecodes, they do not get mixed. I don't know if there are some cases -e.g very small modifications?- where this may happen.). E.g. all quake 3 mods will continue forever to immediately end matches with timelimit set to -1, while 088 baseoa does not anymore; aftershock, e+ etc. will continue to have the problem until their developers will integrate 088 changes into them (or maybe they may have already fixed that problem by their own, I don't know!).  
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 05:06:17 pm by Gig » Logged

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swaggerall
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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2012, 03:34:56 pm »

all im saying is we all want this fixed


dont say its not broken

cause it obviously doesnt work..
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Peter Silie
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« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2012, 04:36:38 pm »

Sometimes you should cut ropes and forget about old things.
There are many pitfalls regarding a fix: maps changed (remember the "weapons fire through the platform in ctf4ish).
If you still like to see old demos for old maps, just use old versions Wink
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swaggerall
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« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2012, 12:24:21 am »

i dont see why no one would not fix this..


i doesnt make any sense to use a older version because older versions will not be avalible to new comers


im doing this for the new people to oa

they will not know why demos dont play
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Graion Dilach
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« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2012, 04:03:58 am »

Can't you understand? The demos got broken due to having the TA stuff added into main OA.

Fixing your demos = restoring them to missionpack-only. Personally, that's the bad idea.

I'm here for a while now... and I never wanted to play a demo in OA. If the demo was created by an older version, it's enought to have it uploaded to YouTube, IMO.
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Gig
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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2012, 04:41:15 am »

Of course, if a such improvement would not be excessively hard, it would be very good. But I don't know how hard it would be (maybe parts of the "pure server" checks source code may be reused for that).

Anyway, that would work only with patches, not with major versions that "reboot" all pk3s. OA0.9.0/OA3 will not be able to play 0.8.x demos, because their pk3s will be totally different. If the feature will be implemented, OA 0.9.4 may be able to play 0.9.0 demos.

A question: what do you say guys, is this a thing that may be proposed to ioquake3 guys or not? I fear this would require game logic changes (that they probably don't do at all) or to make the engine look into data files (that probably is not good, generally speking)... and anyway I suppose this problem affects ioquake3 much less than OpenArena, beause they are not used to change game stuff (but mods may be positively affected by an engine upgrade with this feature, if technically possible -again, I fear it's difficult to do everything engine side, but IDK-) .

Ps: Graion, I think that storing the list of used pk3 files (not simply those installed!) while recording, and then loading only the same pk3s while playing the demo -like when connecting to an old-version pure server- may do the magic (game logic would revert to old one! And old maps versions would be loaded). But I don't know if that would hard or easy to implement. And unofficial pk3s in use when recording may prevent the demo from running on another machine anyway.
But, unless this may be done fully engine-side (that I fear unlikely, but I don't know), this may affect only future versions of OA. OA 0.8.x would always continue to work with classic demos.

PPS: By the way, me too very rarely play demos. But I'm not an hardcore gamer, I'm not in a game clan since many years (I was in TEQ q3 clan... many years ago!)... maybe someone may use demos much more than what I do (this change would not be very useful for me, but maybe for someone else).
Anyway, the ability to export to avi files already allows to have "long lasting copies" of your favorite demos... so probably this compatibility enhancement would get very low priority is Sago/Fromhell's plans.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 05:00:08 am by Gig » Logged

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GrosBedo
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« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2012, 07:03:06 am »

Can't you understand? The demos got broken due to having the TA stuff added into main OA.

This is false, that's what I also believed, but as pointed by NeonKnight (and which I tested myself), OA 081 already includes TA gametypes and weapons, but doesn't break compatibility, only OA 085 breaks compatibility, and I don't know why.

Also, the compatibility break also affects server-side mods, which are no longer compatible with OA 085 (all mods are still compatible when used client-side - ie: with autodownload - but no server-side).

Now that I'm getting more used to the game code, I may take a look at this issue. I'm pretty sure this is a small change that breaks the compatibility.

