am_lavaarena & 2 CTF versions

[Neon_Knight]

I'll fix those, thanks for the info.
It's strange, I could move myself very well as a spec.

CTF XL version ready to go: (I'm tired of those tiny clusters (*))

* Playercount: up to 9 players per team.
* Weapons: Shotgun, (given at start) Rocket Launcher, Plasma Gun, (given at start) Railgun, Lightning Gun, BFG10K, Nailgun.
* Runes: Doubler, Scout, Guard & Ammo Regen, two of each per base.
* Powerups: Regeneration.
* Holdables: Kamikaze.
* Others: Red Armor & health. (Maybe I should spread more health in the level?)

Notes:
* I've tried to keep r_speeds in a relatively slow number, (NOTE: when I wrote this the map had hints, but due to the new changes I removed all those hints and didn't hinted the map since then) to favour constant FPS on lightmap settings, however, I think the level is (very) poor on details. What should I add to it?
* Main changes from the new lavaarena: the window to defend the flag, replacing the teleporter and dead end (the only way to reach Battle Suit this time is by RJ to it). Also, structural changes to improve VIS.
* There's an annoying tiny cluster. I can't get rid of it. -.- This is bspc output, without clusterportals:

cluster 1 has 380 reachability areas
cluster 2 has 9 reachability areas
cluster 3 has 368 reachability areas

These are other changes from am_lavaarena:

* Removed windows.
* New passage, parallel to the one starting from the crossing and ending in the Railgun side, this one ends at the entrance to the flag base.

You have the linkage and screenage at the first post as always.

[Ivan_D]

