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Martian
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« on: January 15, 2010, 07:03:26 PM »

I don't know if this is possible, or desired.

In chess you have your rating, say 1400, and play with players from 1300 to
1500. That is your level, like kindergarten kid play against another kindergarten kid, right?

Here's my idea.

One server ring with web page where you register your name and get your
password. On this servers you cannot log if you are too strong or too weak.
Every skill level have another server.  Every frag and flag you make adjust
your rating somehow. When fraged too. Is it possible?

My guess, 3 skill levels will be enough. Beginners, average players and pros.


Now another thing

Wouldn't  be nice if  when you spot a total beginner, helped him.

I've seen players not using a mouse, walking, and handicap messed up.
What about this, an oa patrol in search for beginners and trying to
redirect to one server where beginners play.

Will this help?  Any idea?


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pulchr
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2010, 03:37:03 AM »

well, the handicap system ought to be explained somewhere. i've seen lots of new players believing that adjusting the handicap will help them...
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MIOW
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2010, 04:45:51 AM »

Would be better to remove it from the menu altogether :p
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Bane
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2010, 07:22:22 AM »

I don't know if this is possible, or desired.

In chess you have your rating, say 1400, and play with players from 1300 to
1500. That is your level, like kindergarten kid play against another kindergarten kid, right?

Here's my idea.

One server ring with web page where you register your name and get your
password. On this servers you cannot log if you are too strong or too weak.
Every skill level have another server.  Every frag and flag you make adjust
your rating somehow. When fraged too. Is it possible?

My guess, 3 skill levels will be enough. Beginners, average players and pros.


Now another thing

Wouldn't  be nice if  when you spot a total beginner, helped him.

I've seen players not using a mouse, walking, and handicap messed up.
What about this, an oa patrol in search for beginners and trying to
redirect to one server where beginners play.

Will this help?  Any idea?




The skill matching thingy you talk about reminds me of the tiers system in quake live I have heard people talk about it being broken and that even if someone is rated at there same tier they get owned still or the other person is weak. To me games like quake and ones based off of it require you to take a couple of good ass whippings before you can get good and I believe that while you intents are good because you want to shield newbs from getting owned that in the end it will not help them because most want to get better and in order to get better you have to practice and play people better than you.

Martian you also talk about people being mean to beginners well I have played a couple of online game now and this is nothing new to me. I usually just shrug it off as some little brat of a kid not getting what he wants in the real world so he feels the need to come on a game a rage.

Also when you brought up that handicap system that made me remember this first time I used it in practice against the bots I thought it made them weaker but I was sadly mistaken lol.
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sago007
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2010, 08:04:45 AM »

For skill rating system I consider it more of a helping system to give an idea of a fun server to play on.

I would let players control there own rating (let them cheat if they want to, it does not matter as it is only a help).

Players send there rating to the server upon joining the game and gets a delta from the server then the game ends.

The servers broadcast the median to the server list, to give an idea of the current strength of the players on the server. The median is chosen over the mean because it is statistically stable against players having manipulated there rating. Players can see the server rating like +100 or -10 depending on how different it is.

All players start with 10.0f. Max is 1000.0f and min is 0.0f. During the first 20 matches the rating might change up to 1.0f per match and after that the rating might change at most 0.2f per match. The changes are kept small to prevent a bad server from affecting a player's rating too much.

The server should consider the rating of both attacker and target during delta calculations. Calculating the best formulas for doing this is the main problem and since I have no personal interest in doing these calculation I will not start on this system.

I only see this relevant for FFA but I might be wrong. In Quake Live (that I have tried), I find the system well suited for FFA, at least after the initial finding the right rating period. It is not that good for 1v1 either because statistically calculated rankings improve with more players.
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RMF
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2010, 03:49:09 PM »

Quote
first time I used it in practice against the bots I thought it made them weaker but I was sadly mistaken
lol Cheesy
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MIOW
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2010, 05:16:09 PM »

The skill matching thingy you talk about reminds me of the tiers system in quake live I have heard people talk about it being broken and that even if someone is rated at there same tier they get owned still or the other person is weak. To me games like quake and ones based off of it require you to take a couple of good ass whippings before you can get good and I believe that while you intents are good because you want to shield newbs from getting owned that in the end it will not help them because most want to get better and in order to get better you have to practice and play people better than you.
In Quake games experienced player will rape newbie so hard he won't have a chance to understand what's going on. Usually you need to challenge players at your skill level and not too much above to get better gradually.

QL skill matching system doesn't work perfect at times, but still it's far better than nothing. The more people play on regular basis the better it works.
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HelloKitty!
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2010, 03:26:21 PM »

You might be aware of this, but there are combined stats for the [Z] servers available at http://www.zvdk.nl/q3stats/. The server is a bit slow, so don't click unless you're really interested.

