Poll
Question: Common map naming for OACMP (map dm1/ctf1 as example) [ends 20/12]
oacmpdm01/oacmpctf01 - 2 (28.6%)
oacmpdm001/oacmpctf001 - 0 (0%)
oacmpdm1/oacmpctf1 - 4 (57.1%)
oacmp1dm01/oacmp1ctf01 - 0 (0%)
oacmp01dm01/oacmp01ctf01 - 0 (0%)
Other option (elaborate or your vote won't count) - 1 (14.3%)
Total Voters: 7

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Author Topic: [REL] OpenArena Community Mappack - Volume 1 - FINAL  (Read 499642 times)
jangroothuijse
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« Reply #800 on: June 29, 2013, 11:54:36 am »

- Any news from Moixie? I can rember that his DM map had a problem with the timing of the central jump-pad+its horizontal "door" (when playing on-line, the thing often did not work as expected, with very bad effects). I don't remember if he already released a fixed version of it or not. Maybe he also had to do some tests with placing some item_botroam to make the bots use the jump-pads and the upper floor some more.
I was constantly falling to the void in mx1dm5 even in local games, this jumppads combo constantly fails. I would rather remove it altogether, or have an oldskool teleporter.

- Jan said he will be able to work on his maps only after July 5th. It seems to me to remember that his oajgdm3alpha5 had some glitch (see linked post), and that there is that other DM map (oajgdm2 maybe?) that still has some teleporters that look like plain walls. I don't remember exactly, but maybe also a couple of teleporters in oajgdm1 had the same problem (next to the "teleporter corridors", there are other teleporters, almost unnoticeable, IIRC).
The problems are in oajgdm2:
If thats the main problem then your in luck, though they look like your normal wall; they are actually made up out of telemarble, a shader used only for the teleporters; so you could just edit the shader files.

Something else, how do you guys get such low reachability-area's? (which is a good thing for performance) what switches do you use one BSPC?
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Gig
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« Reply #801 on: July 01, 2013, 02:15:57 am »

Something else, how do you guys get such low reachability-area's? (which is a good thing for performance) what switches do you use one BSPC?

Uh? Are you referring to this?
I simply used bspc -bsp2ass mapname.bsp (I optimize file size in a later passage with bspc -aasopt mapname.aas, although maybe this may be done in a single process). I don't know the switches used by Pelya.


I quickly tested Pelya's new version of the map. Okay, now the bots are able to do that jump. Good job, Pelya!  Wink How did you fix that, then?
For the rest:
- unfortunately I can still see the small glitch where two bevels touch there (see screenshot). However it's not so important.
- in that blue wall (see screenshot) there is a part of the decorative azure line that uses a different tone on blue. This one should be fixed.
- The "gametype" key for the megahealth only has got these values: "ctf, ctfelimination, dd". Is that intentional that it does not apply to modes such as FFA, TDM, Obelisk?
-- By the way, I can guess there is no reason to specify "ctfelimination" value for an health bonus, considering that in ctfelimination mode, all health bonuses are automatically removed from the game (just like elimination and lms modes).

Note: in the PC I'm writing from, I have a problem with the sky of this map... however on another machine it works correctly, so I can guess I have some PK3 that interferes (maybe an old version of some other jan's map).
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #802 on: July 01, 2013, 05:48:13 am »

That's why I insist with trying the maps on a clean installation of OA. If there's another non-official PK3 interfering then it causes us unnecessary headaches.
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Gig
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« Reply #803 on: July 01, 2013, 07:03:24 am »

Don't worry... I tried the map also on the other machine, with a cleaner OA. The sky works correctly there.
Simply, I was working on this one when I took the screenshot, so I mentioned you the sky thing.

Other notices are valid also on that other machine (well, the flickering bevels effect seems to be less visible on the Radeon HD than on the integrated intel graphics... by the way, maybe that's just a small id tech3 bug that we cannot do anything against).

More on analyzing that package:

"Oajgctf1.arena" file has got this "type" key.
Quote
"ctf oneflag harvester overload elimination ctfelimination dom dd harvester"
I can see that "harvester" is repeated two times, and "obelisk" is missing.

And I noticed that there is written "ctfelimination", while the table here mentioned "ctfelim" instead for the .arena file. Considering that oajgctf1 is shown in the GUI when in the list of CTF Elimination, I can guess that "ctfelimination" is the correct value and that "ctfelim" on the wiki is an error... however, I'd prefer if someone may confirm.

I must go now and I will not be able look deeper into this before tomorrow... if you could, that would be nice.
I suppose the .arena files of all oacmp maps should be checked.