<Ivan> yay, 60 fps ftw
<Ivan> mega in the middle, cool
<Ivan> battle suit also
<Ivan> and omg, bfg ammo
<Ivan> aha, so this is where bfg is, cool
<Neon_Knight> yeah, but he needs comments about his map, things which he should improve and stuff like that
<Neon_Knight> yeah, that place where the bfg is shouldn't interfere with the gameplay of the map
<Neon_Knight> that's why bs and bfg are in their places
<Ivan> I'll just copypaste the chat from here later
<Ivan> well...
<Ivan> I can tell u now what noobs say when they see bfg in someone's hands on that map
<Neon_Knight> it's not too easy to fool with if you have a railgun and see someone getting off from the lava pool
<Ivan> true
<Ivan> eslecially about railgun
<Ivan> *especially
<Ivan> the center will be a cmaping space
<Ivan> *camping
<Ivan> and all these looooong corridors too
<Ivan> camp4fun1
<Ivan> !
<Neon_Knight> lol
<Neon_Knight> there's a lot of work to be done yet
<Ivan> well, I can't say I don't like the map. It's kinda fun
<Neon_Knight> I thought on doing a second level
<Ivan> omg it's large enough to be played 4x5 ot 5x5 already
<Ivan> wil all these weapons
<Ivan> *with
<Ivan> *4x4 (what's wrong with me tonight?)
<Neon_Knight> we all has those moments -.-
<Neon_Knight> *have
<Ivan> ok, standart rj from the flag to rail window... then 2 RJs over the lava pool in center
<Ivan> rail window jump is cool btw
<Neon_Knight> like nexuiz' laser jump?
<Ivan> oh, I haven't played nexuiz
<Neon_Knight> I played a bit of it, too much laserjump lol
<Neon_Knight> there's a dedicadted server where I live
<Neon_Knight> but I didn't played so much of it
<Neon_Knight> (so much little time -.-)
<Ivan>
<Ivan> phew, doesn't look like that flagrunner-singler would be able to do much here
* Evil|ObaMa has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5/20090624025744])
<Ivan> the map is huge, has big wide open spaces for campers (w00t) and...
<Ivan> and the chances to die in the middle are quite high
<Ivan> fo teamwork ftw
<Ivan> *so
<Neon_Knight> I don't know what more to add to this map, a second level maybe? over the actual level, that even would increase the supported size and have the possibility to add more weapons, even 2 of some of the actual weapons in the map...
<Neon_Knight> or what more to do
<Ivan> maybe teleporters?
<Ivan> the mape is HUGE
<Neon_Knight> from where to where?
<Ivan> don't know yet
<Ivan> have to think about it
<Ivan> ha, lol, can't plasmaclimb to battle suit because of the edging
<Neon_Knight> actually there's a team of mh-regeneration in the middle area
<Neon_Knight> they have a delay of 30 secods of spawn
<Neon_Knight> *seconds
<Ivan> yep
<Ivan> it's good
<Ivan> actually no teleporters... I've just made a cap for 11 seconds
<Neon_Knight> scoring in this map won't be easy, so I wanted to give some chance to the carrier
<Ivan> any teleporters would break the things
<Neon_Knight> I was thinking on a good position for a teleporter
<Neon_Knight> if I decide to implement the second level
<Neon_Knight> it would go from the middle-wall entrance on the second floor to the Railgun area
<Ivan> then all flagcap will be: take the flag, jump into the teleporter, jump out for other side, jump to your teleporter, jump out, make the cap
<Ivan> kinda easy
<Ivan> are you serious about second level?
<Neon_Knight> well, I don't know how it would end until I see how to implement it
<Neon_Knight> I didn't beared in mind weaponjumps
<Ivan> except jumps to battle suit and bfg ammo
<Neon_Knight> yep
<Neon_Knight> there's a lot of things to do, but ATM I'm happy with how the map is
<Ivan> map is very well
<Ivan> lol, clumzy flagrunners like myself will frequently take hot relaxing lava bathes
<Ivan> <Neon_Knight> there's a lot of things to do, but ATM I'm happy with how the map is | like what?
<Neon_Knight> tbh... aside from hinting and botplay, I don't know
<Neon_Knight> my idea is to make this map to have constant FPS
<Neon_Knight> in lightmap mode
<Ivan> oh
<Neon_Knight> for example 125fps constant... without any downside
<Neon_Knight> r_speeds really lower
<Neon_Knight> but without having to drop detail
<Neon_Knight> talking about detail I see this map as very very lower in that part
<Neon_Knight> empty
<Ivan> sry, dunno about r_speeds, never used it
<Ivan> but better fps would be nice
<Ivan> wooh, I need to train that rj: from middle 25 hp ball to the corridor with plasma
<Ivan> and btw that's hinting.. not hunting
<Ivan> what does hinting mean?
<Ivan> you should add an award for throwing bots into lava pools with bfg :DD
<Ivan> so fun lol
<Neon_Knight> hinting is something from level editing
<Ivan> so it's understandable only by u, ok
<Neon_Knight> hint brushes "tells" the compiler where to (not) put portals, the less portals in the map the better for vis
<Neon_Knight> portals draws the line where the renderer renderizes geometry in-game
<Ivan> ok, enough
<Neon_Knight> without hinting the entire map is unnecesarily drawn
<Neon_Knight> wasting fps and that kind of stuff
<Neon_Knight> that have a lot to do with FPS, some areas will be a pain in the ass even with vertex light lol
<MIOW> <Neon_Knight> MIOW: my map? | i was replying to: <dash9> Neon_Knight, what does "XL" in CTF XL mean?
<MIOW> just a guess
<Neon_Knight> long story (?)
<MIOW> O.o
<Neon_Knight> the original LavaArena was a small map
<Neon_Knight> the original LavaArena DM had only the flag base
<Ivan> <Neon_Knight> that have a lot to do with FPS, some areas will be a pain in the ass even with vertex light lol | ok
<Neon_Knight> with the time it increased, and it included the center area of XL
<Neon_Knight> the original lavactf (not lavactfxl) was that flag base mirrored
<Neon_Knight> it's still that way
<Neon_Knight> it's a very very small map
<Neon_Knight> then PsiScythe suggested me to add a big area to that map
<Neon_Knight> lol that was 6 or 7 months ago, in 0.8.0 time
<Neon_Knight> ahm... 8 or 9 should I say
<Neon_Knight> whoa... time goes very fast o.O
<Ivan> indeed
<Neon_Knight> the original lavaarena was my second map for OA
<Neon_Knight> I was playing a bit with original q3 maps on oax lol
<Ivan> w00t, bfg jumps in battle suit are so fun

[Neon_Knight]

b4, only entity changes.

- Fixed info_player_deathmatches, so there're startpoints for both Elimination and normal gametypes. It fixes the "couldn't find spawnpoint" error in the gametypes.
- Deleted hintings.
- Many other fixings.

[Neon_Knight]

am_lavaarena-b5:
  * Fixed items not showing up on SP.

am_lavactfxl-b4:
  * BS & BFG ammo aren't anymore on the area's entrance. Those were moved to separate platforms. There's a Regen for each team in their old place.
  * No RG ammo. I was in doubt of pulling Ammo Regen out of the map too.
  * Minor changes.

[Neon_Knight]

I've ended not so much happy/convinced with the old LavaArena's design, (it was very messy with vis anyways) so I'm redoing it from scratch, with a totally different look, more industrial. Here're some screenshots of the new LavaCTF. It'll be nice for 4-5 players per team, I guess. (4 is my estimation, the passages are narrower compared with the older versions) And of corse, doing LavaArena after them.

