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Gig
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« Reply #425 on: November 22, 2016, 11:27:31 am »

It worked for 17 years? Hm..., I don't see this display in modern games.
I meant Q3A + all of its mods, and OpenArena + all of its mods.

PS: I'm not used to modern games. Occasionally I watched some youtuber playing some modern games, but...

PPS: About the rest, I have to read your post more carefully, I have to go now. Bye!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 11:30:32 am by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #426 on: November 22, 2016, 11:31:13 am »

It's not exactly "modern games".  Half-Life had this way back in '98 and it was a great way to present information.  All Valve multiplayer games afterward did exactly the same., and moving vital game information off the console notify feed at the top also opens up some space for new hud elements in the top left and the top of the screen which can present information more clearly, like flag status, score, and maybe even a clear team overlay.

Quake Live eventually gained iconographic obituaries too FYI BTW.  Just because we've got some well-tuned-and-rather-timeless 17-year-old gameplay preserved doesn't mean we have to stick with 17-year-old presentation and keep the game looking old on the surface.  I remember trying to convince you that horizontal widescreen expansion was a commonly accepted thing

The HUD is a thing id really really skimped out on in Q3A and was noticably bare compared to the contemporaries of its day (i.e. UT, and the aforementioned HL).  Technically it had the least changes from when it was a 1998 prototype
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 11:44:49 am by fromhell » Logged

asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
Progress of OA3 currently occurs behind closed doors alone

I do not provide technical support either.

new code development on github
Gig
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« Reply #427 on: November 22, 2016, 01:37:55 pm »

I'm not saying I don't like the iconographic thing, just that it comes with a "price" which may be worth or not... (due to being something not foreseen by original developers).
I don't want to keep OpenArena stuck in the past, while not forgetting its roots... I was trying to figure out possible ways to manage the console output problem.

There are some things that would be useful, but Sago doesn't like because they would overcomplicate things or would be against good coding practices in general (e.g. fixing the name of the next match gametype I mentioned earlier). I had the impression that Sago may be on the idea of "don't fix what is not broken" generally speaking... however generalizing I may be wrong.

About the widescreen thing... I don't remember the details, however probably I was mostly worried about being sure of not breaking view for non-wide screen users... Also, a few years passed since then, widescreens are even more diffused now (4:3 users should not be forgotten anyway).

There are some things I have to read again in 1pixel's posts (I thought in one he said the iconographic deaths were only the first step and he aimed to get rid of upper left console in hud, but later he said it's not exactly like that). I still have to completely understand his view... I have to read that again...
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 02:56:48 pm by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #428 on: November 22, 2016, 02:22:47 pm »

"don't fix what is not broken"
Actually I really dislike that sentence. Because it is usually interpreted as "don't fix anything".
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Gig
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« Reply #429 on: November 22, 2016, 02:54:14 pm »

"don't fix what is not broken"
Actually I really dislike that sentence. Because it is usually interpreted as "don't fix anything".
I interpet it as "Don't overcomplicate things. If something already works, think twice before changing it, because you may break it or make it worse .". I don't think it as "don't fix anything" (of course, others could). In case I may use that phrase again the future, you know what I mean with it.

You know I'm for fixing things, especially bugs (by the way, did you notice this?)..
I'm sorry I'm not capable of doing it myself...
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 04:30:36 pm by Gig » Logged

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Gig
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« Reply #430 on: November 23, 2016, 03:12:42 am »

After giving another read to 1pixel's posts...

So far it goes like this:

cg_obituaryOutput 0 - old style, output only to console (and the top left screen which is console notification)
cg_obituaryOutput 1 - text output to lower left, no output to console
cg_obituaryOutput 2 - icon output to lower left, no output to console
cg_obituaryOutput [other values]  - no output, should this be an option?

If I leave the console output with 1 and 2, it would just show a duplicate message on screen (top left and lower left), that is, without messing with con_drawnotify or changing con_notifytime..