My Udestruction.arena, up to beta V8, lacks "obelisk" and "harverster" values... That will be fixed in version 9... but now I have to undestrand if I have to specify "ctfelim" or "ctfelimination".

IDEA:
A nice thing someone may do, if he has got some time, could be to provide a set of pre-configured configuration files, with pre-configured map rotation scripts (e.g. oacmp01-ffa.cfg, oacmp01-tdm.cfg, oacmp01-ctf.cfg... oacmp01-mix.cfg), that people may use just using "exec" command. Each one of those scripts would rotate all OACMP01 maps that support a certain gametype, adapting capturelimit according to map size and gametype (most notably, Domination mode requires much higher capturelimits than any other mode).
What do you think about that? Volunteers?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 11:17:38 am by Gig » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #804 on: July 01, 2013, 07:11:00 am »

That's easy. I'll do it, once the pack is finished. And because I haven't contributed anything in the end.
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pelya
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« Reply #805 on: July 01, 2013, 01:06:27 pm »

I quickly tested Pelya's new version of the map. Okay, now the bots are able to do that jump. Good job, Pelya!  Wink How did you fix that, then?
Just open the .map file - there are ugly disgusting botclip boxes everywhere Sad so my theory was correct - BSPC DOES NOT consider curved surfaces a solid area, and does not mark them as reachable to bots.
I'll try to fix other issues this weekend, if I'll have free time.
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Gig
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« Reply #806 on: July 02, 2013, 03:15:28 am »

Neon_Knight, could you please tell me about that .arena value for "ctf elimination" mode? Thank you!
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #807 on: July 02, 2013, 06:05:03 am »

Checked in arenas.txt, it's ctfelimination.
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« Reply #808 on: July 02, 2013, 09:14:29 am »

Interesting news, I found out that there is a way to have bots actually use grappling hook.
Two things are required:
1) That the BSPC command (AAS creation) is run with the "-grapplereach" option (reachability calculation takes a bit longer time)
(example for my map: bspc -grapplereach -optimize -bsp2aas udestruction.bsp)
2) That the server has got "bot_grapple" variable set to 1. Unfortunately, that is set to 0 by default and returns to 0 each time you close the game and start it again (works this way since Q3A). However, one may include "set bot_grapple 1" in his autoexec.cfg file, or include that command in a map rotation script.

However, it works! Well, they will not use it to get attached to high walls/ceiling like humans would do, but they may use it as shortcut to reach some higher floors.

Akom, do you want to recompile oa_akomctf1 AAS file with that option active, and take a look to the results?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 06:41:36 am by Gig » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #809 on: July 02, 2013, 09:54:24 am »

There's no need to recompile the map in it's entirety, just run BSPC adding the -grapplereach option to the command line.
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sago007
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« Reply #810 on: July 02, 2013, 10:01:15 am »

And I noticed that there is written "ctfelimination", while the table here mentioned "ctfelim" instead for the .arena file.
"ctfelim" is correct but ctfelimination works too because ctfelim is a substring in it. In the beginning I did not realize that the game simply looked for a substring not a whole token. If a map has only ctfelimination it will appear in both ctf, elimination and ctfelimination, because they are all substrings. The ctfelimination implied ctf I could just accept but I shortened it, so that you did not need to enable elimination to have it appear in ctf elimination.

Earlier versions required "ctfelimination".
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Gig
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« Reply #811 on: July 02, 2013, 10:43:25 am »

Are you sure? Up to beta version 8, my map has got this "type" key in the .arena file.
Quote
"ffa team elimination lms dd dom oneflag ctf ctfelim"
But it does NOT show up in my list of maps available for CTF Elimination mode... I checked with 0.8.5 and 0.8.8. Does it work for you?  Undecided
Are you sure this "substring" thing you are saying refers to .arena files and not to entities' gametype key, right?

Sago, another thing I really wanted to ask you: in my .arena file I used the "bots" key to specify some bots to be proposed in the GUI for Skirmish/Multiplayer. In some modes (such as FFA and LMS), they are exacly those I specified in the .arena file, but in other modes (e.g. Elimination, Capture the flag) they are different. Is there a different key to be used for other modes (e.g. there is a specific key for team-based modes)? Is there some bug in gamecode? Is this intentional?
Is there an arenas.txt/.arena guide somewhere?

