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Author Topic: So I've removed the current music  (Read 32960 times)
fromhell
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« on: December 12, 2007, 08:48:40 AM »

From now on, it's strictly going to be tracker music (.mod, .it, .xm, .s3m)that gets rendered to .ogg for the release; no exceptions. I'm sorry Psymong and Sahchandler - but this had to be done sooner or later.

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w1zrd
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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2007, 08:56:26 AM »

From now on, it's strictly going to be tracker music (.mod, .it, .xm, .s3m)that gets rendered to .ogg for the release; no exceptions. I'm sorry Psymong and Sahchandler - but this had to be done sooner or later.
Were they made with Adobe products?
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2007, 12:09:43 PM »

Were they made with Adobe products?

http://cia.vc/stats/project/openarena/.message/72c0a

What's wrong with Adobe?  Because if there is something wrong with using full + legal version's of photoshop or any proprietary product to create textures (and I see nothing in my ps license or paintshop pro license that prevents licensing textures under the GPL.x) that means there will be next to no textures in 0.8 and very few skins.

We all know Evillair used photoshop, I use photoshop, anyone used photoshop, crayon used photoshop, tw3k used photoshop, kick52 used photoshop.

And because this is about US Export laws, how are you stopping anyone on the DPL or the Entity list from playing the game? 

http://www.bis.doc.gov/dpl/delimiteddplinstructions.html#dataspecs
http://www.access.gpo.gov/bis/ear/txt/744spir.txt
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 12:45:03 PM by dmn_clown » Logged

w1zrd
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2007, 01:08:59 PM »

Were they made with Adobe products?

http://cia.vc/stats/project/openarena/.message/72c0a

What's wrong with Adobe?  Because if there is something wrong with using full + legal version's of photoshop or any proprietary product to create textures (and I see nothing in my ps license or paintshop pro license that prevents licensing textures under the GPL.x) that means there will be next to no textures in 0.8 and very few skins.

We all know Evillair used photoshop, I use photoshop, anyone used photoshop, crayon used photoshop, tw3k used photoshop, kick52 used photoshop.

And because this is about US Export laws, how are you stopping anyone on the DPL or the Entity list from playing the game? 

http://www.bis.doc.gov/dpl/delimiteddplinstructions.html#dataspecs
http://www.access.gpo.gov/bis/ear/txt/744spir.txt
I was refering to Adobe Soundbooth CS3 for the music. I bought the Creative Suite which includes Soundbooth and today I found a license part which said something like: contents created with Soundbooth is the intellectual property of Adobe...or something that way (can't be bothered to look it up right now). Photoshop hasn't got any problems, it's one of the better software products in recent years..
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dmn_clown
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2007, 01:36:39 PM »

Could you upload the license.txt file of Soundbooth?

Still waiting to know how many domains have been banned from the svn and the uploaded release packages due to US export laws and how that is being reconciled with the no restrictions on individuals/groups/countries of the GPLv2.
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fromhell
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2007, 01:53:03 PM »

Still waiting to know how many domains have been banned from the svn

None

it's not about OA needing to comply with US export laws, it's about those particular song files. The usage rights of Acid Pro and its prefabricated loops  does not play well with the GPL.
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I do not provide technical support either.

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dmn_clown
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2007, 02:34:56 PM »

Then help me understand, why the removal of psymong's music when we have accepted other things as sourceless (most notably the textures from Nexuiz).

I'm just trying to understand the inconsistency in accepting some things as sourceless but not others.
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fromhell
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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2007, 02:36:06 PM »

Becuase Psymong's music isn't editable in a human-readable format.
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new code development on github
dmn_clown
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« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2007, 05:05:08 PM »

I don't see the difference between editing psymong's finished music in any sound editor and editing evillair's finished textures in any image editor.  Can you explain it or provide a link to where it is explained?
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SAHChandler
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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2007, 05:10:29 PM »

I'm a sad panda. Sad
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w1zrd
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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2007, 12:45:31 AM »

Could you upload the license.txt file of Soundbooth?

Still waiting to know how many domains have been banned from the svn and the uploaded release packages due to US export laws and how that is being reconciled with the no restrictions on individuals/groups/countries of the GPLv2.
I put the license here because it went off-topic from the original topic.
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fromhell
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« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2007, 06:47:00 AM »

I don't see the difference between editing psymong's finished music in any sound editor and editing evillair's finished textures in any image editor.  Can you explain it or provide a link to where it is explained?

"Human-readable":



Not "human-readable". I can't see how you can edit music like this
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Taiyo.uk
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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2007, 08:09:02 AM »

Some open source music and audio apps:

http://www.jokosher.org/
http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/
http://ardour.org/
http://wired.sourceforge.net/
http://jackaudio.org/ - Low-latency audio server used my many open source audio programs. Check the apps list there.

HTH
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dmn_clown
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« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2007, 11:22:55 AM »

I can't see how you can edit music like this

It can be done with the caveat that the audio quality will be lessened, exactly the same way the visual quality of a sourceless texture will be lessened.

If you aren't willing to accept one as sourceless, you shouldn't accept the other.  Be consistent.

Also it should be pointed out that many of the best musicians couldn't read sheet music and played by ear (e.g. waveform) which kinda makes your human-readable example only human readable if you understand sheet music.
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kit89
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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2007, 12:51:13 PM »

Music is one of those grey areas... Its all in the ear rather than the eye.

Though if you remove wave form music would that mean you'd have to remove sound effects? As they are usually not human readable.

As long as you have the original .wav I see no-problems.
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dmn_clown
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« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2007, 02:34:42 PM »

Music is one of those grey areas... Its all in the ear rather than the eye.

