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sago007
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« Reply #350 on: August 18, 2016, 12:33:14 AM »

However, for the changes against B51, I suppose it also contains cg_oldrail 2 & 3, and probably also some other Fromhell's tweaks that I don't know how to enable, right?
Possible, but I only have the git commit log to make the list from.

Also, maybe the changelog may contain (or link forum posts with) infos about how to actually use the new features (e.g. how to make the script for empty server etc.)...
It will take some time. Some of the features I don't remember implementing.

PS: excuse me, I noticed in the description of this diff https://github.com/OpenArena/gamecode/commit/5e309c9b9dd3e16a1a7c86187e13a23a22bfee52
"targetname is now case sensitive". Is that something only related with the elimination-special doors or what? Because it sounds like something capable of breaking potentially many existing maps...
It is only the new name so it will not break anything existing.
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« Reply #351 on: August 18, 2016, 03:16:35 PM »

It looks like we really need some way to keep trace of new features as long as they are implemented, otherwise OA3 will contain a lot of cool things which noone will use because noone will know about their usage or even about their existence...

Ideas are welcome... maybe something like Fromhell did here?
 (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/New_shader_commands

Or maybe just using the wishlist page? (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Wishlist ? But that does not seem the right place to explain how to use a feature... but only to link the explainations from elsewhere...
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« Reply #352 on: August 18, 2016, 04:27:53 PM »

 relying on Wikia for information on them isn't a good idea either.  The OA wikia is already filled with clutter causing it to not be easy to read
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I do not provide technical support either.

new code development on github
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« Reply #353 on: August 19, 2016, 01:14:35 AM »

Some ideas?

Just writing them on this thread as soon as Sago does them, while a good thing, has got two drawbacks: naming here things which are not yet in OAX "B" version (one may write them in the nightly builds thread instead?) and some difficulty to sum them up when needed due to many other posts in the middle.

A dedicated thread with the changes always mentioned in the first post? But posts become locked after a few days (Sago cannot update the first post of this thread, as example)...

A dedicated thread locked in a way that only Fromhell and Sago can write in it?

A plain text file in Sago's own computer? But what about Fromhell's changes?

Some kind of page on Github, where Sago and Fromhell can both write?

A dedicated page on wikia?

Other?

PS: just relying on Github changes, other than hard to follow, can sometimes also be misleading (as in the "case sensitive" thing from yesterday)...
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« Reply #354 on: August 19, 2016, 04:12:17 AM »

I think we should talk about the wiki in the respective thread, so this doesn't end in the derailing of the thread.
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« Reply #355 on: August 19, 2016, 12:14:59 PM »

I think we should talk about the wiki in the respective thread, so this doesn't end in the derailing of the thread.
Well, it's not exactly "about the wiki", it's about "how to keep a changelog which does list all the (notable) changes (to allow a good public OA3.0.0 changelog at the very end), and to allow to find the infos required to actually use the new features?"... which may bring to using the wiki, or to using another medium... we don't know yet.

It's not nice to see "New version: new features are A, B and IDK... Instructions to use them are I don't remember...".
No offence to Sago at all, just trying to find a way to help him.
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« Reply #356 on: August 19, 2016, 01:59:03 PM »

The commit comments will always be short. They will be hard to understand but they will be there. Any other form of running documentation will miss stuff (I have seen that). They serve as a reminder for me so that I can remember that I did and when I did it.

I may not be able to remember how "Added ability to execute a script when the server is empty." was implemented but I know that it was implemented and I can relatively quickly tell how it works if someone needs to know.
I can look at https://github.com/OpenArena/gamecode/commit/5e309c9b9dd3e16a1a7c86187e13a23a22bfee52 and see right away I would omit that from a change log.

I am not going to squash my commits to give cleaner commit messages. It is highly destructive to my work flow.
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« Reply #357 on: August 20, 2016, 01:16:40 AM »

Wait, I did not want to tell you to change your commit shedule. I was just trying to think about a place to write down notable changes in a way you and others could find them more easily. If you think it's not necessary/suitable, it's okay anyway.  Smiley

Can I however suggest to try to briefly mention related filenames/cvars/key-values in oax changelogs like this? https://github.com/OpenArena/gamecode/releases/tag/oaxB52
E.g. what's the filename of the script file which will be executed when everyone will leave the server?
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« Reply #358 on: September 01, 2016, 03:43:51 AM »

Many years ago I talked about adding an .info file: http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=1908.msg47956#msg47956
A "maps/oasago2.info" could look like this:
Code:
auther Sago007
description "After the of the first castle. Sago's second castle was redesigned with multiple layers of defence. After getting past the outer wall the attackers would have little defence. It was hoped that no one would even dare to attack. That turned out to not be the case."