There's no need to recompile the map in it's entirety, just run BSPC adding the -grapplereach option to the command line.
Ehm... which part of "recompile oa_akomctf1 AAS file" was not clear?  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 10:47:33 am by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #812 on: July 05, 2013, 01:00:47 am »

Bad news about the offhand grapple. Being a "cut off" q3 feature, it seems that id software left in some bugs in bots a.i. (this explains why bot_grapple variable is disabled by default).
Making some tests, I noticed that if the bot has not collected the grapple yet, but it needs to go to a place that it would reach with the grapple if it had one... it starts pointlessly firing with normal weapons (standing still) aiming to the wall where it would have fired the grapple if it had it. This means that currently, it is not advisable to enable bot_grapple variable, except for tests (e.g. one might use it with elimination_grapple option).

However, I suppose we may compile aas files with the grapplereach option anyway... so the maps may already be compatible if sometime in the future someone (Graion Dilach maybe?) would fix gamecode to resolve those little but important bots A.I. bugs. What do you think?
I don't know if the cause of the bug is in gamecode, or in BSPC, or both... but I can guess it should be possible to fix it with gamecode updates.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:11:12 am by Gig » Logged

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jangroothuijse
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« Reply #813 on: July 06, 2013, 04:04:06 am »

Bad news about the offhand grapple. Being a "cut off" q3 feature, it seems that id software left in some bugs in bots a.i. (this explains why bot_grapple variable is disabled by default).
Making some tests, I noticed that if the bot has not collected the grapple yet, but it needs to go to a place that it would reach with the grapple if it had one... it starts pointlessly firing with normal weapons (standing still) aiming to the wall where it would have fired the grapple if it had it. This means that currently, it is not advisable to enable bot_grapple variable, except for tests (e.g. one might use it with elimination_grapple option).

However, I suppose we may compile aas files with the grapplereach option anyway... so the maps may already be compatible if sometime in the future someone (Graion Dilach maybe?) would fix gamecode to resolve those little but important bots A.I. bugs. What do you think?
I don't know if the cause of the bug is in gamecode, or in BSPC, or both... but I can guess it should be possible to fix it with gamecode updates.

Interresting! Bots use fuzzy logic, this could be anywhere from a simple check to see if we actually can grapple to tweaking the 'desire' to use grapple. It should be in gamecode IMHO.

Quick fix for the map though: couldn't you make everyone spawn with a grapple?
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Akom74
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« Reply #814 on: July 06, 2013, 06:45:58 am »

Quick fix for the map though: couldn't you make everyone spawn with a grapple?

Yes, it's possible from the editor.

Wink
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Gig
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« Reply #815 on: July 06, 2013, 01:30:43 pm »

Quick fix for the map though: couldn't you make everyone spawn with a grapple?
I thought about it, but I fear that having all players always with the grapple may change the gameplay too much... I don't know.

What do you think?
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Akom74
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« Reply #816 on: July 06, 2013, 01:39:06 pm »

Quick fix for the map though: couldn't you make everyone spawn with a grapple?
I thought about it, but I fear that having all players always with the grapple may change the gameplay too much... I don't know.

What do you think?

Maybe it's possible to try it before. Tongue

Quote from: Gig
Akom, do you want to recompile oa_akomctf1 AAS file with that option active, and take a look to the results?

At theese days i have some time but i think that bots don't need to play with grapple to seems humans. In the online play it's different.

Wink
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jangroothuijse
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« Reply #817 on: July 06, 2013, 05:21:51 pm »

Quick fix for the map though: couldn't you make everyone spawn with a grapple?
I thought about it, but I fear that having all players always with the grapple may change the gameplay too much... I don't know.

What do you think?

Maybe it's possible to try it before. Tongue

If thats not the gameplay you meant, then it could indeed be weird...did you want the grapple to be very exclusive?
It could be that the original issue can be fixed..if not than bots cannot grapple i guess?



New test version of oajgdm2:
http://jan.groothuijse.net/img/oajgdm2beta3.pk3

Features:
- New teleporters
- Slightly changed layout

Note:
Indeed the beta of the mappack interferes with the shader file in this one, please rename the mappack to something oa wont pick up. Or use a clean directory.

Screens:






Left on the todo's:
- Support for more gamemodes (notably domination, and possibly ctf (i liked that suggestion) and double domination)
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #818 on: July 07, 2013, 07:14:07 am »

Uploaded latest versions to the server and updated links on the Wiki article.
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pelya
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« Reply #819 on: July 07, 2013, 12:38:07 pm »

I've fixed minor bugs in OAJGCTF1, download it here.
Gametype names can be looked up here in OAX sources - there's no "obelisk", it's called "overload".
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #820 on: July 07, 2013, 05:19:27 pm »

Uploaded to the server, also renamed the file to z_oajgctf1-130707.pk3, for convenience.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #821 on: July 07, 2013, 08:55:15 pm »

I've been playing a bit some of the maps. Tomorrow I'll play the rest.