I think that the rankings they give are quite accurate. The people at the top deserve to be there, and it's generally a good way to gauge a person's skill level. It's also a good way to get a feeling for how difficult a game will be by glancing at the list of players.

Maybe something could be done based on this. You would really need a global ID to make it work for the entire OA community, but even a name-based thing like this one could be useful as long as enough servers were taking part and the aliases were kept in check somehow. It should be used only as a recommendation, though, like in QuakeLive. People will always find ways to sandbag.

I feel that more needs to be done to make OpenArena accessible to noobies, or it will wither as a niche game for Q3 old fogies. At the moment, noobs have it really hard on most servers and the vast majority lose their interest very quickly. Servers only for noobs are a great idea, and the most important thing that a ranking system would bring. 10-year veterans can handle an ass kicking, but many n00bs learning the controls can't. Having servers dedicated to n00bs and inexperienced players would really help them get a feel of the game and help them get hooked. Such servers should be clearly marked as such. Experienced players could be allowed to join, but under the condition that they take it easy and give the new players pointers and tips. This is difficult to do on a public server where somebody will inevitably join and perform genocide on everyone.
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RMF
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2010, 05:44:31 PM »

I don't know the [z] serverstats specificly, but commonly they are far off for me. I'm often below people i own or vice versa.
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HelloKitty!
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2010, 06:31:03 PM »

They are not perfect, obviously, and they oscillate a lot based on your recent matches, but they are OK as a general guideline for FFA servers.

I can usually have a fun game with people who are around me. Sometimes they are a lot better than me, but even if I end up losing badly, we can usually have a fun game in which I participate fully. I can hang in there, and that's the main point.

With guys much higher than me, it's simply no fun. It's constant respawning and dying 2 seconds later.  With guys much lower than me, it's no fun for them.

So it could be a decent basis for a "Low", "Mid" and "High" level servers. At least it's something that already exists, and the QuakeLive rating system is honestly not much better, especially if you add in the blatant sandbagging (playing way below one's level).
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RMF
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2010, 05:48:26 AM »

Warsaw has something like that, but there players can select which level they are themselves.
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Bane
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2010, 07:35:18 AM »

After thinking it over for a few days maybe I was wrong in my oringal post maybe having a rating system a  would be a good idea.
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Bane
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2010, 07:53:32 AM »

You might be aware of this, but there are combined stats for the [Z] servers available at http://www.zvdk.nl/q3stats/. The server is a bit slow, so don't click unless you're really interested.

I think that the rankings they give are quite accurate. The people at the top deserve to be there, and it's generally a good way to gauge a person's skill level. It's also a good way to get a feeling for how difficult a game will be by glancing at the list of players.

Maybe something could be done based on this. You would really need a global ID to make it work for the entire OA community, but even a name-based thing like this one could be useful as long as enough servers were taking part and the aliases were kept in check somehow. It should be used only as a recommendation, though, like in QuakeLive. People will always find ways to sandbag.

I feel that more needs to be done to make OpenArena accessible to noobies, or it will wither as a niche game for Q3 old fogies. At the moment, noobs have it really hard on most servers and the vast majority lose their interest very quickly. Servers only for noobs are a great idea, and the most important thing that a ranking system would bring. 10-year veterans can handle an ass kicking, but many n00bs learning the controls can't. Having servers dedicated to n00bs and inexperienced players would really help them get a feel of the game and help them get hooked. Such servers should be clearly marked as such. Experienced players could be allowed to join, but under the condition that they take it easy and give the new players pointers and tips. This is difficult to do on a public server where somebody will inevitably join and perform genocide on everyone.

Took a look at my server stats pretty much agree with them for the most part except for some people being in easiest prey. Don't know how some of them got in there becuase they certainly are not east prey to me.
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RMF
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2010, 08:30:39 AM »

If you played few games, there aren't enough stats to collect 25 people or so who you killed most often (or the least often for the hardest preys) Wink
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Martian
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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2010, 04:05:49 AM »


Having servers dedicated to n00bs and inexperienced players would really help them get a feel of the game and help them get hooked. Such servers should be clearly marked as such. Experienced players could be allowed to join, but under the condition that they take it easy and give the new players pointers and tips. This is difficult to do on a public server where somebody will inevitably join and perform genocide on everyone.


One beginners only server, that would be great. There are so many empty
servers out there, can somebody rename one?  Smiley   

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olo
THIS ONE POST HERE SHOULD DO IT.


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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2010, 12:48:21 PM »


I've seen players not using a mouse, walking, and handicap messed up.
What about this, an oa patrol in search for beginners and trying to
redirect to one server where beginners play.

Will this help?  Any idea?

Hi, this is my third post on fps-like gameforum (last 2 i posted about the year 2003) .

Playing OA last 2 years i've noticed amazingly many players doing some fuzz shit: mostly only stading and shooting mg, sometines walking on walls for 5 seconds.
I wonder, who are they? Children under 6 (Nowadays 7 year olders are better than 40 year olders)? Some Linux users, who got the game from repo and try just from curiosity?