When I finish this one, I'll make LavaCTFXL with bigger matches in mind, let's say, 8-10 players per team. I think it'll run well that way.



1-General vision of the map w/o caulk.
2-Center area.
3-Blue base. (Storage depot)
4-Red base. (Research labs, NG area)

As you can see on the screens, I'm doing one side as a "research lab"-ish, and the other as a "storage depot"-ish area. I'm trying to make both sides as balanced as possible, anyways. I don't have any idea on what textures and stuff walls (and ceilings) will have ATM, but the floor is ready.

I'm wondering what can I put on the middle, instead of the classic "Quad-Armor-Haste-or-Regen" pattern. NG will be in the map, (It'll take both RG & SG place) RG won't be there. RL for sure, and I'm wondering if I should put PG, GL and/or LG here. I'll add few runes. (I'm thinking on 2xAmmo Regen & 2xGuard per base)

[Neon_Knight]

If everything is fine, tonight I'll be delivering the new lavactf, otherwise, you'll have to wait until tomorrow... :/

[Neon_Knight]

Uploaded am_lavactf2. Also deleted the older am_lava* maps.
There's a lot of glitches to be fixed, but I can't get rid of many of them. -.-

I'll be doing am_lavaarena and am_lavactfxl later... maybe am_lavactfxl will have a new layout, different from the older one.

[Udi]

It's pretty, I like the colors and different design of the bases. The two nailguns and additional nailgun ammos are too much for the narrow corridors. They can stay on the bases but with reduced ammo (5 with the weapon pickup, no additional ammo) and higher respawn time, or place only one in the red armor room.

[Neon_Knight]

Yep, I guess I'll be replacing them with another weapon. :/ There's a Guard by base, anyways.

[Udi]

Yep, I guess I'll be replacing them with another weapon. :/ There's a Guard by base, anyways.

I've played with cg_runes 0. [offtopic]I was thinking that maybe there should be another variable to entirely switch off TA features. With a guard nailgun is not a problem anymore, and doubler makes any weapon as strong as the nailgun. The same goes for holdables. In 0.8.5 oa_ctf4ish has a kamikaze, but there wasn't in 0.8.1. Well it's fun, but how can I get the pure vanilla Q3 experience?[/offtopic]

[Neon_Knight]

oa_ctf4ish in 0.8.1 had a kamikaze too. I didn't saw any change to oa_ctf4ish in 0.8.5.

I've proposed to sago many times the cvar g_classicmode 1 to remove (or at least change) TA stuff, and there're plenty of other CTF maps in OA which already gave the vq3 experience. (I'm thinking on oasago2 and pul1ctf)

Removing stuff because of map unbalancing and issues is a good reason. Removing because "X don't belong to OA/Q3"... (where X is not only TA's stuff, it's also teleporter, medkit and specially the BFG) well... I fail to see it as nothing but a purist comment.

I had some plans for the other maps I'm thinking on redoing, anyways. Maybe some of them won't have TA stuff.

[Cacatoes]

It had, but only enabled with missionpack mod on.
Play it on any 0.8.1 baseoa server, there is no kamikaze available.
Like Udi, I noticed it was here with 0.8.5, and I wish there was a way to remove it (I said myself "of course there has to be some cvar for it", so I didn't point the issue before )

[Neon_Knight]

Anyways, we have already a topic to discuss about TA's stuff: http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=3378.0

[sago007]

(I said myself "of course there has to be some cvar for it", so I didn't point the issue before )

Of course there is.
All items has checks if the cvar "disable_[ITEMNAME]" has been set and is non-zero.

Like:
/set disable_holdable_kamikaze 1

[Falkland]

All items has checks if the cvar "disable_[ITEMNAME]" has been set and is non-zero.

Like:
/set disable_holdable_kamikaze 1

I guess every items could be even replaced too :

Code:

/set replace_holdable_kamikaze info_player_deathmatch 

This should replace kamikaze with a spawn point ( Source : NoGhost forum -> http://forums.noghost.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=9;t=1996;hl=add+and+spawn )

[chaoticsoldier]

I finally got a chance to test am_lavactf2 today. I think it's great. I really like the look and it plays well.

One small thing though: The enemy flag doesn't return instantly if you fall into the lava while holding it.