- oa_akomdm1 and oa_akomdm3 are practically flawless. The latter has some bits of inspiration from q3dm6 part, amirite? Tongue
- oa_akomdm2 is flawless as well, though a cosmetic change wouldn't be bad: in the upper level, the central pit to the MH could be marked in some way.
- oa_akomdm4 is pretty cool. Yet, there's something... the Battle Suit doesn't work with the void, and there's not much reason to place it, aside of the splash damage of some weapons. What about another powerup? I'm thinking on the Invulnerability, it could be a good powerup in this map.
- oa_akomdm5 has an inconvenient with the framerate. Namely, those yellow lights. Patches with light do a lot of stress in the engine, with the consecquent lose of FPS. This is something we've learnt from trying to improve oasago2 and ps9ctf. Those lights must be changed to something which doesn't require patches, but plain ol' brushes.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #822 on: July 07, 2013, 09:31:06 pm »

More feedback, with the remaining FFA maps:

- oajgdm1 - Pretty cool theme. Haven't found anything bad with it.
- oajgdm2 - Avoid using flared light shaders in patches (causes FPS slowdown), and try to disperse the ammo. The idea of ammo far from their weapons is that it makes the player travel more the map. There are some exceptions, all of them depend on the weapon. But the idea is that the player must travel the map to get what he wants.
- oajgdm3 - Same as above: avoid using flared light shaders in patches, they slow down the FPS.
- udestruction - Whoa! It's... big... It reminds me of a map from Doom 2, isn't it? For your ¿first? attempt at mapping, Gig, I must say, in complete seriousness, that udestruction it's extremely impressive. Even I can't reach some of the stuff you did. Congratulations! (Though I'm still searching for the BFG...) A suggestion I can make is to create more places (poles, broken walls maybe?) where to exploit the grappling hook. I feel that maps like this are made for that weapon.
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« Reply #823 on: July 08, 2013, 01:39:40 am »

Gametype names can be looked up here in OAX sources - there's no "obelisk", it's called "overload".

You're right. I just tested in-game. Unlike when using in "gametype" key, when using in .arena files, we have to write "overload" and not "obelisk". I just updated the table here.

- udestruction - Whoa! It's... big... It reminds me of a map from Doom 2, isn't it?
Not really, at least, not voluntarily. I don't know which map you are thinking at (could you please link some screenshot or video of it?). And I didn't play Doom2 so much. The only inspirations were (very, very mild...!) ospca1 (meaning a map where rocket jumps would be welcome... I don't play that map since a looong time, but for some reason I think that included something that inspired me for the scaffolding), and mabe a very little of q3dm6 (when the pillars where not connected each other... however it was very different than the bigger and squared pillars of q3dm6 since the beginning, and now it's more different since when I connected the pillars together for better bot behavior).
Quote
For your ┐first? attempt at mapping, Gig, I must say, in complete seriousness, that udestruction it's extremely impressive. Even I can't reach some of the stuff you did. Congratulations! (Though I'm still searching for the BFG...) A suggestion I can make is to create more places (poles, broken walls maybe?) where to exploit the grappling hook. I feel that maps like this are made for that weapon.
Actually, it's my "second" map (if you remember, its first alpha was called "test2")... I have a yet-unreleased "test1" map that I fear I will never complete... it has got some ideas that I like (I placed many ideas in it... e.g. the bridge that connects the two towers in udestruction comes from that map, although there are two twin bridges over a pit there), but it has got too many tech problems (I did not know about some kinds of errors generated by the editor, at the beginning... Now I know that one has to try avoiding using "csg subtract" and "free rotate" fuctions as much as possible... and that when "dragging edges" one has to avoid making two faces becoming one, but at that time, I didn't know). So, that map could be used as an ispiration to create another one from scratch, but I think I will not have time for a such huge work again. I may publish it in the future, so maybe someone of you guys may get inspiration for creating a new map using some interesting ideas from that one.

About udestruction, thank you. Actually, I've spent much, much more time than what I planned on it. Its first beta was on March...... general layout did not change a lot, but I've done various small changes and improvements (especially with textures) since there.

By the way, as you can see in V8, I've placed that grass under the BFG door button, and I've illuminated that area some more than the rest of that wall (or did I do the illuminating tweak there for V9? I don't remember).... what more should I do to have people find it? Should I place something extremely colorful, like my "stripes" shader? But that could be overkill... I mean, that button is not a gametype objective! It should be something I can disable with the "!gametype" key without causing problems to bots. Should I move it again?