Excuse me Sago, why "auther" instead of "author"? I thought it was just a typo in that specific example, but I see you used "auther" also in this other example...

And what's the filename of the script file which will be executed when everyone will leave the server?
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« Reply #359 on: September 01, 2016, 10:21:10 AM »

Excuse me Sago, why "auther" inestad of "author"? I thought it was just a typo in that specific example
It was a typo that just got copied around. It will be fixed.
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« Reply #360 on: September 02, 2016, 03:25:53 AM »

Excuse me, another question. I just noticed this line:
Quote
If you include an info_player_deathmatch entity in a CTF map, players from both teams can respawn at that location. Great for placing respawn spots in contested central battleground areas.
DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Additional_gametype_support#info_player_deathmatch]in our mapping manual, which has been taken from here: http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/q3radiant_manual/appndx/appn_b_4.htm

Is this true? Is it still this way in current OAX? In all team-based gametypes? Has it been changed at some point (e.g. being true for baseq3 and old mods only)?
I haven't done specific tests yet... I ever thought that, if there was at least one team-dedicated spawn point, in CTF (and similar) modes, all deathmatch spawn points would have been ignored. But that phrase tells the opposite (almost the opposite... tells that both team-based and team-free spawn points would be used). Thus, the risk of making player of a team spawn in the enemy base?
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« Reply #361 on: September 02, 2016, 08:23:39 AM »

Hmmmm, if the map already contains info_player_deathmatch inside of the bases (and plenty of maps do this because, for some reason, Deathmatch is played on CTF maps) that means a blue player may spawn inside of the red base and viceversa. I'm not sure if I agree with that feature.
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« Reply #362 on: September 02, 2016, 12:42:21 PM »

The manual is incomplete. info_player_deathmatch is only used if there are no other alternatives. Omitting "team_CTF_*player" causes all players to spawn at random places on the map on map start (but not on respawn).
If designing a Elimination map you can easily rely on info_player_deathmatch for the initial spawn because all players will respawn at least once before the game starts.

info_player_deathmatch is the fallback spawnpoints. They will only be used if there are no other spawnpoints. This behavior is unmodified.
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« Reply #363 on: September 02, 2016, 08:25:03 PM »

The CTF flags don't hide in Deathmatch even when they have "notffa" set to "1".
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« Reply #364 on: September 06, 2016, 10:06:07 AM »

The CTF flags don't hide in Deathmatch even when they have "notffa" set to "1".
Wasn't that supposed to be "notfree/1" key/value pair? With "notfree", it looks like it works for me...
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« Reply #365 on: September 06, 2016, 11:05:35 AM »

The manual is incomplete. info_player_deathmatch is only used if there are no other alternatives. Omitting "team_CTF_*player" causes all players to spawn at random places on the map on map start (but not on respawn).
If designing a Elimination map you can easily rely on info_player_deathmatch for the initial spawn because all players will respawn at least once before the game starts.

info_player_deathmatch is the fallback spawnpoints. They will only be used if there are no other spawnpoints. This behavior is unmodified.

I had to do some tests to fully understand what you meant (not due to your fault, but due to my inexperience in making CTF maps)... I think now I got it.

I did this try with a small box map. I loaded the map in CTF mode (g_gametype 4), using recent gamecode nightly builds (and of August 2016/first of September 2016. I don't think anything player-spawn related changed the last two weeks, right?).


Test 1:
I placed only ONE info_player_deathmatch (no spawnflags) and ONE team_ctf_redplayer there... there is some item and trigger due to some other test, but no more player related spawn spoint.
I joined the game as BLUE player. It spawned at info_player_deathmatch. I used "/kill" to suicide several times; it respawned always in the same place. As expected.
I joined the game as RED player. It spawned at team_ctf_redplayer only the first time. I used "/kill" to suicide several times; it respawned always in the info_player_deathmatch then. A mapper would probably not want this result.

Test 2:
I placed only ONE info_player_deathmatch (no spawnflags) and ONE team_ctf_redspawn there... there is some item and trigger due to some other test, but no more player related spawn spoint.
I joined the game as BLUE player. It spawned at info_player_deathmatch. I used "/kill" to suicide several times; it respawned always in the same place. As expected.
I joined the game as RED player. It spawned at info_player_deathmatch only the first time. I used "/kill" to suicide several times; it respawned always in the team_ctf_redspawn then. A mapper would probably not want this result.

Test 3:
I placed only ONE info_player_deathmatch (no spawnflags), ONE team_ctf_redplayer and ONE team_ctf_redspawn there... there is some item and trigger due to some other test, but no more player related spawn spoint.
I joined the game as BLUE player. It spawned at info_player_deathmatch. I used "/kill" to suicide several times; it respawned always in the same place. As expected.
I joined the game as RED player. It spawned at team_ctf_redplayer only the first time. I used "/kill" to suicide several times; it respawned always in the team_ctf_redspawn then. As expected.