[Neon_Knight]

There're lots of things to fix yet. I almost forgot what brushes goes into the lava. :S

[Neon_Knight]

These are the changes I'm doing right now:

* Added another Guard by base. That should help the players to control the Nailgun a bit more.
* Fixed some texture alignment problems. I don't know how the heck to get rid of those glitches at walls in the curved passages. -.-
* Specific spawnpoints for One Flag CTF & Elimination. Everyone starts in the same area.
* Added spawnpoints for Double DOM. Needs more spread, anyways.
* Items and objectives (flags and skulls) don't stay on lava anymore. (I almost forgot how to do this!!! -.-)
* Replaced the Nail ammo box on flag bases with MG ammo.

I wanted to replace the Red armor in the middle area (with the two Guards per base and the health around the map, I think the armor overbloats it) with another item. So far, this is what I think:

- Teleporter => My first candidate, but I don't know how much useful it would be, because after teleporting flag carriers loses the flag. Maybe for escaping from the lava, or using a trick which is already on some of the TA maps: going to a separate area where there's a big goodie, and two teleporters going back to the arena. I don't know anyways.
- Invisibility => Can be a good candidate, but I don't know.
- Invulnerability => Maybe, depending on the model done for it. (Noob Sauce and Snickersnack were doing a model for it, but it was left in hell :/ and it seems that nobody would care to do a model for that effect... damn puritanism... -.-) It shouldn't be used to block a passage, so maybe not.
- Removing one of the two Guard? This isn't an idea I like too much, anyways.
- Quad damage => No. There's a Doubler by base already. Also would overpower any weapon in combination, not just the Nailgun.
- Haste => No. Small map. That goes also for Scout.
- Regeneration => same with the Red Armor and the Medkit. Too much health and the two Guards.
- Flight => No. Just no.
- Kamikaze => No. Too small map.

I'm thinking also to get rid of the Ammo Regen, to help in controlling the Nailgun a bit more.

[Neon_Knight]

I'm trying a new twist to the map:

Aside of all the changes already mentioned above, I've replaced the Red Armor with a Teleporter. Above of the center area, there's a new "floor", only accesible with this item. There's a Prox Launcher here, which can only be picked up by the P-Tele user, with also two triggers teleporting back to the arena. This Prox has 30 seconds of respawn, and 5 mines by default. Teams will have something to time up, and the weapon should be used wisely in bases. (I'm not sure about its actual utility anyways, with two Guards the Prox Launcher is almost useless in this map - there's near to no chance of mine spamming, unless someone picks up the Ammo Regen, and even if that happens, anyways, the ammo regenerates slowly and won't regenerate if the weapon is being used, AFAIK)

I'll upload the map so you can test. And PLEASE!!! test this map with EVERYTHING ON!!! That's the best (and only? Although I don't like the "only ways") way to see if this map works well in its actual state. I know that most of the people who plays OA/Q3/QL online hates TA stuff, but well, I try to make them to be in line with the maps, and it's good to have some variety.

[Neon_Knight]

Uploaded... enjoy and comment. ^^

Changes:
a2 changes:
- Added one Guard per base
- Fixed texture issues
- Specific spawnpoints for Elimination & 1FCTF
- DD Spawnpoints
- Items and objectives don't stay in lava anymore
- Replaced a Nail ammo box per base with MG ammo
- Replaced Red Armor with Personal Teleporter. Also added a new area only accesible by Tele, which has Prox Launcher.

[cosmo]

Which map? Downloadlink? I took the only one in your first post (which was not obvious to be a download link). It's the new CTF version.

Tested in vanilla OA CTF against bots.
The new layout looks well made and clean. Good work. Looks like a 'Descent 3' map.

But are you serious?
The whole structure of the map seems to be boring. Only long corridors and exactly 3 rooms. Almost no vertical action. What I did not like about am_underworks is killing this map for me. Get the Rocketlauncher and kill everybody in your way because there is no escape. If you like to create a fun map this is definitely a go.

So I do not get the deal about the teleporter. Only to access the proxy mine launcher? I'd prefer a RA because it is the key to successfully retrieving the flag of the enemy base.

Btw: How do you control where the teleporter item leads to? In oa_koth2 I got the feeling it is a random player spawn.

[Udi]

Tested in vanilla OA CTF against bots.

He specifically asked us for testing it with all the TA stuff, runes etc, because that can change the whole gameplay. With the two guards there's no need for the RA, and the Rocket Launcher also loses some of it's power if played with runes.

I don't think it's boring, even with bots if you don't focus the enemy can make some easy and incredibly fast captures, there's enough routes to the bases so you won't be able to catch the carrier in time. Not to mention if he/she has a guard . So I think it's a cool map, simple but fast and deadly.