@Gig: the ioquake3 project is pretty dead, and anyway the guys are really reluctant to add new functionnalities, so I think we are on our own if we want to enhance the game code.
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Gig
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2012, 08:58:34 am »

I don't know enough about server-side mods, so I can't help you about them. I don't know how they can use different pk3s without requiring the client to download them. I don't know how can they change game aspects without loading a different QVM in the clients.

But I want to tell you that working around specific game logic incompatibilities between 081 and 085 probably will not be enough: different map versions are also a major problem... I feel loading and unloading patch pk3s to fit those used when recording the demo would be the only possible solution (and that would not need further tweaking at every new release). But again, I have no idea about serverside mods... maybe they should be left out from the new demo system -using standard demos instead-, like all old standard mods that will keep their own gamecode?
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GrosBedo
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2012, 09:05:05 am »

@Gig: Loading a map is not a great matter, because players can always find a way to fetch the required map over the net. But if the gamecode is incompatible, they have absolutely no easy way to fix that.

About server-side mods, they simply can't modify client-side aspects, they can just add server-side functionnalities, but that's enough to add a lot of features (eg: with E+, you can have full delag for all weapons + anti-cheat + anti-camp + advanced config scripting + locking and managing teams in matchs + referees system + etc...).
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WingedPanther
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2012, 09:14:08 am »

Swaggerall, speaking as a programmer, we all have limited time.

Fixing the demos would be nice, but there are a LOT of issues involved in making it work.  So, the developers have a choice to make, they can spend precious time and energy on attempting to fix the demos, which is somewhere between very very hard and impossible, or they can spend that same precious time attempting to fix bugs and add features that are much easier to implement, and probably more important.

You mention everyone wanting the demos fixed, but the reality is I never use the demos.  For me, it would be a huge investment of time to fix something of little to no personal value.  By contrast, fixing bugs and balance issues in maps, adding new characters, and improving performance are all issues that DO affect everyone, quite literally.

In the end, it's about setting priorities.  Working on something that has a known work-around, does not benefit everyone, and may be a waste of time is probably going to get a much lower priority than the dozens of other issues that are on the table.  I don't contribute to this project right now, and I freely admit that.  But if I REALLY wanted a feature added, I would take a few polite "no"s as my incentive to do it myself, or accept that my priorities are not their priorities.
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GrosBedo
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2012, 10:52:22 am »

Sago, if you read this thread, could you please point me to the exact version of the gamecode used for OA 0.8.1 please? For OA 0.8.5, I guess the version on the SVN branch for 085 is the right one, isn't it?
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2012, 10:58:57 am »

Isn't the 0.8.1 gamecode in the OA SVN under the source/081 folder?
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GrosBedo
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2012, 12:32:49 pm »

Isn't the 0.8.1 gamecode in the OA SVN under the source/081 folder?

I'm not sure about it, versions can differ a lot and it's very important that I have the exact versions of OA 081 and 085 gamecodes if I want to try to fix this compatibility break, so I would like Sago's confirmation about it.
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sago007
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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2012, 12:41:08 pm »

Sago, if you read this thread, could you please point me to the exact version of the gamecode used for OA 0.8.1 please? For OA 0.8.5, I guess the version on the SVN branch for 085 is the right one, isn't it?
I believe the version in SVN is the correct one. But I originally uploaded it here: http://files.poulsander.com/~poul19/public_files/oa/dev081/openarena-modSDK-0.8.1.tar.bz2

I should notice that smcv already pointed the change out in another thread. It was a piece of out-commented code in 0.8.1 that was in-commented in 0.8.5. This changed an enumerator. Normally new items are added to the end of an enumerator but because the code was commented in it was already in the wrong place. The code was supposed to have been activated in 0.8.1.

There are other changes that sometimes causes "Invalid command" to be displayed while playing a demo.

@Gig: the ioquake3 project is pretty dead, and anyway the guys are really reluctant to add new functionnalities, so I think we are on our own if we want to enhance the game code.
There is actually quite a few commits to ioquake3 but not anything that would draw a headline. My favourite enhancement have been the qvm based serverside mod on pure server thing.
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