I repeated the three tests adding spawnflags 1 to info_player_deathmatch.
Adding "spawnflags/1" (meaning "initial") to info_player_deathmatch does not seem to change anything in this particular environment (maybe due to the fact I have only one spawn point of that kind); team_ctf_redplayer and team_ctf_redspawn seem not to be listed as support such spawnfliag, probably because definition of the spawn point itself is "initial" ("...player") or "not" ("...spawn").

Note: for time reasons, I haven't checked with more than one player, or with bots in the arena. Also, I have tried in plain old CTF mode only, and with only one spawn point of each mentioned kind.

To sum up, it looks like if you want to make a CTF map, you must place both team_ctf_redplayer and team_ctf_redspawn, otherwise players would spawn at deathmatch spawn points, at re-spawns or at initial spawn depending from the team spawn point kind missing.
And it also looks like that when the Radiant manual suggests that deathmatch spawn points can be used to make characters sometimes spawn in the middle of the map while also continuing to spawn in their "right" bases, it's wrong.

Do you think I'm right?

I never did a CTF map... previously, I thought the team "player" and "spawn" points were one the fallback of the other, if one of the two was not used... while instead the fallback is directly the deatchmatch one!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 12:33:31 AM by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #366 on: September 06, 2016, 11:30:11 AM »

Good explanation Gig. It was what I meant but it is hard to explain. Your examples shows it well.

Note: for time reasons, I haven't checked with more than one player, or with bots in the arena. Also, I have tried in plain old CTF mode only, and with only one spawn point of each mentioned kind.
It is the same for Overload and Harvester. Theoretically also for Elimination and CTF Elimination although everyone are moved to the respawn points during warmup (although now that I think about it, there might be a problem if a player joins during the warmup but after the respawn). Domination and Double Domination uses completly different spawn points and does not have this behavior.

I think I remember one of the original VQ3 maps (or perhaps another custom map) used the case from "Test 2". That way all players spawned in an offensive position. It could potentially be what you want.

Do you think I'm right?
Yes

That being said rather no team_ctf_redplayer/blueplayer than too few team_ctf_redplayer/blueplayer or you would experience a lot of telefragging.
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« Reply #367 on: September 07, 2016, 12:46:24 AM »

And it also looks like that when the Radiant manual suggests that deathmatch spawn points can be used to make characters sometimes spawn in the middle of the map while also continuing to spawn in their "right" bases, it's wrong.

Uhm... reading again that passage:
Quote
If you include an info_player_deathmatch entity in a CTF map, players from both teams can respawn at that location. Great for placing respawn spots in contested central battleground areas.
Now that I know the behavior, it looks like to me that they meant the possibility of making an "unconventional" ctf map where all players from both teams would always (re)spawn in the middle of the map, instead of in/near their own base (using only info_player_deathmatch instead of using team_ctf_*player and team_ctf*spawn). Do you think they meant that?

In our wiki page, should I simply remove that sentence, or should I modify it to mention the possibility of the unconventional ctf map, as I wrote here?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 04:34:09 AM by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #368 on: September 07, 2016, 12:58:28 AM »

Theoretically also for Elimination and CTF Elimination although everyone are moved to the respawn points during warmup (although now that I think about it, there might be a problem if a player joins during the warmup but after the respawn).
In case you think about making some tweak to Elimination spawn procedure, maybe you may also find the right trick to fix that bug that sometimes casuses half players initially spawning dead in warmup?

Quoting from (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Bugs page:
Quote
* In Elimination mode, during the "inactive" elimination warmup, players of one of the two teams spawn in a place where there should not be spawn points (e.g. in a wall), '''and immediately die'''; then they can only spectate other players, until the "active" warmup time begins (at that time, they spawn again and take control of their character). Related post
** If also g_dowarmup (generic warmup) is active, they will experience the instant death two times: the first at the beginning og the g_dowarmup time, and the second at the beginning of the "inactive" elimination warmup. It seems to affect Elimination (gametype 8) and CTF Elimination (gametype 9), but not Last Man Standing (gametype 10, similar but without teams) mode.
** Also related to the above, in ''Elimination'' and ''CTF Elimination'', just after ''initial'' map loading, you can see the arena from an unexpected point of view, for a few moments. This is due to the fact that the spawn-routine is disabled until the warm-up begins, and thus you will see the map from 0,0,0 (facing 360) coordinates for a while. It's not a major problem (you will correctly spawn soon: this time depends from the difference between elimination_warmup and elimination_activewarmup variables), but anyway, the case 0,0,0 may be the external void or inside a wall. It can be noticed in few situations only, e.g. while starting the map from the Skirmish menu. Mentioned in Sago's reply to this post.
Note: I haven't re-checked this with nightly gamecode builds, but I don't remember you mentioning fixing it, or noticed a such thing in git changes history.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 04:35:03 AM by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #369 on: September 07, 2016, 09:31:52 AM »