But as to help, i tried sometimes, i really did. Mostly to tell them they are playing with 80% handicap. But they don't see the console, coz they are fuzzy, and the circle closes. ;] They should have the text for half the screen size.
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2010, 01:13:02 PM »

I've tried helping players (maninly new american players) over the months with strafing, basic commands, etc. Just they do not seem interested in learning. So as much as some of us want to teach there are those out there that just do not want to learn. But i am always open to helping any new player. Smiley
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pulchr
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2010, 02:03:22 PM »

many new players play with the handicap set at 80 or 90 :/
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WaspKiller
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2010, 08:33:17 PM »

The skill matching thingy you talk about reminds me of the tiers system in quake live...

True and such a system is likely only to work if one entity controls all the servers as with Quake Live.  On games where users can host their own servers, I don't see how you would get a majority of Admins to participate.


...To me games like quake and ones based off of it require you to take a couple of good ass whippings before you can get good and I believe that while you intents are good because you want to shield newbs from getting owned that in the end it will not help them because most want to get better and in order to get better you have to practice and play people better than you.

Absolutely.  However, playing against bots to develop skills, particularly accuracy, timing, splatter damage, and ideal weapon switching, is also very useful.  The message to NooBs should be that if you can't beat the bots then you will probably get raped by players who take their gaming seriously.


You might be aware of this, but there are combined stats for the [Z] servers available at http://www.zvdk.nl/q3stats/...

...You would really need a global ID to make it work for the entire OA community, but even a name-based thing...


VSP Stats has not been updated since 2005 and there are bugs in the rating system.  There is a newer fork (2009) that works with baseoa and has an improved (but not perfect) rating system. Also, VSP does not have to be name based.  It can track players based on a 32 character GUID, IP, and other identifiers.  It simply depends on the log for the underlying game or mod.

New VSP STATS fork

OpenArena Server Stats based on this new VSP Fork

Please note that the baseoa (OpenArena) log does not track map time and date unlike the baseq3 (Quake III) log which is why the Game Stats section of the last link show all maps as having the same start time.

Also, the baseoa log does not track IPs like some Mods, which is why the Player's Country Flag cannot be listed on the main page or in the player's page.


...Having servers dedicated to n00bs and inexperienced players would really help them get a feel of the game and help them get hooked. Such servers should be clearly marked as such. Experienced players could be allowed to join, but under the condition that they take it easy and give the new players pointers and tips. This is difficult to do on a public server where somebody will inevitably join and perform genocide on everyone.


Great idea.  This seems much easier to implement than Martian's suggestion.
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ikao
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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2010, 11:47:17 AM »

I have tried many times to teach n00bs. It is useless. Maybe when they learn they change their Nick as well, but anyways. What I find amusing is that they see the players around them jumping and going around at 1000x their speed and they never even try to bunny hop or rocket jump at all. It is okay to fail if you try.

"Oh the enemy is chasing me. Bah I guess he could get a heart attack or something. Let's walk slowly towards the flag without even trying to shoot at him."

I know I was frustrated when I first joined the game because I was playing in some of the best public servers against players that probably crossed the map in 1/2 the time it takes me even now all while fragging every player in their way. But I did try to bunny hop however useless it was.

They probably are really under 6.

Even for relatively good players that can go faster than a snail, attempt to dodge fire, understand strategy and do not get stuck in every wall, you don't see a real will to learn from players better than them, because you know, we cheat.

Instead, they create their own noob subculture. In the servers I play, there are more than a few players that think that the best way of protecting the flag is standing still waiting to be rescued. Always in the same place for each map. For all of them. They should create a clan.

If you try to tell them they probably think they are really making it more difficult for you, cheater.

At times I think it could be the bots fault. You see many times they follow the exact same route as the bots, probably thinking it is the fastest way to the flag. Guess what, it is also the fastest way to death.

And this is seeing players better than them. I guess my point is, give them a n00b only server and they will never learn at all.
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Bane
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« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2010, 06:03:02 AM »

Well Ikao I think if the bots where given the ability to strafe jump on hurt me plenty up to nightmare then people might learn faster. I sucked big time when I first starting play ctf and just this game in general. I did bunny hop so I was not too nooby lol. Anyway I watched over time as people that where hard to me became easy and the people I thought where really hard before just became kinda hard. I think the problem is some people just flat out don’t wanna get better( i.e ones named Pwner, Owner, Master Pwenr or any one that puts own in there name) because unlike other games quakeist games take work to get good at and some simply don’t wanna put in the work. Anyway try not to get to mad at the noobs and maybe follow them if you know they are going for the flag and guard them along the way. I know maybe that sounds crazy and a sure way to lose but it could help them feel like at least if there teams loses they at least got one capture and that might wanna make them want to get better so they can do it without help. Also there is a server for beginners but no on ever goes on it.
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