If text is too fast to keep track of, there is an alternative of having a variable to increase fade time and/or increase the number of lines that display the frag output on the HUD.
I guess that list may be modified or expanded to:
- include a way to show icon output on upper right (as Fromhell suggested). I don't know if as an additional option or just moving the lower left to upper right.
- include an additional value to show both icon output (to lower left or upper right, for me it's the same) plus the old text in upper left/console log. (Yes, I'm still curious to test it this way. You may say that would be odd, but I would like to check it personally... Smiley).
- If a "no obituary output at all" option would exist (no console, no hud), maybe it should be the one related to value "0" of the cg_obituaryOutput cvar?

I took one part of what is relevant to the client and took it elsewhere. There are still other messages (player entered the game, flag dropped, etc.).

My idea is that any info relevant to the client should be coded/displayed separately, and controlled from the ui files,
and the top left corner is unnecessary and should be used only to display warnings in debug mode, maybe not even that.
This is what made me think that 1pixel's plan was to more or less completely get rid of upper left console notify area...
Perhaps you misunderstood, my intention was never to disable the console output. I only suggested that for the frag messages since they tend to be spammy.
Then, it was not so... or maybe I was talking about removing console notification area as it is now (thinking that was your final idea) and you understood I was talking about disabling console log?
With "was never to disable the console output", did you mean the "console log" or the "upper left area"? In the previous post, I thought you were talking about completely redoing the upper left area to became cgame controlled (to be able to decide what to print there and what not), while still keeping the "console log" unchanged as it ever worked... (apart from the optional ability to disable obituary to console log, which was your initial intention)

If the upper left notification, "the console output feedback" was disabled completely, we could return back the console frag messages (or to satisfy my idea, make a toggle variable cg_obituariesToConsole).

To reiterate, my idea is to disable "the console output feedback", not to disable console output, not to add bunch of code to engine to separate what goes into "the console output feedback" and what does not.
I got lost a bit here. With "console output feedback" do you mean "upper left notification" and with "console output" you mean "console log", or what?
In some parts of your posts, I had the impression you wanted to get rid of the "upper left notification area" as it is now, in other parts not...  Huh

PS: changing topic a little.
I know I should have said this earlier. Forgive me.
This is just a question (I repeat: a question)...
Text obituary works this way (X dies, Y attacks):
X got Y's rocket (normal kill)
X cratered (normal suicide)

Iconographic obituary works this way:
Y <rocket icon> X (normal kill)
<skull icon> X (normal suicide)

Or should it have been this way instead?
X <rocket icon> Y (normal kill)
X <skull icon> (normal suicide)

I ask this just to use the same logic (x killed by y) for both text and iconographic, to be more intuitive. But I haven't played recent games, so maybe "Y <rocket icon> X" is more "standard" for nowadays players. I'm just asking.

Each of us has a different opinion on these things. Maybe we should make a poll out of our player base. Grin
I just got here a few weeks ago. I don't want to sound patronizing, but you need some way to settle/agree/have a plan on this thing.
I was just asking. As said, I'm not used with iconographic obituary. Fromhell's and Sago's opinions (as well as other people wanting to contribute) would be welcome.

PS: About that old widescreen discussion, maybe a question was something like "if you have the same cg_fov value and two different resolution ratios, does that mean that the world will look a bit distorted in one of the two?"?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 06:00:45 am by Gig » Logged

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sago007
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« Reply #431 on: November 23, 2016, 11:42:47 am »

I fully support the functionality as implemented in Pull Request #11 right now. Aside from a few changes I have requested to the code I would like to merge that as soon as possible so that we have something real to talk about. I think we are in the "scope creep" phase right now. Everything we do will just make it worse.
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« Reply #432 on: November 23, 2016, 07:46:24 pm »

I think I made all the changes requested. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Gig
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« Reply #433 on: November 24, 2016, 01:06:12 am »