I have two suggestions:

• The proximity mines cannot stop a player in their own, but if you open up the lavapit in the middle, than maybe the mines can knock the enemies into the lava. The middle platform used in lavactfxl was a good one, maybe you could use that. With more deadly lava, the map eventually will get more lavaish
• Change the flag platforms from a 4 legged platfrom to a 3 legged one, with equal 120° angle. Often the flagcarrier is fast and you can only catch him on the platform close to capturing, but no matter if you push him with the nails or rockets, he/she will be pushed to the other leg on the opposite site. With 120° angles if you push the carrier from behind then he/she will fall into the lava.

[Neon_Knight]

Which map? Downloadlink? I took the only one in your first post (which was not obvious to be a download link). It's the new CTF version.

I'm focusing as of now on lavactf2, that's why the other two has "Coming soon", because I didn't want them to be played because of being older versions.

Tested in vanilla OA CTF against bots.
The new layout looks well made and clean. Good work. Looks like a 'Descent 3' map.

Which version? 0.8.1? 0.8.5? Did you've tested with Runes and the remaining TA stuff? This map has pretty much emphasis on that.

But are you serious?
The whole structure of the map seems to be boring. Only long corridors and exactly 3 rooms. Almost no vertical action. What I did not like about am_underworks is killing this map for me. Get the Rocketlauncher and kill everybody in your way because there is no escape. If you like to create a fun map this is definitely a go.

I thought on this map as a "beginner" map, some kind of "how-to-play-CTF" one, with some extra stuff. Small CTF matches with no more than 6 people, 3 by team. (And I'm not so sure if 3 is too much) That can go for the other modes as well.

So I do not get the deal about the teleporter. Only to access the proxy mine launcher? I'd prefer a RA because it is the key to successfully retrieving the flag of the enemy base.

Btw: How do you control where the teleporter item leads to? In oa_koth2 I got the feeling it is a random player spawn.

The mappers on Team Arena only put one info_player_deathmatch/start in the whole map, (look at Scornforge, mpteam4) which has been placed on the entrance to the "secret" area. In the TA mapping manual which comes with GTKR it states that in the Design Tips section.

BTW, the Tele can be used also to escape from lava, whereas the RA just makes the player to receive very few damage. Not only controlling the Tele would gave the player access to the mines, it also helps in the worst scenario.

Both this map and reptctf11 are my proofs that TA stuff can have its place on OA as well. am_underworks2 is my comp-map attemp, (blitzkrieg3 too, both boczeq and I wanted it to be a comp-map) despite that the least thing I (we) have is user feedback from comp players.

[cosmo]

He specifically asked us for testing it with all the TA stuff, runes etc, because that can change the whole gameplay. With the two guards there's no need for the RA, and the Rocket Launcher also loses some of it's power if played with runes.

I don't think it's boring, even with bots if you don't focus the enemy can make some easy and incredibly fast captures, there's enough routes to the bases so you won't be able to catch the carrier in time. Not to mention if he/she has a guard . So I think it's a cool map, simple but fast and deadly.

Just relying on TA items does not do it for me. The whole layout (not the design) is more important in my point of view. As a beginners environment to learn it is simple and good. Then we need an altered singleplayer to get beginners play this!
I fear the whole thing is too fast for 'lets set up a proximity mine trap' tactics. You delay the access to the proxy mine launcher by long teleporter respawn times. So this item is of occasional usage- one rocketjump will get you out of business which is way easier to accomplish with Guard. Although the idea is great. It reminds me of doing a map full of traps which can be activated by players. *snicker*
Still the tools of trade are learning how to us a RL here.

[Neon_Knight]

He specifically asked us for testing it with all the TA stuff, runes etc, because that can change the whole gameplay. With the two guards there's no need for the RA, and the Rocket Launcher also loses some of it's power if played with runes.

I don't think it's boring, even with bots if you don't focus the enemy can make some easy and incredibly fast captures, there's enough routes to the bases so you won't be able to catch the carrier in time. Not to mention if he/she has a guard . So I think it's a cool map, simple but fast and deadly.

Just relying on TA items does not do it for me. The whole layout (not the design) is more important in my point of view. As a beginners environment to learn it is simple and good. Then we need an altered singleplayer to get beginners play this!
I fear the whole thing is too fast for 'lets set up a proximity mine trap' tactics. You delay the access to the proxy mine launcher by long teleporter respawn times. So this item is of occasional usage- one rocketjump will get you out of business which is way easier to accomplish with Guard. Although the idea is great. It reminds me of doing a map full of traps which can be activated by players. *snicker*
Still the tools of trade are learning how to us a RL here.

I don't know how to reply this... so instead, I'm going to ask you something...

It's me, or you're relying ONLY (or at least TOO MUCH) on the online competitive side?