For the grappling hook thing, I have to say that I REALLY HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT WHAT TO DO. The only changes I did with it after V8 (I want to release V9 this week) are to change respawn time from default (30 secs in TDM, 5 secs in all other modes, IIRC) to 15 seconds (do you think it's a bad idea?), and to place a low-weight (15) item_botroam near it (just in case in future some developer may fix bots bugs).
I might try giving it to all players by default, but:
1) Bots still have some problems using it (I've seen them missing an edge by a few centimeters when firing the grapple, but repeating the same exact launch various times without correcting the trajectory). A gamecode update would be necessary to have fully working bots with grapple. Of course, I will compile the .aas with the grapplereach option, for the map to be ready if and when that will happen.
2) In current OA, bot_grapple variable is disabled by default. Of course, we may temporarily enable it in the map rotation script we may include with OACMP01, but how many pepole will actually use those scripts? And more, if one breaks the scripts and then loads another map compiled with -grapplereach option without disabling bot_grapple? In that case, bots would pointlessly shoot with standard weapons where they would shoot with the grapple, if they do not have it. Well, I suppose that currently, very few .aas files have been compiled with the -grapplereach option, but who knows.
2.1) If and when bot behavior in gamecode will be fixed, I think that it would be safer to change the name of the bot_grapple variable, trying to avoid people finding bot grapple support enabled when playing with any old mod or old OA version, where bot_grapple support will remain buggy forever. But then a map rotation script with bot_grapple option would be outdated!
3) Having all players using it would change gameplay a lot. Of course, if all of them have it, that would be fair... but that's something quite different. Do you think that would be better?
4) Having all human players using grapple may be unfair against bots, who do not use it by default?
5) Adding extra platforms/broken walls to invite to use it more is something I have no time to do this week... maybe for a version10, but not for version9. And I have a deadline this Friday, because then I will be in vacation and will not be available at all for 10-15 days.
6) Maybe for the moment, we may just suggest (in map readme/wiki page) to try playing the map in Elimination, CTF Elimination, LMS mode (or any other mode with g_elimination) with elimination_grapple option active?

I really don't know, I'm very confused about this.

Just a curiosity: which stuff you say you can't reach? Optically and technically it is not so advanced, compared to other maps. For various shaders, I scavenged from existing oa shaders, just making few changes and applying them to my own textures or modified oa textures. I have not even understood what you guys mean with "patches"...

Quote
More feedback, with the remaining FFA maps:
You forgot there is also a FFA map from Moixie.  Wink

PS: If you want to do a try, I may sneak in "grapple for everyone" in V9 (as a test: tell me you will give me the ability to release at least a V10 before the official OACMP01 release!). Just tell me exactly what I have to do to achieve this. Do I have to connect a "target_give" to the grappling hook, then connect ALL spawn points to that target_give? I hoped that was something quicker to do/undo.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 11:54:27 pm by Gig » Logged

I never want to be aggressive, offensive or ironic with my posts. If you find something offending in my posts, read them again searching for a different mood there. If you still see something bad with them, please ask me infos. I can be wrong at times, but I never want to upset anyone.
Moixie
Lesser Nub


Cakes 6
Posts: 124



« Reply #824 on: July 08, 2013, 02:34:44 am »

I didn't post newer versions since the 21th of February, let's do it !

Mx2Dm5: "Plan 9 From Outer Space"



-> Jumpads bug is fixed. (the doors close just when you get over them, no more just when you touch the floor)
-> Bots are now able to take jumps. (they never do but they can, in the worst cases they still can use a rocket jump)
-> Globally, jumpads are easier to be taken. If you just jump on it and do not touch your keyboard anymore, wherever you fall on the push, you shouldn't fall in the void.
-> No more compatibility with CTF/Harvester/Oneflag/Overload. The map wasn't playable for none of this gametypes and the way used pissed me off: there were no more marks on walls, and the map could get laggy. I'd do another version if the compatibility was so important, the actual shape of the map isn't done for it, it should be larger and less curvy.

http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4679.0;attach=4518

Mx3Ctf8: "Turtles Forever"



-> New bases ! Much better, the below corridors may not be unuseful anymore.
-> New light ! Looks much better.
-> Compatibility with all gametypes, it should be fun to play it on DoubleDom or Harvester (can't wait).

http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4679.0;attach=4519
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 02:41:58 am by Moixie » Logged
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