Can I say that I find really hard to follow changes history on github? I only see a "pull request" from idrone, which lists only ONE commit... it says "Commits on Nov 22 2016 - committed 8 days ago" (today it's 24). Looking at the changes of the commit, it shows me the final version, including the fixes asked by Sago two days ago...
Where do I find the intemediate commits?  Undecided

I remember Sago said that "github shows the date code was developed (git commit), not the date the code was made available (git push)"... but this is even worse, it's hard to figure out a pull request has been updated at all and with which changes from its previous version...
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 01:09:58 am by Gig » Logged

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Gig
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« Reply #434 on: November 24, 2016, 02:59:23 am »

I fully support the functionality as implemented in Pull Request #11 right now. Aside from a few changes I have requested to the code I would like to merge that as soon as possible so that we have something real to talk about. I think we are in the "scope creep" phase right now. Everything we do will just make it worse.
I had to search about the "scope creep" term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scope_creep
You're right, we need to actually test the feature before deciding if it's okay or if needs further tuning...

However, I had a few minutes free, so I drew a few ideas about possible icons for specific kinds of death (apart from the usual "weapons" ones). I know that Fromhell said they are not really necessary and a skull can be enough, but considering that there will be no console output to see the details if one is interested, maybe some more specific icons may be welcome.
Just brainstorming a few ideas...
Note 1: "juiced" does not use the generic skull, it uses the prox mines icon (due to being the only weapon capable of doing it, IIRC), which may be enough. Hovewer an apposite icon would not harm noone.
Note 2: Probably I'm not good enough at drawing to make the actual icons, even if these are very simple...

(PS: I like so much now we have nightly builds! It's nice to view changes at the code and being able to actually test them the next day!).
PPS: I know this post is not the top of coherence... Please forgive me... Smiley
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 03:06:12 am by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #435 on: November 24, 2016, 11:25:42 am »

I think I made all the changes requested. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You did not post a comment and I do not get notifications on code changes on pull requests. (Surprised me a bit because I thought that I would receive them).

It mostly looks good but the space indentation looks funny in Github:

The rest of the code uses tabs and new code should match it.


Where do I find the intemediate commits?  Undecided
They are gone. I asked 1pixel to squash the commits so that the entire working feature is in one commit in the history.

Sometimes the individual commits gives value in the history because they can show intent (especially if it is many small changes that makes sense individually).
I don't normally ask for squashing but in this case I found it a lot easier to read and understand as one commit.
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« Reply #436 on: November 24, 2016, 11:56:14 am »

I've seen the gamecode use both tabs and spaces. I personally prefer spaces and would just remove tabs on the rest of the code.
What is the agreement, we use tabs from now on?

I should probably change to tabs on the rest of my code then as the difference is also seen.

Maybe you didn't get the notification because I used amend and force push.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 12:13:19 pm by 1pixel » Logged
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« Reply #437 on: November 24, 2016, 12:17:11 pm »

I've seen the gamecode use both tabs and spaces. I personally prefer spaces and would just remove tabs on the rest of the code.
What is the agreement, we use tabs from now on?

In "game" there are 33967 lines with tabs vs 4273 with spaces.
In "cgame" it is 18146 vs 1203
(I only counted c-files)

Most of the spaces have been added by either me or karl.kuglin.
I have compared with ioq3 where the numbers are even stronger towards tabs.

I plan to convert all current lines with spaces to tabs and enforce it with Travis.
I'll also look into adding a editorconfig file to get the editors to change to the relevant style.
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Gig
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« Reply #438 on: November 26, 2016, 04:22:10 am »

Due to real life, I need a couple of days before testing the feature.