Psymong's music was removed from the project because it was sourceless but sourceless textures still remain, and not all of them are evillair originals from Nexuiz.  This would appear to violate the definition of what defines source for the textures.

I don't care about "grey areas," I just want consistency with accurate definitions as to what source is so people that wish to contribute to the project can do so without any confusion and without worrying about what may or may not be removed from the project at some later date.

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w1zrd
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« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2007, 01:51:18 AM »

Then we have the problem what a sourceless texture is. A multi-layered photoshop/GIMP sourced where as a .jpeg/.png/.gif/.tga which are flattened, isnt'.
It is possible to re-create a flattend image, but it takes time.
Same way it is possible to re-create a .wav file, but it takes time.
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Cacatoes
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« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2007, 06:55:57 AM »

It's possible to recreate any artwork, but without the "source" it takes time Wink
The source allows a qualified person to reproduce the final product in a process similar to the one used by the original author, thus offering a degree of freedom when the copy is made.
The problem with artworks is when we create some, we don't necessarily keep a trace of what has been done (it's a rather destructive process), whereas a software keeps every revelant key stroke in its code (mistakes made while typing or previous versions of the code are not really revelant).
This is because we don't always use a medium language when we create an artwork, it can be rather raw.
A C++ code offers the possibility to edit any step, whereas there could be no step in artwork creation.
So you could ask for artworks to give their sources, but that would only mean those which really have, which have been made with a language, and it sounds restrictive to me. Fuck languages in art, I'd say.
Of course, it is good to have the possibility to rearrange some music, or textures, editing intermediate steps when they really exist. But artworks have the big advantage of being editable even in their final form, which makes secondary. the necessity of sources.
So we could translate "give me the source" by "make it editable", and as any artwork would contain its own source, we could accept any Wink
If i'm not wrong, that was the point when asking software sources, "feel free to adapt", and not that much "see and explore my verbose creation, now, even you can understand the intermediate steps I followed to make it".
I don't see where the smiley list is on this forum, a shame.
Kiss :cool:
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dmn_clown
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« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2007, 12:00:26 PM »

Quote
You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

    a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
    source code
, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections
    1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

    b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three
    years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your
    cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
    machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code
, to be
    distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
    customarily used for software interchange; or,

    c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer
    to distribute corresponding source code.  (This alternative is
    allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you
    received the program in object code or executable form with such
    an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

In order to satisfy the GPLv2 with non-code works the source must be defined.  I see no definition as to what source is anywhere within this project other than varying conversations on this forum.  Those source works need to be defined.
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iLeft.bye
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« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2007, 03:37:14 PM »

please dont confuse textures with music
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dmn_clown
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« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2007, 04:54:56 PM »

Please don't assume that I am.
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w1zrd
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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2007, 08:50:51 PM »

I ventured off towards textures, even though topic is about music, but it would rather be what we can, and what we can't use I guess.
We all know that Aggressor comes from Nexuiz, and that it uses Evil Lair's great texture set. So I went to his site (http://www.evillair.net) in search of the E7 package (which is used for Aggressor for instance) for an upcoming GPL project, and on the site, before downloading the package, it says:
Quote
[Copyright/Permissions] -You may not edit, modify any textures within this archive unless given permission to do so by the author. -You may not use these textures as base for your own. -You may convert these textures to other game formats but only with the author's permission. -You may rename the textures. -You may use these texture in your maps/mods/tc's as long as you give me credit. -I encourage you to edit the .shader to suit your needs.
This would be the direct link: http://www.evillair.net/v2/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=0&func=fileinfo&id=7

It confused me a bit (doesn't take much) so I downloaded the pack/s (a few actually) to check the actual ReadMe files, but included was:
Quote
[Stuff]
If you use any of the textures it would be cool if you emailed me with the url to some screenshots if possible.
I really would like to see what uses mappers have made of them.

[Copyright/Permissions]
-You may use these texture in your maps/mods/tc's as long as you give me credit.
-You may not edit, modify any textures within this archive unless given permission to do so by the author. 
-You may convert these textures to other game formats but only with the author's permission (me).

and no copy of any GPL license included.

So the question is, can we use these sets for GPL projects, or not?
I would honestly make the assumption that his textures are not GPL since there are no copies of the license, nor mentioned on his site that they are GPL:ed.

Not only for the sake of our upcoming project, but for Open Arena, Nexuiz and other GPL projects also, what can we really use?

[edit: Updating with what I just found on Evil Lair's site:
Quote
Quake 3 and Quake 4 game textures.
These texture are copyrighted and cannot be used in any commercial game.
If you'd like to use these textures in a commercial game please contact me for contract details.
So by that it would mean that Nexuiz from the start used 'illegal' textures in their maps here, here and here and for us it would be the E7 and E8 packages, which would mean Aggressor, and Hydronex, including everything else based on E1-E8.]
I really hope that I have misunderstood something here...
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 09:13:57 PM by w1zrd » Logged

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beast
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« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2007, 12:04:21 AM »

Doesn't look like a misunderstanding to me... The license info from the site is not compatible with the GPL, so... It looks like ( IMHO) the textures should be removed...
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iLeft.bye
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« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2007, 03:47:37 AM »

the textures in nexuiz is GPL
however the same textures you can find on evillair's  site is CC

so dont use the ones on the site, get them from nexuiz
(evillair let them release his textures under GPL)

lol-situation
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dmn_clown
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« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2007, 08:26:50 AM »

the textures in nexuiz are GPL

But he never bothered releasing any source which leaves his textures in the same league as blobs within the kernel, packages with "missing headers," etc.

A violation of section 3 of the GPL depending on your interpretation of what source is.
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