Oh, it's "notfree" I don't know why I used "notffa". I'll change that when I come back to home.
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« Reply #370 on: September 08, 2016, 02:07:42 AM »

Excuse me Sago, two things:
The first one is probably not worth spending time... however, after doing the tests mentioned above, I did left the map with no deathmatch spawn points, so while testing another thing, the player spawned at 0, 0, 0 coordinates (okay, it's a new OAX feature), but when I did a /map_restart, if the player was still in the area near 0,0,0, the character auto-telefragged itself!
I don't think it's worth losing your time, as it looks like this only happens in this "extreme" scenery, however you know that I point out what I find!

The second one is a small thing, but it's annoying me since Q3A.
The gametype mentoined while waiting for a map restart is wrong, if the gametype is going to be changed.
When there is the countdown for a map restart, it says the name of the gametype (e.g. "Capture the flag will start in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...")... but if the gametype is scheduled to be changed (if you check g_gametype, the console mentions the new value as "latched: n"), the message is wrong, because it still mentions the old gametype. If that's an easy thing and you think it has no backfiring risks, it would be a nice to fix it. Thank you.
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« Reply #371 on: September 08, 2016, 05:18:35 AM »

I did some small change to our wiki page about gametype support, according to what it seems from the posts above.
If you wish to take a look to those changes... (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Mapping_manual%2FAdditional_gametype_support&diff=17637&oldid=17567
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 06:35:40 AM by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #372 on: September 13, 2016, 09:19:20 AM »

Sago, any further thoughts about what was said in the posts above?

Also, still about spawn points:
I noticed DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Mapping_manual%2FAdditional_gametype_support&diff=17638&oldid=17637]this edit of yours. Okay, but is there some reason you mentioned "info_player_start" (which I thought was "deprecated") instead of "info_player_deathmatch"?
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« Reply #373 on: September 13, 2016, 12:06:41 PM »

There is one and only one reason why I fallback to 0,0,0 and that is to prevent the game from crashing. The game should really crash if devmap was used so the mapper may notice that the map is flawed.

The game cannot reliably know witch gametype you are changing to. It can check g_egs witch will be set to one if g_gametype has changed but it will not know which gametype we are changing to (as far as I know the qvm cannot see the future value of a latched cvar). It can also have false positives (0 changed to 1 and back to 0). It will also need to be transported to the client witch is never a good thing.

The changes to gametype support seems fine.

Quote
Okay, but is there some reason you mentioned "info_player_start" (which I thought was "deprecated") instead of "info_player_deathmatch"?
Pure oversight from my side.
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« Reply #374 on: September 15, 2016, 01:04:18 AM »

The game should really crash if devmap was used so the mapper may notice that the map is flawed.
Do you mean you already did it this way, or that you should modify it to make it this way? Because I just did a try (with a recent nightly build, although not the latest one), and even if I loaded the map with devmap, it spawned at 0,0,0 without crashing.

Quote
The game cannot reliably know witch gametype you are changing to. It can check g_egs witch will be set to one if g_gametype has changed but it will not know which gametype we are changing to (as far as I know the qvm cannot see the future value of a latched cvar). It can also have false positives (0 changed to 1 and back to 0). It will also need to be transported to the client witch is never a good thing.
Oh. It's a bit sad due to it being an awkward thing; however if implementing it would be against "good practices", oh well... patience...

By the way, it's also a bit odd the fact that the user interface does not even show the gametype you are currently playing, except during the countdown for a map restart and during the warmup (it's also shown in the map loading screen, but today's PCs and SSDs speeds make it hard to read). Maybe OA3 user interface may show it somewhere, e.g. in the score table?

PS: I was trying to understand if in Elimination, team_ctf_*player are ever used, as DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Additional_gametype_support#Per-gametype_entity_support]in this table they are currently listed as not needed at all in such mode. But I'm not so sure about my tests, maybe they are used the very first time only (more or less as one might expect, in the end)?
More, I have some doubt about the difference of inactive and active warmup (other than in the inactive one is possible to fall in the bug which makes you spawn dead), could you please tell me what was this difference meant for?

Thank you, and sorry if annoying you!


PPS (but probably this is more for Fromhell): any news about OA3 interface (based upont TA-ui) progress status? Just for curiosity...
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 01:11:26 AM by Gig » Logged

I never want to be aggressive, offensive or ironic with my posts. If you find something offending in my posts, read them again searching for a different mood there. If you still see something bad with them, please ask me infos. I can be wrong at times, but I never want to upset anyone.
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