In the meantime, I thought about a thing: what happens in case the game cannot find one of the icons specified? Crashes? Shows only playernames? Shows a black square in the place of the icon?
Do you think it should include a fallback mechanism to use generic skull icon in place of specified icon, in case the specified icon does not exist? Or is that (e.g. a mod author fault) a so remote possibility that there is no need to foresee a such countermeasure?
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« Reply #439 on: November 26, 2016, 05:40:58 am »

In the meantime, I thought about a thing: what happens in case the game cannot find one of the icons specified? Crashes? Shows only playernames? Shows a black square in the place of the icon?
Do you think it should include a fallback mechanism to use generic skull icon in place of specified icon, in case the specified icon does not exist? Or is that (e.g. a mod author fault) a so remote possibility that there is no need to foresee a such countermeasure?
All shaders must exist or it will fallback to the "missing texture" shader.
This is the expected behavior. A missing shader is a bug and must be fixed.

If a mod author adds a new kind of death and does not touch the kill rendering code it will default to the skull icon. The mod author is not required to provide a new icon. This can be considered a fallback.
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« Reply #440 on: November 26, 2016, 07:29:21 am »

Okay, then. I was not sure if the generic "missing shader" texture applied to 2d stuff, too. Okay.
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« Reply #441 on: November 26, 2016, 11:13:17 am »

Speaking of invalid shaders, here's a shader file which points to a bunch of existing OA0 textures so the new particle effects can be rendered (with cg_leiEnhancement 1 and the new engine).  Wouldn't mind if this shader is part of OAX nightlies
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« Reply #442 on: November 27, 2016, 06:49:41 am »

I have added the shader file to the nightly build (https://github.com/sago007/docker_openarena_gamecode_builder/commit/8b368d695f52a67792cdf83428a2ad9b36863d94).
It will be added in the next build.

I also added a fix to the engine to prevent the particles from crashing in Linux 64 bit.
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Gig
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« Reply #443 on: November 28, 2016, 02:48:14 am »

Done a few tests with Nightly builds 2016-11-27 (both OAX and engine).
About cg_leienhancement 1: Cool rocket explosion! (See screenshots)
And what a bright blood!

However, a small thing I noticed: just like in 0.8.x, with the leienhancement option active, cg_oldplasma 0 does not work (its particles effects are not shown). Maybe it's intentional, maybe not...
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 03:19:49 am by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #444 on: November 28, 2016, 03:11:44 am »

Finally tried the iconographic obituary.
I like it! Good job 1pixel!  Smiley

Things I noticed:
- The text seems semi-trasparent. I can guess it's made give less distraction, but considering the small size, it's not so comfortable to read. In the first screenshot, you can see this text compared with chat text above. Guys (and gals), what are your opinions about this?
- Line scrolling does not work exactly like the upper notification area. In the new area, new text appears in the lower line even if it's the only one, and scrolls one line up only when there is another line to show. I'm not saying this is a problem, I'm just saying I noticed it is a bit different.
- Lower left position is okay for me. The only problem I noticed is when the score table is shown (TAB key, dying or match end), as you can see in the second screenshot. Not sure about how to deal with it. Note: I also wanted to try this with UI3, but score table is not shown at all there yet, at least in FFA mode! UPDATE: Maybe it's some problem with my config... I will try later, after deleting my oax_m config... as some days ago I think I saw score table there, in a team-based mode...

Other random bits:
- I tried with all supported values cg_obituaryoutput from 0 to 3. As stated before, maybe a "no obituary at all" option, if existing, would have more sense to be at value 0 instead of 3? And I would like an option to have both icons and console output: that would be useful for testing purposes, like 1pixel did in his second screenshot here.
- Nobody said anything about those obituary icons ideas?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 04:56:56 am by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #445 on: November 28, 2016, 04:09:24 am »

- The text seems semi-trasparent. I can guess it's made give less distraction, but considering the small size, it's not so comfortable to read. In the first screenshot, you can see this text compared with chat text above. Guys (and gals), what are your opinions about this?

I agree it should have a shaded (if that's the correct term) box added in the background. I'll try adding it.

- Line scrolling does not work exactly like the upper notification area. In this area, new text appears in the lower line even if it's the only one, and scrolls one line up only when there is another line to show. I'm not saying this is a problem, I'm just saying I noticed it is a bit different.

Watching two random videos on YouTube, I see Quake Live and Xonotic use different ways. A minor issue, if the majority wants it the other way, I'll change it.

- Lower left position is okay for me. The only problem I noticed is when the score table is shown (TAB key, dying or match end), as you can see in the second screenshot. Not sure about how to deal with it. Note: I also wanted to try this with UI3, but score table is not shown at all there yet, at least in FFA mode!

Problem of overlapping persists with the UI3. I see the solution in either hiding it when the scoreboard is shown, or moving it by default to right top corner for the time being as Lei suggest (although in top right there is a timer, fps display in the way).
With starting an instant action match I can see the new score table.


- I tried with all supported values cg_obituaryoutput from 0 to 3. As stated before, maybe a "no obituary at all" option, if existing, would have more sense to be at value 0 instead of 3? And I would like an option to have both icons and console output: that would be useful for testing purposes, like 1pixel did in his second screenshot here.

I'll add this option, and move the no obituary to 0.

- Nobody said anything about those obituary icons ideas?

I like the water/lava/slime. But how would you distinguish between being pushed and falling into on your own. Two icons?
Juiced icons could after some artwork look fine.
Falling/teleport/crush could be a bit harder to display. These may be a bit too small to be seen what they're about.
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« Reply #446 on: November 28, 2016, 04:53:05 am »

I agree it should have a shaded (if that's the correct term) box added in the background. I'll try adding it.
Do you mean that HUD output looks this way (a little "grayed") by default, and there is no way to tell it to just use the brighter color tones it uses in console output?

Quote
But how would you distinguish between being pushed and falling into on your own. Two icons?
Just like all other kinds of "assisted suicides", I woud say...

Player y <splat icon> Player x = pushed
<splat icon> player x = falling by our own.

Isn't just like this? Am I missing something?

Quote
Falling/teleport/crush could be a bit harder to display. These may be a bit too small to be seen what they're about.
Uhm... maybe when using the iconographic output (not the text just moved to lower left) we could use a slightly bigger font size, to show also icons a bit bigger? Just an idea...
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« Reply #447 on: November 28, 2016, 05:58:04 am »

I agree it should have a shaded (if that's the correct term) box added in the background. I'll try adding it.
Do you mean that HUD output looks this way (a little "grayed") by default, and there is no way to tell it to just use the brighter color tones it uses in console output?

Okay, then it's just changing the font transparency. Got it.

Quote
But how would you distinguish between being pushed and falling into on your own. Two icons?
Just like all other kinds of "assisted suicides", I woud say...

Player y <splat icon> Player x = pushed
<splat icon> player x = falling by our own.

Isn't just like this? Am I missing something?

My mistake.
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« Reply #448 on: November 28, 2016, 06:24:14 am »

About UI3 missing score table, it's also missing many other things, if you change "hud style" from the GUI, at the moment... requiring using console to restore original behavior. Posted in the UI3 thread.

PS:
I'll add this option,
Thank you very much.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 07:22:35 am by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #449 on: December 09, 2016, 03:46:34 am »

Some feedback about cg_leiEnhancement (tried firing weapons):
1) Very cool.
2) Maybe the radius of the blasts (e.g. bfg explosion) is too big? Maybe it should not be so excessively larger than the actual damage radius?
3) Sometimes animation explosion (noticed with bfg explosion and maybe also with prox mines explosion) is played correctly, but at times it is not played at all, only the "inner part" is played or it looks played twice.
4) Maybe the smoke trail of the grenades does disturb your view a bit more than in standard view?
5) Very cool.

Note for testers: the OAX (OA3) version of cg_leiEnhancement requires nightly build binaries; enabling it with 0.8.8 binaries causes a crash with "bad cgame system trap" error.

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